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Thread: Carmelo wants out of Denver

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Quote Originally Posted by spreedom View Post
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    I hate the modern NBA "superstar." LeBron, Bosh, Amar'e, and now apparently Paul and Melo. Every one of those players had GMs and teammates who would walk through fire for them and each of them wants to take the easy way out and walk away. I'd respect them if they took massive paycuts to play with other teams but it's always going to be "give me my max dollars and trade me to the exact team that I want to play for" until one of these GMs decides not to play ball. I hope it's the Nuggets' GM and Melo has to "settle" for 5yrs/$85M instead of 6yrs/$120M somewhere else.

    Dirk Nowitzki is such a perfect anti-superstar that I can't help but cheer for him and his imperfect supporting cast. Has any modern player done more with less than Dirk? He's had 10 years of one-dimensional, overrated, old teammates and is still in the conversation every single year as the playoffs begin. I wish more players would follow his example.
    IMO - these shortsited idiots are messing with a setup that has created a multi-BILLION dollar industry.
    This could end up killing the league in the long run.
    Why would any new owner buy in and risk their butt when their star's loyalty is only as long as the 000's you tack on their lifestyle.
    All so they can get another 20 or 30 million dollars added to their estate.
    Dip****s, all of them.

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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Quote Originally Posted by MLB007 View Post
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    IMO - these shortsited idiots are messing with a setup that has created a multi-BILLION dollar industry.
    This could end up killing the league in the long run.
    Why would any new owner buy in and risk their butt when their star's loyalty is only as long as the 000's you tack on their lifestyle.
    All so they can get another 20 or 30 million dollars added to their estate.
    Dip****s, all of them.

    FWIW, Lebron took less money to go the Miami. Lebron didn't leave Cleveland because the Cavs weren't willing to pay. And the Nugz are apparently offering Carmelo a MAX deal that is giving him pause.

    Another thing: The league was arguably at its peak in popularity when two teams in the 80s were responsible for winning 8 out of 10 titles. People say imbalance will kill the league, but in fact the league was arguably at its healthiest during the 80s when it was basically just two teams that mattered.

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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    FWIW, Lebron took less money to go the Miami. Lebron didn't leave Cleveland because the Cavs weren't willing to pay. And the Nugz are apparently offering Carmelo a MAX deal that is giving him pause.

    Another thing: The league was arguably at its peak in popularity when two teams in the 80s were responsible for winning 8 out of 10 titles. People say imbalance will kill the league, but in fact the league was arguably at its healthiest during the 80s when it was basically just two teams that mattered.
    And it was really not much different in the 90's.

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    Default Re: Carmelo Anthony Likely To Leave Denver

    Quote Originally Posted by MLB007 View Post
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    He's a talented chukker. Nothing more.
    Why would you think he was good enough to build a championship team around?
    Here's an Insider article that made the same point several weeks ago - that Carmelo is a inefficient scorer who doesn't make his team better. I'm very high on efficiency and new school stats in general, but I have difficulty squaring that analysis with Denver's improvement after bringing on Melo. Then again, I don't know my Nuggets history very well, so maybe someone can tell me whether drafting Carmelo alone catapulted the Nuggets to elite status, or whether other additions like Billups were as or more influential.

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insid...ory?id=5439653

    Quote Originally Posted by "By Tom Haberstroh, Special to ESPN Insider"
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    Carmelo Anthony has averaged 20 points per game every season since he arrived in the NBA. This past campaign, he became the third-youngest player ever to reach the 10,000-point plateau, behind only Kobe Bryant and LeBron James. And next summer, he could hit the open market as an unrestricted free agent.

    But despite all those gaudy point totals, the three-time All-Star may not even be worth the max deal a team would likely give him in 2011.


    At first glance, Anthony seems like a member of the NBA's elite, largely due to his scoring prowess. But a deeper look at the points column and elsewhere in his game reveals a player who lives on an undeserved reputation more than his actual impact on wins.

    It's tough to argue with his 28.2 points-per-game average in '09-10, but in the game of basketball, how a shooter gets his points is more meaningful than the raw number itself. To see that, we need to peel back the layers.

    Let's first talk about Anthony's shot volume. It's not exactly a secret that 'Melo likes to shoot the rock, but his propensity to launch shots may raise some eyebrows. This past season, no player in the NBA took more shots per minute than Anthony -- not Kobe, not LeBron, not even scoring champ Kevin Durant.

    It may seem obvious that a player worthy of 20 shots per game would have a healthy conversion rate. But in Anthony's case, that's far from the truth. Anthony, in reality, had a below-average field goal percentage (.458) this past season -- and his career percentage (.459) is no different. (The league average is .463.)

    The sharp readers out there will point out that traditional field goal percentage doesn't reflect Anthony's shooting ability, since he launches a healthy dose of 3-pointers, which obviously count more on the scoreboard. That's true. But if you've been paying attention, you know Anthony is not a good shooter from beyond the arc, so that doesn't help his case. As a career .308 percent 3-point shooter, his shot from downtown ranks far below the norm (the average small forward shot .349 last season; Melo shot .316) and any progress he seemingly made in 2008-09, when he shot a career-high .371, disappeared. Even if we incorporate the added point bonus of a 3-pointer, the Syracuse product's shooting percentages are, at best, average.

    It seems that, anyway we slice it, Anthony is a gunner at the core. His exceptional skill on offense is his ability to get his shot off, whether it's attacking the rim or through a patented pull-up jumper on the perimeter. But interestingly enough, Anthony got his shot blocked a whopping 109 times last season, which ranks as the second-highest total in the league, according to Hoopdata.com. Evidently, he doesn't lack perseverance.

    Anthony's case illustrates a fundamental problem in conventional basketball analysis: scoring averages don't reflect efficiency. It's true that Anthony scored 28.2 points per game last season, but it's also true that no player missed more shots as often as Anthony did. Feel free to credit his skill but also pay attention his lofty shot volume and playing time.

    And that's before we consider the disguise of team pace. Since Anthony entered the league, the Denver Nuggets have averaged 95.9 possessions per game, which places them as the third -fastest squad in the NBA over that period of time (and just a fraction behind the high-octane Phoenix Suns). Over that same span, the Nuggets have squeezed out an extra four possessions per game when compared to the average NBA team. Do the math, and the Nuggets have enjoyed nearly 2,000 extra possessions above the norm since Anthony joined the NBA. That's a ton of extra opportunities that can pad the per-game stats used as measuring sticks.

    So after stripping out the inflationary effect of fast pace and boiling down Anthony's numbers to a per possession level, his scoring punch looks even more pedestrian. How pedestrian? Anthony's career offensive rating, an efficiency measure that calculates how many points a player produces per 100 possessions he uses, checks out at 107, which sits right at the league average. For reference, 2003 draft-mates James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh have earned 114, 111, and 113 lifetime offensive ratings, respectively.

    Before we prematurely call Anthony an average player, there is something to be said for the burden of trust. Not every player can still perform while shouldering the heavy scoring responsibility that Anthony has endured. But the Nuggets have probably allowed Anthony to shoot far too often if efficiency -- and winning -- is their goal. In fact, last season Melo was only sixth on his own team in ORtg (110), trailing far behind other legit weapons like Nene (124), Chauncey Billups (120) and Ty Lawson (118).

    Aside from scoring, Anthony doesn't have many other bankable weapons as a player. His rebounding (career 6.2 rpg) is only slightly better than what we'd expect from a small forward, and he doesn't create opportunities for his teammates like Paul Pierce, Wade and James can. Furthermore, he hasn't shown the intensity and dedication on the defensive end that you'd want from a max player.

    In the end, Anthony's game demonstrates why it's important to strip away the biases that color our perceptions of elite players. In Anthony's case, the excessive shot volume, his team's stat-padding tempo and the lack of a true 3-point game makes his 28.2 ppg seem far less impressive than his sparkling reputation would suggest.

    If anything, it's time we moved on from per-game statistics to evaluate our players. Millions of dollars are wasted every year basing player value on the archaic statistics that teams used half a century ago. And someone will surely overpay Anthony and offer him a max contract -- just look at the deals Joe Johnson and Rudy Gay got.

    If the New York Knicks, rumored to be the favorites to land Melo if he decides to leave Denver, are expecting salvation from Anthony next summer, they're going to be very disappointed with their investment. It would be a much a wiser move to throw that cash toward the pursuit of Chris Paul, a real max player.
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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    If he doesnt want to be in denver he doesnt want to be in denver. He has east coast family and wants to be in New York. As a person there is nothing wrong with that.

    Everyone here has to remember these are PEOPLE first basketball players second. They have to do what is best for their lives. THATS IT

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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    everybody wants their cake and to be able to eat it to.

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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Hmm. It's more and more evident to me that we need to cherish the memories we have of Reggie and the Pacers' Finals appearance in 2000. It appears that it's going to become pretty much impossible for small market cities to keep or sign top tier free agents if current trends continue.

    This is VERY different from the Celtics/Lakers/Bulls domination in the '80s and '90s. Those teams were built through the draft, not through players teaming up via free agency. Back then the fans still had hope that their team could draft a couple of stars, keep them, and contend for a championship. Now that's not the case.

    If PG turns out to be a stud, he's gone as soon as his current contract is up. Danny will split ASAP as well... I'm starting to think we should go ahead and trade him since he's already been an all-star. I do think we might be able to keep Hibbert though... I think he'll be a very good center, but probably not top-tier enough to land in a major market. Collison is DEFINITELY gone after his rookie contract is up if he continues to play well... no way we keep that kid.

    Bummer.

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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Quote Originally Posted by Day-V View Post
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    Had LeBron, while he was still in Cleveland, had the talent Carmelo had in Denver, they'd have won the East every year.
    Yes, because the East and the West conferences were so equally loaded with talent.

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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    FWIW, Lebron took less money to go the Miami. Lebron didn't leave Cleveland because the Cavs weren't willing to pay. And the Nugz are apparently offering Carmelo a MAX deal that is giving him pause.

    Another thing: The league was arguably at its peak in popularity when two teams in the 80s were responsible for winning 8 out of 10 titles. People say imbalance will kill the league, but in fact the league was arguably at its healthiest during the 80s when it was basically just two teams that mattered.
    minor point.....remember that Lebron and Bosh went back to the Cavs and Raptors to do a S&T with their respective teams so that they can net them future draft picks at the cost of a 6th year on their contracts. One can look at it as getting SOMETHING for their old team but I look at it as a "get thrleir cake and eat it at the same time" scenario.
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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    After reading that article about Carmelo's scoring, it only confirms my opinion on him. I mentioned it before, he's a better player then Granger but I would keep him over Carmello's ego who IMHO is more overrated.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Quote Originally Posted by bphil View Post
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    If PG turns out to be a stud, he's gone as soon as his current contract is up. Danny will split ASAP as well... I'm starting to think we should go ahead and trade him since he's already been an all-star. I do think we might be able to keep Hibbert though... I think he'll be a very good center, but probably not top-tier enough to land in a major market. Collison is DEFINITELY gone after his rookie contract is up if he continues to play well... no way we keep that kid.

    Bummer.
    Huh?

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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    FWIW, Lebron took less money to go the Miami. Lebron didn't leave Cleveland because the Cavs weren't willing to pay. And the Nugz are apparently offering Carmelo a MAX deal that is giving him pause.

    Another thing: The league was arguably at its peak in popularity when two teams in the 80s were responsible for winning 8 out of 10 titles. People say imbalance will kill the league, but in fact the league was arguably at its healthiest during the 80s when it was basically just two teams that mattered.

    LeBron technically signed a contract for fewer raw dollars than he could have potentially gotten, but you have to factor in that there is no income tax in Florida. That means more of that money is actually going into his pocket despite the fact that the overall contract was like $15M less than the absolute max.

    My point (re: sign-and-trade) is that if I was the owner/GM of a team that was so publically abused and humiliated like the Cavs were, I'd be okay losing one or two low first-rounders if it meant sticking it to LeBron, even if in a small way. (FWIW, if he gets "only" a five-year deal with max raises, it will cost him a good deal of guaranteed money because the annual raises will be lower with a new team and the last year of the contract will be much lower, meaning the subsequent contract he signs afterward would start at a lower figure. And yes, it would absolutely be worth it to me to be that petty considering the degree LeBron went to punk the team on national television.)

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    Default Re: Carmelo Anthony Likely To Leave Denver

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    I dunno. Maybe he's not the very, very best, but he's probably in the tier right below that. He's been one of the most gifted scorers of the decade.

    And if you wouldn't bother building around Carmelo, why then even waste time building around Granger, who is older and not as good as Carmelo?
    he's a very good player to be sure. As talented a scorer as their is. But he's not put a team on his back and carried them like Lebron and Wade have. And that's a huge difference, not a minor one.

    I guess I never thought of the Pacers as choosing to "build" around Danny. He's our best player and would be very good on a multi talented team. But he's not the superstud that you plan the design of the team around. Just a very nice piece in a "general" balanced type team.

    Our cornerstone because we have nothing better to work with.

    And Carmelo is defintely THAT. Maybe one of the best of that "next tier".

    I guess i just think of "build around" as deciding what you want in the other 4 spots BECAUSE of the 1 super talent that you have and deem worthy of building around. Only a very few of those in the league at any given time. And right now, he's not one of them. (IMO)

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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Quote Originally Posted by odeez View Post
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    It does seem to be the trend of the modern player, leaving for greener pastures. He has his eyes on NY Knicks if you believe the rumors. Needless to say I would love to see him with the Pacers or the Warriors here in Oakland.
    So would I....but there is basically a 0% chance of that happening. Hes more likely going to NY or staying in Denver. Theres no way he choses Indy, even if we have the money to sign him
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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Yes, because the East and the West conferences were so equally loaded with talent.
    They have been for probably the past 3-4 years.

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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    FWIW, Lebron took less money to go the Miami. Lebron didn't leave Cleveland because the Cavs weren't willing to pay. And the Nugz are apparently offering Carmelo a MAX deal that is giving him pause.

    Another thing: The league was arguably at its peak in popularity when two teams in the 80s were responsible for winning 8 out of 10 titles. People say imbalance will kill the league, but in fact the league was arguably at its healthiest during the 80s when it was basically just two teams that mattered.
    I meant it mainly about HOW it happened, the best players talking and setting it up. Now it's looking like round 2 is building.
    Why is any owner that isn't a Miami or NY going to invest his a** when you have no control over the best players staying with you?
    It's obvious this generation of stars cares only about winning and not about the PROCESS of becoming a champion.
    Just like the guys at the gym that like to get the best 5 players on 1 team and romp every game with no competition.

    There is a LOT of public resentment out there about this. Doesn't matter if a majority thinks it's ok, that less than 1/2 is still huge tv and marketing numbers.

    I personally would not watch the finals of Miami and another pre-fabbed super team. (Boston not counting anymore)
    Not out of spite, but because I just don't care.
    It's the JOURNEY that matters, not the destination.
    Championships are the final icing on the journey that IS the story of a TEAM building and developing and acquiring just the right part to tweak it.

    This is out the window now.
    And I don't think that's a trivial thing, even in this day of 3 minute attention spans and sound bite news.
    We'll see, but I'd bet on tv ratings being down next year. Especially if they romp.

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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    They have been for probably the past 3-4 years.
    Maybe at the top, but certainly not outside of the top 4 teams. Is SA really on the same level as the Bobcats? Was last years Heat team as good as Utah? The overall level of the West is/was still superior to the East. I would have much rather played in the East, with their schedules.

    I think if you would set up the playoff teams in a round robin format, the western teams would post the better records.

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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Yeah but the bottom 5 teams in the west were TERRIBLE. Outside of the Lakers, the East had the next 3 best teams. Then the west was better from 4-9. Teams 10-15 in the east were much better. So I would say 7 teams in the west were better and 8 teams in the east were better by end of season results. Just because there was an odd skew to where they finished, the two conferences were fairly even. And really the East had three legitimate title contenders, while the west really only had one.

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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    Yeah but the bottom 5 teams in the west were TERRIBLE. Outside of the Lakers, the East had the next 3 best teams. Then the west was better from 4-9. Teams 10-15 in the east were much better. So I would say 7 teams in the west were better and 8 teams in the east were better by end of season results. Just because there was an odd skew to where they finished, the two conferences were fairly even. And really the East had three legitimate title contenders, while the west really only had one.
    I think the list of teams out of the West that could beat Boston is longer than the list of teams from the East that could beat LA.

    My bigger point was that if Cleveland would have played in the West, they wouldn't have gotten to a finals, and would probably would of had less success than Denver did.

    LeBron certainly over-achieved while he was in Cleveland, but I don't think anyone really expected Denver to do more than they did. They were just never good enough to really be considered a force in the West, IMHO, and I really can't place blame on someone for doing what was expected out of them.

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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    not sure if this was already mentioned.. but with the recent developments of Melo & LS Saga.. im very pleased Bird wasnt too "patient" in waiting to make a move for Collison.

    Pacers exercised some really good timing on the deal including the hornets. If Melo states he wants out 1 week earlier.. it coulda been an entirely different turnout.

    Kudos to the Pacers FO!

    * LS guaranteed contract, not so much.

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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Quote Originally Posted by bphil View Post
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    Hmm. It's more and more evident to me that we need to cherish the memories we have of Reggie and the Pacers' Finals appearance in 2000. It appears that it's going to become pretty much impossible for small market cities to keep or sign top tier free agents if current trends continue.

    This is VERY different from the Celtics/Lakers/Bulls domination in the '80s and '90s. Those teams were built through the draft, not through players teaming up via free agency. Back then the fans still had hope that their team could draft a couple of stars, keep them, and contend for a championship. Now that's not the case.

    If PG turns out to be a stud, he's gone as soon as his current contract is up. Danny will split ASAP as well... I'm starting to think we should go ahead and trade him since he's already been an all-star. I do think we might be able to keep Hibbert though... I think he'll be a very good center, but probably not top-tier enough to land in a major market. Collison is DEFINITELY gone after his rookie contract is up if he continues to play well... no way we keep that kid.

    Bummer.

    Debbie Downer over here.
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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Now Carmelo in Orlando would be pretty dangerous depending on what the Magic have to give up. If they can keep Nelson, and obviously Howard, they could still offer Carter or Lewis plus picks or other young talent that can keep the Nuggets competitive as well

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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Man you Pacers are lucky the collison trade happened already. You would think with this coming out that Collison could have easily been the piece that could have brought Anthony to the Hornets. I am glad Collison is a pacer!

    On the topic about the 'newage superstar'. This ****s me, it seems like competition is dead, unlike the days of bird and magic where the one thing they all wanted to do was beat each other, they would never dream of playing together.

    Though that said, I would love it for Anthony to be traded to Magic. Only for the reason to beat Miami. If Lebron and bosh stayed on seperate teams rather than join up with Wade I would not have wanted Anthony on the magic, only because I love the competition that superstars on seperate teams create. Thanks to garbage that is Lebron, this is now gone.

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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Would the Nuggets really want Collison seeing that they already have Billups and young PG in Lawson?

    Now perhaps the Hornets could have used Collison with a 3rd team to try and land Carmelo.... but NO TAKESIES BACKSIES!!

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    Default Re: Carmelo wants out of Denver

    Quote Originally Posted by pwee31 View Post
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    Now Carmelo in Orlando would be pretty dangerous depending on what the Magic have to give up. If they can keep Nelson, and obviously Howard, they could still offer Carter or Lewis plus picks or other young talent that can keep the Nuggets competitive as well
    I'd think the trade would be something like Melo/Billups for Nelson/Vince/Pietrus. Vince has only $4M guaranteed for next year, Pietrus is expiring, and Nelson would be a good piece to build around. And Orlando wins 80 games.

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