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Thread: 8p9s: True Hoop Trade Round Table

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    Default 8p9s: True Hoop Trade Round Table

    http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.co...m-blockbuster/

    I'm only going to post the Collison and Murphy write-ups.

    Ryan Schwan (Hornets247) on Darren Collison:

    After watching him for a season, I’m comfortable claiming that Darren Collison is the proud owner of the “fastest man in the NBA” title. When he played, the Hornets pace increased by five posessions, as he exploded up court every chance he could. Considering the heavy-footed players he was dragging with him up the court, it is a pretty amazing feat.

    Collison started off his rookie season pretty rough, shooting poorly from deep, and struggling valiantly to figure out how to score over the faster, taller athletes he met in the paint. In fact, for the first month, a pick and roll run by Collison typically had very little going for it. That all changed, however, when Chris Paul went down. Given long minutes, constant coaching by Paul, and confidence that never seemed to waver, Collison started deploying a stutter step and mid-range pull up jumper that made him deadly on the pick and roll by the end of February. His long-range shot, which was amazing in college, began to settle in, and soon he was deadly from three, both as a spot-up shooter, and as a guy who could pull up off the dribble and knock it down.

    As a passer, Collison is excellent in the open court, solid at the pick and roll, but tends to struggle in the pick and pop. He’s great at driving into the paint and laying the ball off to a big man for a dunk or finding the roller, but when he has to find the open men on the perimeter, he still can get into trouble. As a result, though he gets a lot of assists, he also gets a lot of turnovers. He also has the tendency to be called for a carry once or twice a game, though that was fading by the end of last season.

    Defensively is where Collison has his biggest problems. He makes Allen Iverson look fat – and unlike mighty mouse Chris Paul, he’s also not physically strong at all. That leaves him to be exploited terribly in post ups, and because of his lightness, a good screen or series of screens can take him out the picture on defense despite his recovery speed.

    As a team leader, Collison was remarkable. He was barking commands to veterans like Okafor and David West from the start of the season. On more than one occassion I saw him get on teammates for not being where they were supposed to be. He’s intelligent, knows how to get a team into its offense, and it shows. He’s also cold-blooded. He had two game-winning shots last season, and another three that put a nail in a run the other team was making to come back. He doesn’t shy from that big shot – and he has a decent track record of making it.

    In the end, I feel Collison will be an exciting-as-hell, explosive scorer in the mold of Tony Parker, and most nights will outscore his opponent. At the same time, I’d also expect his opponent to regularly score more than is usual.
    The bolded part is perhaps what I'm most excited about. Last year the team had no vocal on-court leader. Jack played that role 2 years ago, and that's a big part of the reason that many of us miss him. Collison plays the perfect position and appears to have the talent to take on a leadership role. If Collison pans out going forward, he should hopefully fill the leadership void.

    Tim Donahue (8 points, 9 seconds) on Troy Murphy:

    Offensively – The short answer is that Murph is a 6′11″ Steve Kerr. He is an extremely efficient scorer, and serves as a safety valve for the offense. I can see him being a very nice player with your personnel, offensively, as he is a low-usage guy. The Pacers use him to float at the top of the key, and he took all but like 10 of his three’s from the arc (very few corner threes). He has no post game to speak of, and he’s a solid passer, but not a great high post guy. He does a good job of reading his defender, and is very good at reading the closeout, putting the ball on the floor and finishing at the rim. He doesn’t get many offensive rebounds because of (a) where he plays and (b) his lack of footspeed, but could get more if he played closer to the basket. However, I think you’d be an absolute fool to play him – offensively – in any other way than the way O’Brien used him. Look at his eFG and TS numbers the last three years under Obie vs. his time in GS. He plays completely within his skill set (almost to a fault), and I have never – never – seen a guy with better shot selection than Troy. Very, very nice complementary shooter to have on your team.

    Defensively – He is definitely a liability, and that is because he’s slow and physically weak. He gets lots of defensive rebounds, but he doesn’t really control the glass the way most guys who pull down the volume of boards he gets. He is not a block out guy, but has a good nose for the ball. One-on-one he will never be better than, well, bad, but he can learn and will follow team defensive concepts. In other words, if the opponent decides to target him, then he’ll get beaten, but he won’t blow defensive team schemes. Overall, your team’s defensive performance will drag when he’s on the floor.

    Lockerroom & Fit – He appears likable enough, but not really a presence. Seems to get along with everybody well enough. There were rumors last year that he wasn’t happy about Hansbrough eating into his playing time, but they were way external to the organization and I never believed them. As far as fitting with your big guys, he should be a great fit with both Lopez and Favors offensively, and probaly a poor fit defensively with Lopez, but pretty good with Favors – assuming I’ve got a reasonable handle on their respective games.

    Here’s the most important part – you can’t look at the 14 & 11 and think he’s that traditional double-double guy. He is very much someone who accentuates his positives, but doesn’t improve on his negatives. He is not a physical player, at all. He is who he is, but that can be a good thing. Assuming Avery doesn’t choke on his defense, I suspect he’ll love the guy because he is perhaps the most reliably consistent player I’ve seen in three+ decades of watching the NBA. He will hit shots, he will get some boards, and he will suck on defense. He will score, but he is a safety valve – not a primary or secondary option. It sounds strange, but I think coaches like that because it’s something they don’t have to worry about. They put him out there, and work on everything else. This is why he can have some big games and not really make a difference. He’s kind of a like an offensive lineman. He can have a great individual game, but if the rest of the line sucks, it won’t matter. At the same time, if he’s great and the rest of the line is great, nobody will notice him.
    Tim (Count55) does a nice write-up of Murphy. He wore on us all over the past 3.5 years, but Tim does a nice job reminding us that there are some real positive aspects of Murphy's game.
    "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

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    Default Re: 8p9s: True Hoop Trade Round Table

    Are Tim Donahue and Jared Wade pen names as well?
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    Default Re: 8p9s: True Hoop Trade Round Table

    So, assuming Ryan Schwan is correct, Collison is a more outgoing personality who is quicker than TJ, and developed a 3 pt shot during the season, but otherwise is TJ when placed in a system like O'B's where having anyone pass inside to a post player is a foreign concept, and who has difficulty finding players on kickouts after dribble penetration. Wow.

    Gets into trouble when finding guys on the perimeter? Why, that describes every pg who has played for us under O'B. Scary that he had that issue there, because the O'B system (assuming it doesn't change, and I am comfortable that it won't at this point, but hope to be proven wrong) would put Collison into that situation with alarming frequency. The question that remains to be seen is how often Collison jumps and spins wildly in traffic due to his small stature, only to find that there is nobody open to pass to, leaving him to either turn it over, pass to a well covered man who is left to take a poor shot, or to take a poor shot himself. Hopefully he will have the sense to stop his penetration a step earlier than every pg the Pacers have played under O'B has, but I am afraid with Collison being quicker than the rest have been that he will be sorely tempted to penetrate about like Ford. That might be the best thing that could happen to the franchise, though, because the O'B system will have been fully exposed by that point, so I guess I am torn about whether I hope Collison stops short on dribble penetrations or if I want him to play like the rest of our previous pgs in the O'B system.

    I hope he still can hit his 3's so his speed is a factor on offense. I would hate to not lead the league in the pace factor (maybe the Pacers can finally catch up to Nellie ball), as it is always key to success, especially when Collison's matchups scored better against him than they ordinarily would have due, like just about every pg that has played for the Pacers, to a lack of size and physical strength. So, hopefully the addition of the Murphy subtraction takes on added significance and offsets this deficiency.

    Lots of work by Count here. However, I don't seem to remember much talk of Murphy feeling threatened by Hansbrough, because Hansbrough was being brought along as a better scoring version of Foster, not Murphy, and few, if any, thought otherwise, unless it was on other boards or by others in the media who didn't follow the Pacers as we do here at PD. If Murphy was threatened at all, it was by McRoberts, but that was really a non-factor as well, IMO.

    I look forward to seeing Murphy change his style of play when he is asked to by Avery Johnson. He will either end up on the bench depite his salary due to not playing defense, or he will show that if he is asked to play defense in a defensively oriented system (which Johnson does have, IMO) that he actually can play defense, and that his offensive game doesn't have to be so severely limited to simply being a "stetch 4 / 5", especially if there is a reason to play inside the arc such as the coach wanting him to do so.

    Unfortunately, my enthusiasm has waned somewhat again after reading what someone who followed Collison last year has to say, coupled with what Seth and Sookie have posted elsewhere. But, I hope I am wrong.

    And so it goes here on the Darkside, where I still haven't found those cookies that Kegboy promised.

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    Default Re: 8p9s: True Hoop Trade Round Table

    Brad, I think you've got to take a look at the difference in personnel Collison will have on the court with him offensively as a Pacer vs. what was there in NO. In NO, they had West, but what else? An aging Peja? They did not have a Hibbert for him to find down low, nor a combo of Granger and Rush waiting for a kick-out pass.

    The more I read about Collison, the more I think not only is he a good fit for the Pacers, but the Pacers' are a better fit for his skills than NO. The Pacers players will be his "enablers", if you will.
    Last edited by Tom White; 08-14-2010 at 12:01 PM.

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    Default Re: 8p9s: True Hoop Trade Round Table

    Yes, the hope is that Darren will be that vocal leader on the court that this team really needs. I think he will and training camp can't start soon enough.

    I have an appreciation for what Troy brought to the court. He always got you rebounds and those trailing threes were great. My problem with him was he was overpaid. That wasn't his fault, it was Golden State. Thank goodness those days are over. Larry turning his contract into Darren Collison is the most inspiring thing to come out of his time here. Good luck in Jersey Troy!
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    Default Re: 8p9s: True Hoop Trade Round Table

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    Gets into trouble when finding guys on the perimeter? Why, that describes every pg who has played for us under O'B. Scary that he had that issue there, because the O'B system (assuming it doesn't change, and I am comfortable that it won't at this point, but hope to be proven wrong) would put Collison into that situation with alarming frequency. The question that remains to be seen is how often Collison jumps and spins wildly in traffic due to his small stature, only to find that there is nobody open to pass to, leaving him to either turn it over, pass to a well covered man who is left to take a poor shot, or to take a poor shot himself.
    Darren has no problem finding his teammates on the perimeter. He is much, much better than TJ in that area and is more similar to AJ in that regard.

    Darren's #1 problem as a passer occurs when he picks up his dribble with nowhere to pass. He has difficulty getting good passing angles because of his size. He needs to keep his dribble until he has a clear pass and his teammates have to do a better job of bailing him out when he gets trapped.

    His #2 problem is jumping in the air with nowhere to go. His #3 problem, imo, is a positive. He throws it to teammates who aren't ready/expecting a pass and it creates a turnover. This will disappear when his teammates become more comfortable with him, and I think we'll see good opportunities come out of this.
    Last edited by imawhat; 08-14-2010 at 12:51 PM.

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    Default Re: 8p9s: True Hoop Trade Round Table

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    So, assuming Ryan Schwan is correct, Collison is a more outgoing personality who is quicker than TJ, and developed a 3 pt shot during the season, but otherwise is TJ when placed in a system like O'B's where having anyone pass inside to a post player is a foreign concept, and who has difficulty finding players on kickouts after dribble penetration. Wow.

    Gets into trouble when finding guys on the perimeter? Why, that describes every pg who has played for us under O'B. Scary that he had that issue there, because the O'B system (assuming it doesn't change, and I am comfortable that it won't at this point, but hope to be proven wrong) would put Collison into that situation with alarming frequency. The question that remains to be seen is how often Collison jumps and spins wildly in traffic due to his small stature, only to find that there is nobody open to pass to, leaving him to either turn it over, pass to a well covered man who is left to take a poor shot, or to take a poor shot himself. Hopefully he will have the sense to stop his penetration a step earlier than every pg the Pacers have played under O'B has, but I am afraid with Collison being quicker than the rest have been that he will be sorely tempted to penetrate about like Ford. That might be the best thing that could happen to the franchise, though, because the O'B system will have been fully exposed by that point, so I guess I am torn about whether I hope Collison stops short on dribble penetrations or if I want him to play like the rest of our previous pgs in the O'B system.

    I hope he still can hit his 3's so his speed is a factor on offense. I would hate to not lead the league in the pace factor (maybe the Pacers can finally catch up to Nellie ball), as it is always key to success, especially when Collison's matchups scored better against him than they ordinarily would have due, like just about every pg that has played for the Pacers, to a lack of size and physical strength. So, hopefully the addition of the Murphy subtraction takes on added significance and offsets this deficiency.

    Unfortunately, my enthusiasm has waned somewhat again after reading what someone who followed Collison last year has to say, coupled with what Seth and Sookie have posted elsewhere. But, I hope I am wrong.
    Look, Don't get me wrong about Collison. Most PG's need to play in a type of system that benefits there good qualities, or they don't play well. And, unlike TJ, he does seem to make relatviely good decisions with the ball, which makes him have the potential of being a good PG. (Unlike TJ)

    However, things like being turnover prone, being prone to looking for his shot first and second, being prone to over penetration, struggling to find players on the perimeter (supposedly, although I personally haven't noticed this.)..this is all stuff that is going to eccentuated in JOB's offense. And because there isn't a huge structure to the offense, it won't be corrected. That's my issue. My issue isn't with Collison. He can correct a majority of that stuff. But he won't in this system.

    That's why I personally see a value in a PG like Price. Because it doesn't matter what system you put him in, he can do it. His job last year was to come in the game, speed it up, and look to score. Now the funny thing is he actually has a preference for the half court game, and his mentality is typically "either pass or shoot, just make the smartest move" instead of "score so Jimmy keeps me in." He's simply average to quite good at every facet of the game, and he's a very smart player, which means he can adapt easily to whatever system a coach is running. Actually at Uconn, Calhoun had him switch roles quite frequently, and he looked just as natural at each one. (He'd run a fast court offense and a half court offense, and then switch to the two guard..) However, it also means that he probably won't be exceptional at any specific system, which IMO, Collison has the possibility of being.

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    Default Re: 8p9s: True Hoop Trade Round Table

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Look, Don't get me wrong about Collison. Most PG's need to play in a type of system that benefits there good qualities, or they don't play well. And, unlike TJ, he does seem to make relatviely good decisions with the ball, which makes him have the potential of being a good PG. (Unlike TJ)

    However, things like being turnover prone, being prone to looking for his shot first and second, being prone to over penetration, struggling to find players on the perimeter (supposedly, although I personally haven't noticed this.)..this is all stuff that is going to eccentuated in JOB's offense. And because there isn't a huge structure to the offense, it won't be corrected. That's my issue. My issue isn't with Collison. He can correct a majority of that stuff. But he won't in this system.

    That's why I personally see a value in a PG like Price. Because it doesn't matter what system you put him in, he can do it. His job last year was to come in the game, speed it up, and look to score. Now the funny thing is he actually has a preference for the half court game, and his mentality is typically "either pass or shoot, just make the smartest move" instead of "score so Jimmy keeps me in." He's simply average to quite good at every facet of the game, and he's a very smart player, which means he can adapt easily to whatever system a coach is running. Actually at Uconn, Calhoun had him switch roles quite frequently, and he looked just as natural at each one. (He'd run a fast court offense and a half court offense, and then switch to the two guard..) However, it also means that he probably won't be exceptional at any specific system, which IMO, Collison has the possibility of being.
    That is why I value a PG like Price. Because he is smart and a good passer, who can also score some if necessary. To have a great team you don't need a PG that is a great scorer, or has great stats. You just need a PG that is smart and knows what needs to be done. That is why I haven't stressed getting a PG at all this summer, and like the trade more for getting rid of Murphy than for getting Collison.

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    Default Re: 8p9s: True Hoop Trade Round Table

    People saying Collison is turnover prone, remember this...

    He was a ROOKIE last season!
    Grown Man Ball

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    Default Re: 8p9s: True Hoop Trade Round Table

    Quote Originally Posted by SMosley21 View Post
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    People saying Collison is turnover prone, remember this...

    He was a ROOKIE last season!
    Which is why it can be corrected.

    Turnovers where a teammate didn't catch it, wasn't expecting it, or wasn't where he expected them to be..ect..don't bother me that much. (That's where a majority of Price's turnovers come from.) And quite frankly, will decrease the more he plays with the team.

    It's the running into traffic and throwing the ball away cuz he's going to fast and out of control, or he's being sloopy with the ball, that he'll need to fix. And as you said, he was a rookie, he can improve. I just think it'll be extremely hard for him to improve that in this particular system.

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    Default Re: 8p9s: True Hoop Trade Round Table

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    It's the running into traffic and throwing the ball away cuz he's going to fast and out of control, or he's being sloopy with the ball
    Haaaaaaaang on Sloopy, Sloopy hang on!
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