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Thread: MJ not the GOAT

  1. #26
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    Don't even think about Lebron. He is not a good basketball player, just an amazing athlete. The same reasons many of you are discrediting Wilt and Shaq. Lebron is only a top five to ten player in the current NBA landscape.
    This is beyond silly.

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  3. #27
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    Don't even think about Lebron. He is not a good basketball player, just an amazing athlete. The same reasons many of you are discrediting Wilt and Shaq. Lebron is only a top five to ten player in the current NBA landscape.
    I'll remember that the next time Lebron makes a pass that most NBA PG's don't have the ability to make .... I'll be sure to remind myself it's because he can jump high.

  4. #28
    Boom Baby! QuickRelease's Avatar
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    Don't even think about Lebron. He is not a good basketball player, just an amazing athlete. The same reasons many of you are discrediting Wilt and Shaq. Lebron is only a top five to ten player in the current NBA landscape.
    Wow! Disagree here. The NBA is filled with people who are big, and who can run and jump out of the building, but aren't that good. Lebron certainly doesn't fall into that category. Perhaps this would sway you:





    Last edited by QuickRelease; 08-10-2010 at 10:04 PM.

  5. #29
    Member mb221's Avatar
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    I suggest everyone get their hands on a copy of the Bill Simmons book "The Book of Basketball: The NBA According To The Sports Guy". It is an extremely well researched book where he goes in depth ranking the top 96 players based on a variety of qualifications. It is very well thought out and very difficult to argue with his reasoning for the way he ranks his players. His top 5 are.. #5 Larry Bird, #4 Magic Johnson, #3 Kareem, #2 Bill Russell, #1 MJ. Basically the reason he ranks Jordan above Russell is the difficulty of projecting Russell's game to the current NBA. Russel was a defensive monster in a league where he physically outmatched every player except for Wilt. There were not an abundance of players 6' 8" and taller, so he could easily control the boards against players that were 5-6 inches shorter than him. Whereas you put Jordan in any era of the game and he is easily the best player in the league at that time.

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  7. #30

    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    I think Lebron depends on his athleticism for scoring and defense, entirely.

    His basketball talent clearly comes in the form of his passing.

    Skill wise, for scoring, he lacks the versitility of a Bryant, or even a Durrant. He's probably the biggest 3 in the league, and he can't post up. His footwork isn't fantastic ect..I'm not even sure I've noticed that much of a midrange game.

    The issue of course is, what he has now, with his ability to get to the rim and either get fouled or score. It's so efficient he hasn't had to add the versitility that players without his physical gifts had to.

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    Member BigRik's Avatar
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    Jordan changed the game. In a league of amazing players (Thomas, Bird, Magic, Wilkins, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Mutumbo, Miller, Drexler, Barkely, Stockton, Malone, King, Kemp, Price, McHale, Worthy, Dumars, Moses Malone, AI, Duncan, Garnett, etc.) he out shined them all. You simply had to be there seeing the game when he played. I hated it then, but looking back he simply was the Greatest.
    I agree. Others changed the game, but I think MJ did it when the league was at its best. There are a few who could compare to MJ as an athlete, but his all consuming drive made him aspire to be the best. Of the players I have seen play, only Bird, Magic, and Kobe even come close. It's kind of funny, because I never liked any of those guys, but I can respect their greatness. Those older than I, will throw out Russell and Oscar, and I can't really dispute either as being in the conversation, but at the end there is only Jordan.

  9. #32
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    This is beyond silly.
    It compares favorably to silly.

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  11. #33

    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    This whole thread is the reason why the whole "GOAT" argument against LeBron going to Miami is stupid (you know, the one that says he can never be the greatest now that he's gone to Miami). Even if he stayed and won 6 rings and was on the top of the all-time stats lists like Jordan lots of people still would be making arguments against him being labeled "GOAT".

    Anyways, Jordan was the best.

  12. #34
    Whale Shepherd cdash's Avatar
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Methinks Jordan was the GOAT. Calbert Cheaney was close though.

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  14. #35

    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    There's a funny story about MJ, Portland had the 2nd pick and called Bobby Knight to ask him who they should take. Coach Knight told them Jordan, Portland said "but we need a center". Coach Knight told them "then they should play him at center" This was while Coach Knight was the 1984 Olympics coach. Hakeem Olajuwan was already a lock as the first pick. Portland took Kentucky Center Sam Bowie 2nd.

    The only players that were as clutch as Jordan in the 4th qtr. is Reggie Miller and Larry Bird. Neither could play defense like him and Neither had stats like him.
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
    Darnell Hillman (Speaking of former teammate Roger Brown)

  15. #36

    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    no love for Vern Flemming?

  16. #37
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    At the same time those teams would have also played against better teams. If you narrowed the current NBA down to 8 teams you might have a team with 7 future Hall of Famers, but at the same time the team they are playing against will have similar talent. If anything it would have been tougher because the competition was tougher.
    I was watching an NBA finals from the late 1970's, maybe '78, with Seattle playing Washington. Even then the talent level of both teams put them ahead of most teams in the league today with just the expansion that has taken place since then. by the way, i had no idea Dennis Johnson was that good having only seen him in his later days with the Celtics.

    As for GOAT? Smits FTW!

  17. #38
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    I'm from Chicago and I hated Michael Jordan growing up, but he's definitely the greatest to ever play simply because he's the greatest offensive player of all time and one of the top defenders of his era. Plus he would have won 8 championships in a row if he didn't quit to be a professional baseball player.

    Quote Originally Posted by colts19 View Post
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    Shaq could have been but was just to lazy.
    Please. Shaq was and still is a hard worker. The man took ballet lessons on point to improve his footwork and it shows. He has the best feet of any big man in history.

  18. #39
    Member Isaac's Avatar
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    First of all, Bill Simmons knows very little about basketball.

    Quote Originally Posted by mb221 View Post
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    There were not an abundance of players 6' 8" and taller, so he could easily control the boards against players that were 5-6 inches shorter than him.
    This is a myth.

    From the 1959-1960 season alone:
    Swede Halbrook- 7'3
    Walter Dukes- 7'0
    Chuck Share- 6'11
    Ray Felix- 6'11
    Red Kerr- 6'10
    Bob Pettit- 6'10
    Phil Jordan- 6'10
    Joe Rucklick- 6'9
    Kenny Sears- 6'9
    Hub Reed- 6'9
    Clyde Lovellette- 6'9
    Larry Foust- 6'9
    Gary Alcorn- 6'9

    This is only with 8 teams. There were almost always at least 2 players over 6'9 on every team. Bill Russell dominated because he invented all sorts of new ways to rebound and play defense. His tactics are the reason good big man defense exists today.

    However, MJ is still the greatest basketball player of all time. Bill Russell is the greatest innovator in basketball history.

  19. #40
    Shooting for the Moon Day-V's Avatar
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Kemo View Post
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    LOL I really hope you forgot to add the sarcasm green ..

    Cause if not , then you are nuttier than a squirrel turd ..





    .

    Wilt cared about Wilt, not necessarily winning championships.

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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac View Post
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    First of all, Bill Simmons knows very little about basketball.



    This is a myth.

    From the 1959-1960 season alone:
    Swede Halbrook- 7'3
    Walter Dukes- 7'0
    Chuck Share- 6'11
    Ray Felix- 6'11
    Red Kerr- 6'10
    Bob Pettit- 6'10
    Phil Jordan- 6'10
    Joe Rucklick- 6'9
    Kenny Sears- 6'9
    Hub Reed- 6'9
    Clyde Lovellette- 6'9
    Larry Foust- 6'9
    Gary Alcorn- 6'9

    This is only with 8 teams. There were almost always at least 2 players over 6'9 on every team. Bill Russell dominated because he invented all sorts of new ways to rebound and play defense. His tactics are the reason good big man defense exists today.

    However, MJ is still the greatest basketball player of all time. Bill Russell is the greatest innovator in basketball history.
    On your list on 6'9+ guys up there, I've heard of precisely two of them. Meaning, they probably weren't any good.

    And Bill Simmons knows a great deal about basketball, much more than you or I do.

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  22. #42
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Simmons does drop the ball a great deal by not recognizing that there were plenty of centers about wilt's height. He always makes it seem like Wilt was the first human being on Earth taller than 6'3."

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  23. #43
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    I'll give my stock answer.

    I can only judge those players I have actually seen play over a period of several years (I don't know how you can judge someone if you have not seen them play - also would be a good idea to have seen them in person)

    So I can only judge starting around 1980.

    MJ is the best I've seen

  24. #44
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Wilt > Big O > MJ
    That is the right answer.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  26. #45
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Day-V View Post
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    Wilt cared about Wilt, not necessarily winning championships.
    Wilt didn't get to play on a team as deep or talented as the Celtics. Trade Russell for Wilt and the Celtics wouldn't be worried about the teams Russell was on, and the Bulls wouldn't own the record with 72 wins, either.

    Wilt was the better player, and innovated the way the game was played. You've heard of the three-second rule, right? You know the reason that the FT lane is called the key is that it used to be shaped differently? The rules were changed specifically to make it harder for Wilt to dominate (see, I can do it right Anthem, don't hate me) the entire league (as opposed to players in the modern era who are given an extra step and the league caters to their dominance.)

    What did Russell did reinvent was the way we look at player's career and consider the number of individual championships a player has in a TEAM game. Its not really a legit argument, championships are team awards not individual awards, but thanks to Russell and his happy band of HoF'ers (f'ing Green Guys) limiting the Warriors/ Lakers to just a couple of championships, its a popular one.

    Russell wasn't better than Wilt. Nobody was. But Russell's teams won more championships than Wilt. And so did Robert Horry's. So if you're saying Russell is the best of all time from that criteria then Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn, KC Jones and Havlecek make up your all-time Top-five.



    At least your all-time second team would be better: Cherry-picking away from some of the 60's era Celtics backups that weren't there for all the championships, you'd have Horry, Kareem, Jordan, Magic and John Salley.

    You see how silly this is?
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  28. #46
    Denim Chicken duke dynamite's Avatar
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Day-V View Post
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    Detlef Schrempf.
    +1

    I mean heck, the dude has a song named after him. That's gotta count for sumthin'.

  29. #47

    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    My first-hand eyeball analysis goes back to 1970 or so, when Wilt, West, and Oscar were still playing but all were past their primes.

    I would argue that Wilt, Oscar, and Jordan are on a level together, a half-step above Russell, Hakeem, West, Magic, Bird, and Kareem in his prime, and a full step above Kobe, LeBron, Dr. J, Moses Malone, Rick Barry, Tim Duncan, Elgin Baylor, Karl Malone, Elvin Hayes and maybe a few others.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  30. #48

    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    I think in order to determine the GOAT you have to ask yourself this... if you could choose any player in his prime to play for your team today, who would it be? Would you choose Wilt, Oscar, Russell or Bird over Jordan? I sure as hell wouldn't. But that's just me.

  31. #49
    Professional Beachcomber mildlysane's Avatar
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    My first-hand eyeball analysis goes back to 1970 or so, when Wilt, West, and Oscar were still playing but all were past their primes.

    I would argue that Wilt, Oscar, and Jordan are on a level together, a half-step above Russell, Hakeem, West, Magic, Bird, and Kareem in his prime, and a full step above Kobe, LeBron, Dr. J, Moses Malone, Rick Barry, Tim Duncan, Elgin Baylor, Karl Malone, Elvin Hayes and maybe a few others.
    I would put MJ, Bird, Magic, Russell, and Big O on the 1st level, with several others close behind. I cannot pick between the top-5 though. Each one of them had moments that, at the time, instantly made me think GOAT.

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  33. #50
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    Default Re: MJ not the GOAT

    Thanks for all the great replies. I saw all these players in there prime and would have to say if I were starting a team I would pick Wilt first. Just because he could do anything you ask him to do. He was a great all around player who could dominate any phase of the game. I am and always will be a big larry bird and magic fan because I'm from Terre Haute and saw larry play all of his home games at ISU and thought he was the greatest college player I ever saw along with Karem, Oscar, Walton and Pistol Pete. I know we have left out a lot of great players but it's pretty clear the top 5 or 6 players we can all agree on.
    Good is the enemy of Great


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    -- Frank Vogel.

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