Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

  1. #1
    FREE LANCE MillerTime's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    4,841

    Default Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    The Indiana Pacers pulled off the seemingly impossible on Wednesday when they parlayed their patience and an expiring contract into the point guard theyíve been looking for since the turn of the millennium.

    I detailed the four-team, five-player trade in ĎGrading the Dealí format shortly after the trade was finalized, but given the fact that the Pacers were the winners of the swap, I figured a more in-depth look was needed.

    For those that may have missed it, here is the breakdown of Wednesdayís deal: Indiana acquired Darren Collison and James Posey from New Orleans, New Jersey got Troy Murphy from Indiana, Houston landed Courtney Lee from New Jersey and New Orleans added Trevor Ariza from Houston.

    There are a number of ways to view this deal from the Pacersí perspective.

    Just a little patience

    Pacers president Larry Bird and general manager David Morway have been preaching patience since the start of their three-year plan and for the first time since it was implemented two years ago, the roster is visibly improved.

    Iíve done my best not to, but after seeing a photo-shopped picture of Birdís face on the body of Guns Ní Roses singer Axl Rose from the ďPatienceĒ video, I canít help but get the image out of my mind.

    The point has been made multiple times in this space, but the type of discipline Bird and Morway showed in sticking to their plan was extremely admirable. Were there times when it seemed as though they had missed the boat? Absolutely. Do they still have work to do? Another obvious yes.

    Regardless of the tinkering they still have left, letís review the developments that led up to Collison landing in Indiana.

    -- Hovering near the luxury tax threshold, the Pacers were handcuffed in terms of what they could do to improve their roster heading into the summer.

    -- They drafted Paul George, yet another talented wing player to add to a stable of players at shooting guard and small forward.

    -- Deals were discussed, but the entire month of July (and nearly two weeks in August) passed without Indiana making a single move aside from signing George and second-rounder Lance Stephenson.

    -- They were seemingly left to target stop-gap options at point guard after they were unable to work any type of sign-and-trade or outright trade for another teamís spare guard.

    -- Rumors that Chris Paul wanted out of New Orleans burned red-hot and then cooled down after he met with new general manager Dell Demps and coach Monty Williams. All of a sudden, the Hornets were put in a position where they needed to do two things. They needed to assure fans that they were committed to CP3, while simultaneously convincing him they are serious about putting building around him.

    -- The Nets needed a power forward and the Rockets were open to trimming some of their payroll. Alas, the four-team deal became a realistic possibility and in a rare feat these days, the trade is discussed and nearly completed before reports even surfaced.

    The addition of Collison is exciting, but itís even more so when you consider that the Pacers could have panicked and acquired a mid-level veteran to start for a season or two rather than a young piece to add to their core.

    What trading Murphy means

    In the initial aftermath of the trade I got an e-mail or two from readers worried that the Pacers had ďsold the farmĒ by trading Murphy and his $11.9 million the season before it expires.

    While itís true that Indiana now has less cap room next summer Ė approximately $33 million based on a $58 million salary cap as opposed to the $36.5 million they projected prior to the Collison/Murphy deal -- they accomplished two things by dealing one of many expiring deals and also their highest-paid player.

    -- They lowered their payroll this season by $5 million, which gives them greater flexibility over the remainder of the summer. They could sign a low-level free agent and still remain under the luxury tax line, but with 16 players under contract (not including rookie Magnum Rolle and including T.J. Ford) that appears unlikely at this point.
    With the luxury tax set at $70.3 million, they have six million to work with should they so desire.

    Much more likely is another trade. They are in need of an established power forward (despite their public comments) with Tyler Hansbrough, Josh McRoberts, Solomon Jones and Jeff Foster left to play alongside center Roy Hibbert in the paint.

    Bird said Wednesday that he doesnít expect to go into the season with the current roster and Iíd be very surprised if they did. They now have the ability to take on a few million in payroll for the 2010-11 season in a trade and even give up more bodies than they get in a potential deal. Itís much easier to negotiate a trade when pennies arenít being pinched.

    - I had recommended it and I mentioned it in my GTD, but the Pacers took a very smart approach to their projected cap space in 2011. The deal not only got them Collison, but it was also proactive since it would have been hard for them to sign players like Collison and even Posey next summer. The relative unattractiveness of Indiana notwithstanding (at least compared to Miami and Los Angeles), itís impossible to sign a young, point guard to such an inexpensive deal because teams hold onto them like gold. In addition, a veteran like Posey would likely have desired an immediate contender.

    The cap space Murphyís contract would have provided in 2011 would have looked great on paper, but who would they have spent it on? Teams like the Clippers, Knicks and Nets had only marginal success with their significant cap room this summer and the free-agent pool was perhaps the best the NBA has ever seen.

    The Collison effect

    As a result of all the waiting and the deficiency Indiana has seen at point guard in the last ten years or so, many are anointing Collison as an All-Star already. While thatís not out of the question down the road, expectations should be tempered.

    He stepped in and performed extremely well for New Orleans when Paul was injured last season, averaging 18.8 points and 9.1 assists, but his run as the teamís starter lasted just 37 games and his supporting cast (David West and Emeka Okafor) was a little more stable and consistent than what heíll have right away in Indiana.

    What Collison did do that should carry over immediately is post a True Shooting percentage of .546 and a solid assist-to-turnover ratio of 2.14, which displays his good instincts in terms of both shot selection and passing.

    He is the type of point guard that can make the players around him better, something Indiana hasnít really had since Mark Jackson (1994-2000). With that said, Jackson TS% topped out at .568 (1996) and was often far below Collisonís rookie mark. It remains to be seen if Collison can be the leader Jackson was, but at least the days of Tyus Edney, Kevin OIlie, Jamaal Tinsley, Eddie Gill, Anthony Johnson, Darrell Armstrong, Sarunas Jasikevicius, Keith McLeod, Travis Diener, T.J. Ford, Jarrett Jack and Earl Watson are behind the Pacers.

    Not only is Collision perhaps the best point guard option Indiana has had in a decade, but heís also ideal for Jim OíBrienís system. Heís fast, level-headed and a good shooter. Heís also excellent defensively, something the Pacers will likely encourage him to improve further.
    http://pacers.realgm.com/articles/19...n_acquisition/
    RealGM
    By Andrew Perna
    Last edited by MillerTime; 08-13-2010 at 11:08 AM.
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



  2. #2

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    Is it wrong that I can't take this seriously just because Andrew Perna wrote it?

    It just seems to me that posting anything he writes on this forum is like Justin Bieber giving tips on music to BB King.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

  3. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Putnam For This Useful Post:


  4. #3
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,912

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    I still see no forseeable downside to this trade. I mean if Collison is killed by a bus tomorrow, the actual trade still is a decent trade.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Unclebuck For This Useful Post:


  6. #4
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,851

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Is it wrong that I can't take this seriously just because Andrew Perna wrote it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Perna
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Iíve done my best not to, but after seeing a photo-shopped picture of Birdís face on the body of Guns Ní Roses singer Axl Rose from the ďPatienceĒ video, I canít help but get the image out of my mind.
    Give the poor kid a break. He's clearly been traumatized......
    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

  7. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to MagicRat For This Useful Post:


  8. #5
    Member Mr.ThunderMakeR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Phoenix
    Posts
    1,094

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    [...]but at least the days of Tyus Edney, Kevin OIlie, Jamaal Tinsley, Eddie Gill, Anthony Johnson, Darrell Armstrong, Sarunas Jasikevicius, Keith McLeod, Travis Diener, T.J. Ford, Jarrett Jack and Earl Watson are behind the Pacers.

    Seeing all our past PG's listed next to eachother really makes it hit home just how terrible we've been at that position for the past decade. I let out a big sigh of relief after reading that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I still see no forseeable downside to this trade. I mean if Collison is killed by a bus tomorrow, the actual trade still is a decent trade.
    Don't jinx us UB!!

  9. #6
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,770

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    Iíve done my best not to, but after seeing a photo-shopped picture of Birdís face on the body of Guns Ní Roses singer Axl Rose from the ďPatienceĒ video, I canít help but get the image out of my mind.
    Um, I forget is he a member here?

    Either way our own loveable Magic Rat should take a bow for this.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  10. #7
    Member pacers_heath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Naperville, IL
    Posts
    353
    Mood

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.ThunderMakeR View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    [...]but at least the days of Tyus Edney, Kevin OIlie, Jamaal Tinsley, Eddie Gill, Anthony Johnson, Darrell Armstrong, Sarunas Jasikevicius, Keith McLeod, Travis Diener, T.J. Ford, Jarrett Jack and Earl Watson are behind the Pacers.

    Seeing all our past PG's listed next to eachother really makes it hit home just how terrible we've been at that position for the past decade. I let out a big sigh of relief after reading that.

    Don't jinx us UB!!
    Honestly, I'd say we've been a lot worse at center

    Sam Perkins
    Jeff Foster
    Brad Miller
    Rasho Nesterovic
    Zan Tabak
    David Harrison
    Roy Hibbert
    Scot Pollard
    Bruno Sundov

    am i missing anyone? Roy is the best on that list and he still hasn't been very impressive

  11. #8

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers_heath
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    am i missing anyone?
    Jermaine O'Neal was a center, much as he hated to admit it.





    .
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

  12. #9
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,770

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers_heath View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Honestly, I'd say we've been a lot worse at center

    Sam Perkins
    Jeff Foster
    Brad Miller
    Rasho Nesterovic
    Zan Tabak
    David Harrison
    Roy Hibbert
    Scot Pollard
    Bruno Sundov

    am i missing anyone? Roy is the best on that list and he still hasn't been very impressive
    I like Roy and all but better than Brad Miller? All-star in both the east and west Brad Miller?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  13. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Peck For This Useful Post:


  14. #10
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    5,772

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Jermaine O'Neal was a center, much as he hated to admit it.





    .
    Off on a tangent - Bill Walton was listed at 6'11'', but I several contemporaries swore he was over 7'0". Walton refused to be listed as a 7-footer, because he said, "Six-eleven is tall, but 7-foot is a freak."

    And, yes, JO was a Center.

  15. #11
    Member pacers_heath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Naperville, IL
    Posts
    353
    Mood

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I like Roy and all but better than Brad Miller? All-star in both the east and west Brad Miller?
    well he didn't seem to do much for the team while he was here and it was only a year

  16. #12
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    5,772

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers_heath View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    well he didn't seem to do much for the team while he was here and it was only a year
    But..he was an All Star that year.

    I'm not a Miller fan, and I'm glad we didn't sign him to that contract, but Roy's still got some provin' to do before he surpasses Brad.

  17. #13
    Member Mr.ThunderMakeR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Phoenix
    Posts
    1,094

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers_heath View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Honestly, I'd say we've been a lot worse at center

    Sam Perkins
    Jeff Foster
    Brad Miller
    Rasho Nesterovic
    Zan Tabak
    David Harrison
    Roy Hibbert
    Scot Pollard
    Bruno Sundov

    am i missing anyone? Roy is the best on that list and he still hasn't been very impressive
    Ugh that list isn't very pretty either. Its sad the two most traditionally important positions in basketball have also been our two most traditionally worst positions.

  18. #14
    bleed Blue & Gold PacersPride's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    3,245

    Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    "He stepped in and performed extremely well for New Orleans when Paul was injured last season, averaging 18.8 points and 9.1 assists, but his run as the team’s starter lasted just 37 games and his supporting cast (David West and Emeka Okafor) was a little more stable and consistent than what he’ll have right away in Indiana."

    really? does this guy not know the pacers have an all-star themselves in Granger, and is Okafor really any better than Hibbert? besides Paul the hornets are awful, in addition to the players added this offseason and guys coming back from injury last year.

    on paper the pacers have as much if not more talent excluding chris paul.
    Last edited by PacersPride; 08-13-2010 at 01:04 PM.

  19. #15
    Member odeez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Oakland, CA
    Posts
    3,776

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    I liked the Perna article. I thought it was well written and highlighting that list of PG over the last ten years really did hit home how much the Pacers have needed a serious upgrade at the position.
    Avatar photo credit: Bahram Mark Sobhani - AP

  20. #16
    The Doctor's In The House TheDon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Age
    30
    Posts
    4,582

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers_heath View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    am i missing anyone? Roy is the best on that list and he still hasn't been very impressive
    Rik Smits

  21. #17
    Long time fan diamonddave00's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Castle de Verde (Greencastle)
    Posts
    1,456
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    Andrew Perna was stating a lot of facts most Pacer fans on here already knew. But the article does inform NBA fans a little more about a team most have labled as irrelivant the last few years.

    I figure Bird and Moway will acquire a pf from somewhere by the start of the season , my personal fav is currently a King not Carl Landry who most here mention but Jason Thompson. Jason is 6'11 250 ,in his first 2 seasons has averaged 12 points and 8 rebounds , he just turned 24 making him the right age to fit with our developing young team, he's a solid but not flashy player . At 6'11 he could also provide back up mInutes at center on the Pacers.

    Carl Landry is a free agent after this season but I see the Kings making every effort to re-sign him probably at around 8- 10 mil a season long term, thus they could be looking to move Thompson to address other areas of need. I prefer Thompson to Landry for a few reasons , he's a better rebounder and defender than Landry and is a player capable of playing 2 positions.

    I could see Larry offering Rush and some kind of 1st Round swap option to the Kings for Thompson. Their contracts are basicly the same being the 12th and 13th picks of the 2008 Draft . Plus from the Kings side; Rush would make a good partner to Tyreke Evans in their back court. Just my thoughts on where to get a young starting qality pf/c for the Pacers.
    Last edited by diamonddave00; 08-13-2010 at 01:52 PM.

  22. #18
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,770

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    Quote Originally Posted by diamonddave00 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Andrew Perna was stating a lot of facts most Pacer fans on here already knew. But the article does inform NBA fans a little more about a team most have labled as irrelivant the last few years.

    I figure Bird and Moway will acquire a pf from somewhere by the start of the season , my personal fav is currently a King not Carl Landry who most here mention but Jason Thompson. Jason is 6'11 250 ,in his first 2 seasons has averaged 12 points and 8 rebounds , he just turned 24 making him the right age to fit with our developing young team, he's a solid but not flashy player . At 6'11 he could also provide back up mInutes at center on the Pacers.

    Carl Landry is a free agent after this season but I see the Kings making every effort to re-sign him probably at around 8- 10 mil a season long term, thus they could be looking to move Thompson to address other areas of need. I prefer Thompson to Landry for a few reasons , he's a better rebounder and defender than Landry and is a player capable of playing 2 positions.

    I could see Larry offering Rush and some kind of 1st Round swap option to the Kings for Thompson. Their contracts are basicly the same being the 12th and 13th picks of the 2008 Draft . Plus from the Kings side; Rush would make a good partner to Tyreke Evans in their back court. Just my thoughts on where to get a young starting qality pf/c for the Pacers.
    I have already had to write a letter to the vatican nominating Larry for Sainthood I'm not sure what I would have to do if he could somehow snag Thompson.

    If he could pull that off somehow I don't even want another move, a lineup featuring Collison, Granger, Hibbert & Thompson would be how I want to move forward and build on.

    But I just don't see this happening, however I never would have believed the Collison deal either.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  23. #19
    streets ahead
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    DC
    Age
    30
    Posts
    5,770

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Um, I forget is he a member here?
    Yes, he's PacerPerspective (though not really what I'd call an active member of the forum).

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=46703

  24. #20
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    23,747

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    Quote Originally Posted by diamonddave00 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Jason Thompson. Jason is 6'11 250 ,in his first 2 seasons has averaged 12 points and 8 rebounds , he just turned 24 making him the right age to fit with our developing young team, he's a solid but not flashy player . At 6'11 he could also provide back up mInutes at center on the Pacers.
    Works for me. What would it take to land him?
    Welcome to Pacers Digest! New around here? Here are three tips for making the forum a great place to talk about Pacers basketball.

    • Log in. Even if you want to read instead of post, it's helpful because it lets you:
    • Change your signature options. You can hide all signatures by choosing "Settings" (top right) then "General Settings" (middle left) and unchecking the box "Show Signatures" (in the "Thread Display Options" area).
    • Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

    Enjoy your time at PD!

  25. #21
    Member Eleazar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Indy
    Posts
    8,424

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Works for me. What would it take to land him?
    I would hope only D. Jones, and maybe a few second round picks. Even if we were able to get him, I would still want to go after Horford. The best way to get Horford may be a sign and trade that would have us giving up our first rounder.

  26. #22
    Rooting My Family 2 Glory CooperManning's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    1,296

    Default Re: Looking Deeper At The Collison Acquisition

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I would hope only D. Jones, and maybe a few second round picks. Even if we were able to get him, I would still want to go after Horford. The best way to get Horford may be a sign and trade that would have us giving up our first rounder.
    No one gives away young, talented big men for essentially nothing. I want Thompson in a Pacers uni as much as the next guy, but at minimum it would take Rush to get him, probably more.

Similar Threads

  1. What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison
    By The Lone Granger in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 69
    Last Post: 08-13-2010, 01:57 PM
  2. IndyStar: Collison Plans to Follow in Miller's Footsteps
    By focused444 in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 08-13-2010, 01:03 PM
  3. Star article: Collison doesn't like nightlife
    By Unclebuck in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 08-12-2010, 05:28 PM
  4. Darren Collison says he might be next on trading block
    By Pacersalltheway10 in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 68
    Last Post: 06-27-2010, 11:11 PM
  5. Darren Collison says he might be next on trading block
    By Pacersalltheway10 in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06-26-2010, 06:22 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •