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Thread: MJ not the GOAT

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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    On your list on 6'9+ guys up there, I've heard of precisely two of them. Meaning, they probably weren't any good.
    You haven't heard of them because they played 50 years ago. Nobody will have heard of a lot of good players from this era in 50 years either.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    And Bill Simmons knows a great deal about basketball, much more than you or I do.
    He really doesn't. I've heard him call Carlos Boozer a good defender and Marquis Daniels a good 3 point shooter. He knows a lot about writing and being funny, but not basketball.

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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac View Post
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    He really doesn't. I've heard him call Carlos Boozer a good defender and Marquis Daniels a good 3 point shooter. He knows a lot about writing and being funny, but not basketball.
    He's a commedian, a great writer (IMO), and a Celtics-homer. I enjoy reading when he writes about basketball. But not for the "Basketball" content per se.

    Now, he know as much or more as the common Indiana-raised fan knows about basketball, so he's not a doofus either. I'm hoping there was hyperbole or green font when he called Marquis a good 3-point shooter.
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  3. #53
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    He's a commedian, a great writer (IMO), and a Celtics-homer. I enjoy reading when he writes about basketball. But not for the "Basketball" content per se.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Now, he know as much or more as the common Indiana-raised fan knows about basketball, so he's not a doofus either. I'm hoping there was hyperbole or green font when he called Marquis a good 3-point shooter.
    When Boston acquired Quis he said that with Ray Allen and Daniels as the shooting guard rotation they would have two guys who could really "stretch the floor".

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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac View Post
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    Exactly.



    When Boston acquired Quis he said that with Ray Allen and Daniels as the shooting guard rotation they would have two guys who could really "stretch the floor".
    Oh, well then, he obviously knows nothing about the game. Chad Ford and a slew of other guys pegged Darko as the next great thing too, so they know nothing about basketball either.

    God forbid he made an error. Read his book and you'll know that is extremely knowledgeable about the game.

    I think Simmons gets a bad rap because he is funny. If he's funny, he can't be taken seriously, apparently.

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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    On your list on 6'9+ guys up there, I've heard of precisely two of them. Meaning, they probably weren't any good..
    At least 3 of them are Hall of Famers. You should probably listen more.

    Not to mention Wilt Chamberlain and Walt Bellamy joined the league soon after...

    When Russell left college, he had as many titles as anyone ever before and the longest winning streak of all time.

    He joined a pro team that had never even made the finals before and won 11 of 13 championships.

    His team would not even return to the finals for 5 years after he retired.

    If Bill's greatness was due to HoF teammates, why didn't any of them (and by any I'm including ALL) do squat without him? I think Russell making his teammates greater was his greatest strength.
    Last edited by Grover; 08-11-2010 at 03:19 PM.

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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Oh, well then, he obviously knows nothing about the game. Chad Ford and a slew of other guys pegged Darko as the next great thing too, so they know nothing about basketball either.
    There is a difference between projecting a player's potential incorrectly and not knowing the strengths and weaknesses of current players. There are very few NBA analysts who would make the mistake of calling Marquis Daniels a good three point shooter, almost none who would call Carlos Boozer a good defender and only one who would make both mistakes.

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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac View Post
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    There is a difference between projecting a player's potential incorrectly and not knowing the strengths and weaknesses of current players. There are very few NBA analysts who would make the mistake of calling Marquis Daniels a good three point shooter, almost none who would call Carlos Boozer a good defender and only one who would make both mistakes.
    While I remember his Daniels comment, I don't remember him saying Boozer was a good defender. Regardless, you're right: he's probably the only person who has both called Daniels a good outside shooter and Boozer a good defender. I would suspect that other people have made similar mistakes involving other players. Basing your entire opinion off of those two harmless comments is extremely shortsighted imo.

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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    When Boston acquired Quis he said that with Ray Allen and Daniels as the shooting guard rotation they would have two guys who could really "stretch the floor".
    Was it Simmons? Wasn't it some tv analyst? I seem to remember of somebody saying that, I thought it was some guy on TV, a national TV commentator. Doug Collins, I think (a guy I liked as an analyst).

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    On your list on 6'9+ guys up there, I've heard of precisely two of them. Meaning, they probably weren't any good.
    Kind of. I don't think it's fair to say they dominated because they were tall (Russell and Wilt) but their combination of height+athleticism was pretty rare. Most of those guys were stiffs who didn't have a pray of running and jumping with them.

    The footage I watched from those days it's very underwhelming. Lots of moves are cringe inducing, including from Wilt. One of his go-to moves was a kind of a lay-up from like 5 ft away from the basket, with his right arm fully extended in a stiff way. Very odd. I'm not a big fan of ranking players from such different eras all together.

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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by cordobes View Post
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    Was it Simmons? Wasn't it some tv analyst? I seem to remember of somebody saying that, I thought it was some guy on TV, a national TV commentator. Doug Collins, I think (a guy I liked as an analyst).



    Kind of. I don't think it's fair to say they dominated because they were tall (Russell and Wilt) but their combination of height+athleticism was pretty rare. Most of those guys were stiffs who didn't have a pray of running and jumping with them.

    The footage I watched from those days it's very underwhelming. Lots of moves are cringe inducing, including from Wilt. One of his go-to moves was a kind of a lay-up from like 5 ft away from the basket, with his right arm fully extended in a stiff way. Very odd. I'm not a big fan of ranking players from such different eras all together.
    There is really no good way to rank players that played in different generations. The game has evolved, the players are bigger, faster, stronger, and more skilled than they were in the past. There are just too many variables to make a definitive proclamation about the GOAT.

    I think Isaac is right, I actually remember hearing the "Daniels is a good outside shooter" line from multiple places. I think Simmons might have said it on a podcast once.

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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    God forbid he made an error. Read his book and you'll know that is extremely knowledgeable about the game.
    The sources he uses in his Wilt vs Russell Chapter really won me over. He does a very good job in that book of using sources to counter-act the idea that he's just being a Boston homer.



    Plus, his footnotes are hilarious.

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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    There is really no good way to rank players that played in different generations. The game has evolved, the players are bigger, faster, stronger, and more skilled than they were in the past. There are just too many variables to make a definitive proclamation about the GOAT.
    When talking about the GOAT it isn't a straight comparison. In a straight comparison most of the players from 40-50+ years ago wouldn't even stand a chance against an average player today. Only the best would even make it in the NBA today, and only the best of the best (ie Oscar, Wilt, Russell) would even be well known names.

    That is why you have to look at in one of two ways. You either have to think about what they would be like growing up in the same time as the current players with similar resources, etc. This way is very inaccurate because it is completely based on having an accurate imagination. Or you have to compare them to who the played against, their accomplishments, and their impact on the game. I think there is little argument that Russel, Wilt, Bird, Magic, and Jordan were the players who made the 5 biggest impacts on the game of basketball, although some will argue that Oscar should be included and I can't argue against them. As well all 5 of them pretty much dominated and were considered the best for their time.

    So it just comes to figuring out the mostly minor differences, and I'm sure depending on many factors different people's biases will cause everyone to come to a different conclusion.

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    Member mb221's Avatar
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    To all the people doubting Bill Simmons.. you should really have a read of his book if you can find it a local library. I think you would be stunned at the amount of work he put into the book and how little Boston bias comes through it. I am not familiar with the Marquis Daniels comments, but having read his book I can say that everything he spoke on was well researched and he certainly knows what he is talking about.

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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    When talking about the GOAT it isn't a straight comparison. In a straight comparison most of the players from 40-50+ years ago wouldn't even stand a chance against an average player today. Only the best would even make it in the NBA today, and only the best of the best (ie Oscar, Wilt, Russell) would even be well known names.
    I don't think even they would be well known names. I had the good fortune of meeting Oscar once, and listened to him talk about the set shot and how valuable it was to him. What they did back then, and what they would be able to do now, are two completely different things.

    Certianly basketball skills have evolved, but along with them, we as athletes have evolved. They were just the next step in the evolution of the game, but the game caught up with them, and then moved past them. They wouldn't be considered athletic by today's standards.

    Gervin used the finger roll to score, but if someone tried what he did today, the ball would be out at halfcourt after it bounced off the backboard from someone beating it.

    Oscar is definately in my top 3, which isn't saying much mind you, but he just wouldn't translate into days game. The game has just evolved so much. I'm not trying to discredit anything he, or the other all-time greats, did but they wouldn't be able to compete today.

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    A Magical Place Hoop's Avatar
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Day-V View Post
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    Wilt should not be on this list, either.
    This seemed like a good time for this song.




    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    Sometimes I think this board exists just to torture Anthem.
    I started a reply to that post, then deleted it and gave up.
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
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    This seemed like a good time for this song.





    I know I'm gonna catch flack for it, but I honestly don't think he belong up there on the tip-top echelon of Greatest NBA Players. I mean, to me, the greatest players should be guys that have the stats, hardware, and stories of great last-second shots or battles of adversity in an NBA Finals.

    And it's with that last part why I don't consider him on the Jordan-level. The guy was Kevin Garnett in the clutch. I mean, as Simmons says in his book, "Here's another way to look at it: nobody has any clutch stories of Wilt Chamberlain. If they existed, I'd pass them along."

    Not only that, but when fellow competitors says things like:

    "Wilt was too consumed with record: being the first to lead the league in assists, or to set a record for field goal percentage. He's accomplish one goal, then go to another. Russell only asked one question: 'What can I do to make us win?' "..........Jerry Lucas

    and

    "I'll say what most players feel, which is that Wilt is a loser... He is terrible in big games. He knows he is going to lose and be blamed for the loss, so he dreads it, and you can see it in his eyes; and anyone who has ever played with him will agree with me, regardless of whether they would admit publicly. When it comes down to the closing minutes of a tough game, an important game, he doesn't want the ball, he doesn't want any part of the pressure. It is at these times that greatness is determined, and Wilt doesn't have it. There is no way you can compare him to a pro like a Bill Russell or a Jerry West... these are clutch competitors."............Rick Barry

    ....then that's all I really need to know. I mean, hell, those dudes played against him and Russell. Since I wasn't around back then, I trust what they think more than any journalist or some dude on a message board.


    So yeah.

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    A Magical Place Hoop's Avatar
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Day-V View Post
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    I know I'm gonna catch flack for it, but .......
    I didn't mean any disrespect to you personally, you have a right to your opinion.

    It just seemed like a good place for that link, I just think that song is extremely funny.
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

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