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Thread: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

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    Default Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    Kelly Dwyer at BDL suggests a deal between the Pacers and Sixers.

    The Pacers and 76ers should make a deal
    By Kelly Dwyer

    

Rare is the time that I bust out ShamSports.com for its use in trade machinations. There are 3,700 other ways to use it, but I'm not big on grabbing the calculator and making up hypothetical deals. And yet, with the Indiana Pacers sporting a gaping hole at power forward and the Philadelphia 76ers in the midst of what could be a complete reshaping, I think it's time for these two teams to start talking.

    For a while, Indiana's plan has been to chomp down on the summer of 2011 with a heaping of cap space. As it stands right now, the team will have about $26.5 million in payroll responsibility to work beyond next summer. Even counting cap holds and what could be another lottery pick, this usually would still be about half a cap to try and rebuild with. Not bad at all.

    The problem there is that we have no idea what the cap will look like once the NBA and its players hammer out a new collective bargaining agreement. I still have a feeling all the talk about a hard cap -- or the rumors about the NBA somehow finding a way to make most of these would-be grandfathered contracts null and void -- a bit nutty. At the heart of this, David Stern knows it's his talk-themselves-into-anything owners who are his problem, along with the GMs that want to keep a job and go penny-wise and pound-foolish.

    Even with that in place, there still is the worry that $26.5 million in payroll and the cap space on top of it could be nothing short of Monopoly money next summer. So I wouldn't mind if the Pacers acted now.

    Especially with the changing of the guard in Philadelphia taking place.
    Doug Collins is in as coach, and he's long wielded a strong personnel influence from the bench since leaving Turner Sports for Detroit in 1995. Rod Thorn is in as team president, and while GM Ed Stefanski will retain his role, it's clear he'll have to run things by his former Nets boss.

    Collins and Thorn were handed the keys to a promising group of youngsters, but also some well-off vets who may or may not be worth the money. Elton Brand, admirable though he may be, is not worth the three years and $51 million he's owed on his contract. All the advanced stats in the world tell you that Andre Iguodala is pretty special, and we agree to a point. But we also know that poor ball-handling and iffy shot selection often mitigates those fabulous 20-9-7 lines.

    So I think the Pacers should send Mike Dunleavy, T.J. Ford, Jeff Foster (all expiring contracts) and Paul George to Philadelphia -- along with their first-round pick from next year (top three protected, losing said protection the year after) -- for Elton Brand, Andre Iguodala and Marreese Speights.

    There's a good chance fans of both teams will hate this deal. There's a better chance Philadelphia fans will hate it the most.

    They're giving up their best player for the type of thing that continually fails to stir the optimism of fan bases, but is often times the best way out of the dumpster: draft picks and cap space.

    This deal clears $20 million in cap space from Philly's books next summer, leaving it as a major player in the summer almost regardless of where the CBA hammers down. The team could have two lottery selections to work with next season, enough cap space to restart and the retained talents of Louis Williams, Evan Turner, Spencer Hawes, George and Jrue Holliday. It could have even more cap space if the team decides Hawes is worth passing on.

    To me, this is a harder sell for Indiana. It blows their cap space for next summer, and leaves them without a lottery pick for 2010 (in George) and 2011.

    But with Darren Collison, Granger, Iguodala, Speights (if you don't know, you will soon), Tyler Hansbrough and Roy Hibbert on hand, the Pacers will have a young, formidable team. They'll be going from league-worst production at point guard and one of the wing positions to borderline All-Star work from A.I., and not too far off (seriously) when it comes to Collison. Don't underestimate that upgrade. Toss in Speights to finish inside and the improving high-post game from Hibbert, and you have a team.

    Objective analysis from an outsider looking to help both teams at once is never bound to be popular, and there's no way I can understand or work along the same lines as a fan who lives and dies with each of his team's games (though, judging by the empty seats in Philly and Indiana ...).

    The last bit was a joke. I know both of these teams have rabid fan bases, and I feel like they've been jerked around for too long while their personnel bosses have put off rebuilding and instead tried to shoot for 45 wins as the absolute best-case scenario. It's time to end that.

    It's time to start over in Philly, and it's time to see if a team with Iguodala at the core and a host of finishers and extra-passers around him can be bigger than the sum of its parts in Indiana. It's time to roll the dice on both ends. No more Dahntay Jones add-ons. No more "let's see if Elton gets it back."

    I dig it. What say you?

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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    No.
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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    The idea of taking on Brand's contract is about as appealing as swallowing a cyanide pill at this point.

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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    I think I'll take a waiver on this one.


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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    Nah, I don't like it. We don't need Brand as our PF. From what I've heard Iggy is a ballhog and isn't good for team chemistry (plus takes bad shots). I'd take Hibbert over Speights all day long. We need to use these expiring contracts to get young players that we can fit into our rebuilding plan, plus Paul George is part of our future.

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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    What? I mean, what? Did someone break into Dwyers account and post an article.

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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    That is a really bad trade for the Pacers.

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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    I look at taking on Brand's contract as I viewed taking on Okafor's contract. NOT INTERESTED!

    I'd really like to have Speights. He was the player I wanted in 2008, but I'm not sure I want to have to give up my 2010 player, George, to get him.

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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    Quote Originally Posted by righteouscool View Post
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    That is a really bad trade for the Pacers.
    and the Sixers. It's a lose/lose.

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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    No. Not even close.

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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    What? I mean, what? Did someone break into Dwyers account and post an article.
    It's not horribly ill-conceived. The idea is putting Iggy @ the 2 and Speights at the 4 - with Hibbert, Granger & Collison surrounding them.

    That actually sounds like a great idea.

    However, the price is taking Brand's contract and giving up, effectively, 2 firsts (George & 2011).

    I'm not saying I'd do it, because it's very risky - and pretty expensive, but it's actually kind of intriguing.

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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    Iggy and Granger looked really good on the wings for team USA. That could work with Collison at point and Hibbert at center and either Brand or Speights at 4. That is the making of a contending team!

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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    I look at taking on Brand's contract as I viewed taking on Okafor's contract. NOT INTERESTED!

    I'd really like to have Speights. He was the player I wanted in 2008, but I'm not sure I want to have to give up my 2010 player, George, to get him.
    Yeah, basically taking Okafor's contract on, plus there's no huge incentive for taking on that huge contract, such as New Orleans when they had Darren Collison. Collison was their incentive to take away a large bad contract and Philadelphia in this scenario doesn't have one that at least appeals to me much.

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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    Take out George, the first, and Speights.

    Collison/Price
    Iggy/Rush
    Granger/George
    Brand/Hansbrough
    Hibbert/Foster

    The problem with that is, we lose all cap room and might make it hard to resign any of the young guys. The only way to get Iggy is to take Brand with him.

    I'm not sure we really even need Iggy, it would be awesome to have him next to Collison and Granger, but we have a nice young core, lets give them a season before we potentially ruin it.

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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    So now that the Pacers are finally getting out of the dumpster they should climb back in and take the Sixers place?

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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    It's not horribly ill-conceived. The idea is putting Iggy @ the 2 and Speights at the 4 - with Hibbert, Granger & Collison surrounding them.

    That actually sounds like a great idea.

    However, the price is taking Brand's contract and giving up, effectively, 2 firsts (George & 2011).

    I'm not saying I'd do it, because it's very risky - and pretty expensive, but it's actually kind of intriguing.
    I agree it makes sense in a financial vacuum. The problem is between Iggy and Elton, we'd be taking on a combined $108mil in salary for the next 3 and 4 years. Is taking on that much salary really worth two firsts? Is it wise to take on that much salary heading into the lockout? Is it a good idea, when we'd eventually like to retain Hibbert, Speights, Rush to take on that much salary?

    For the record those aren't directed at you or your post (though, feel free to respond). Just thinking/questioning out loud.

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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)


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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    Look if we can work out a deal to get Iggy and Speights here without taking on Brand, then I'd be all for it, and I'd be more than happy to send out George and a first and some expiring money to make it happen. The fact is though, that is a pipe dream in every sense of the phrase.

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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    Might as well throw in Lance...
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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    The alternate universe trade would be something like:

    Granger + both Jones for Evan Turner, Speights, and Kapono +2011 first

    Granger teams with Iggy instead of vice versa. If Turner is the real deal (Summer League notwithstanding), there is some value here.

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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    I agree it makes sense in a financial vacuum. The problem is between Iggy and Elton, we'd be taking on a combined $108mil in salary for the next 3 and 4 years. Is taking on that much salary really worth two firsts? Is it wise to take on that much salary heading into the lockout? Is it a good idea, when we'd eventually like to retain Hibbert, Speights, Rush to take on that much salary?

    For the record those aren't directed at you or your post (though, feel free to respond). Just thinking/questioning out loud.
    Clearly, Brand is the deal breaker. It doesn't make sense for Philly, unless they can make a clean sweep, and Brand's salary gets in the way of too many things for the Pacers - specifically extending guys like Hibbert & Speights.

    The other problem you run into is that this is a "Post-Decision World," and a year ago, I would have loved to take my chances with this roster:

    Collison-Iggy-Granger-Speights-Hibbert with Rush/McBob/Buck, etc.

    However, that's probably not good enough to get past Miami - so you're spending a lot of money for maybe Final Four?

    I'd prefer something smaller.

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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    Well, goes to show you that all this cap space we've been working on must be worth something.
    .

    .

    .

    .


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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    I would prefer something much, much smaller.

    Something that includes just Speights. Give them Stephenson and our 2011 first (top 3 protected). Speights' athleticism is outstanding. He rebounds very well. The thing I am concerned about with him is that he sometimes lacks awareness. I don't know if that is permanent or he just hasn't quite learned the game well enough at this level to understand better. Is he coachable? I wanted Speights at 17 when we got Hibbert. He went the pick before and I was really disappointed, but when we took Hibbert I got really excited again.

    I don't want Iggy with the young talent we have, that will improve enough to eventually be better. I think George and Rush could both outproduce Iggy. I also probably think a lot less of Iggy's game than a lot of people.

    PG - Collison, Price, Ford
    SG - Rush, George, DJones
    SF - Granger, Posey, Dunleavy
    PF - Speights, Hansborough, Rolle
    C - Hibbert, McRoberts, Foster

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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    lol wow what a bad deal. If we're giving all that up, I would want at least Turner in return. We're basically putting all our hope in AI, Brand and Speights....PASS
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    Default Re: Pacers and 76ers should make a deal (Ball Don't Lie)

    Makes a ton of sense for Philly. Not so much for the Pacers. That would mortgage too much of the future.

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