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Thread: How to improve the league

  1. #51
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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    Well, I have one vote. That counts for something.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    I'm the other way in regards to the TO situation. You shouldn't be allowed to advance the ball by calling a TO. Where you call the TO is where you should get the ball. Advancing it is stupid, IMHO, and shouldn't be done.

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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I'm the other way in regards to the TO situation. You shouldn't be allowed to advance the ball by calling a TO. Where you call the TO is where you should get the ball. Advancing it is stupid, IMHO, and shouldn't be done.
    That would cut down on the end of game shots. Basically if a team scores to go ahead with 2 seconds to go the game is over. What is wrong (in fact I think it is one of the best things about the NBA) with being able to advance the ball and have the chance to get another shot off.

    last second shots are IMO the best thing and why would you want to limit them??

    why is it stupid???

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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    In order of things I think would drastically improve my enjoyment of the NBA...

    1) League contraction. We don't need this many teams. There are not 400 NBA quality players in the world. There just aren't. The good teams are too much better than the bad teams. Maybe 24 teams is more reasonable, honestly, I'm not sure, some kind of math could probably be done to determine the right amount, but currently there are far too many.

    2) Season shortening. This would be a natural result of having less teams, I think, but even if contraction didn't happen 82 games + 4 playoff rounds is simply way too much. I think Buck had it right at around 60 games for the current team number, maybe 50ish with less teams.

    3) Less playoff teams. 50% of the league makes the playoffs right now. Does this not strike anyone else as absurd? I don't even really understand why anyone wants to make the 7th or 8th seed right now. Aside from teams who get vastly better at the all star break and aren't real 8th seeds (see GSW from a few years ago) an 8th seed team has a 0% chance of beating a 1st seed. The talent disparity is so huge -- partly from having too many teams in the league. If we only had 24 teams maybe this isn't such a problem and the 6th seed would have a fighting chance, but currently it is broken.

    4) I would like to see the charge circle removed completely and put it back to a judgment call. Refs have gotten to a point where they adhere to the letter of the law to the detriment of the spirit of the law. The charge circle was never meant to be a "stand outside here with your hands in front of your balls instead of playing defense" line. It was meant to be a way to protect defenders from being landed on or jumped through. If someone is landing on or jumping through players, call the charge, but the defense needs to play defense, not stand there and pray.

    5) Contract shortening. Players being elite for 6-7 years at a time is by far the exception, not the rule. 6-7 year contracts on someone who falls off for whatever reason is franchise crippling. I like 3-4 year contracts as being more reasonable.

    6) Contract incentives. I'd like to see more room for partially guaranteed contracts with incentives. I realize this opens trouble for guys who need to get theirs to make bonuses, but this is easily solved. Make the incentives team incentives. Maybe a guaranteed contract could be 10M + 2M for making the playoffs + 2M for each playoff series win. All the sudden no superstar will ever mail it in again.

    I think these changes would create a much more competitive league and benefit the players, fans, and owners greatly. Well, the players who belong in the league, the ~100 guys who are no longer getting their league minimum to wear a suit or sit on the end of the bench aren't better off... but I'm alright with that.

  5. #55
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    CBA items:

    1) Change the guarantee. I don't think it should be eliminated completely, but it should be limited to one or two years rather than be for an entire contract. Max contract maybe 4 years with max of 2 guaranteed.

    Remember this isn't renegotiation - a guaranteed contract just means that no matter what happens you get paid. A player who thinks he is great will go only for the guaranteed period, and I think players are already going to be pushing for shorter/higher value contracts so they can show their worth and move to one of the Superteams.

    2) Hard cap, not luxury tax.

    3) Increase the number of ways a player can be given free agency and not count against his original team's cap. Removing heavy guaranteed contracts does this, but if that doesn't fly there has to be a way to let a player get what he is worth on the market without being on the hook for it.

    4) Franchise tag. If handled properly it does not cause a player financial hardship, and it means that player is acknowledged to be important to the team rather than simply an individual. Maybe put a form of arbitration if a player really thinks his team management is giving him no chance to succeed - this would improve ownership and management as well.

    Non-CBA:

    1) Shorten the season. I think 60+ games is plenty, and it will help players stay healthier and extend their careers. It will make it more of an event to get to a game.

    2) Open up referee evaluation. I think the problem is not that referees are biased or operating under orders or cheating, the problem is that the entire process of review and evaluation is completely behind closed doors. Instead of having players and coaches fined for criticizing refs (as long as it is within the bounds of civility), let them say what they want and make public the results of both exceptional AND typical after-game reviews. The public may very well begin to really understand how difficult it is and then can focus on REAL superstar calls and other bogus activity.

    3) Market teams AS WELL as great players. Celebrating and hyping great players isn't going away, especially since the NBA League Office seems to be wedded to the idea that it is really the only reason anyone watches basketball. However, to maintain long-term loyalty, franchises and the league need to put more effort into helping people identify with their local team, not just that great player who shows up twice a year. Getting rid of artificial marketing restrictions would be a REAL good start.

    Some comments on things others have said:

    1) Contraction. I'd be in favor of that if the Pacers wouldn't be one of the first teams to go. 10 years ago, now, that would have been different...

    2) TV Station Choice. I don't quite get what this is advocating - are you saying for network games the affiliates get to choose from a list of games, or are you saying that local stations contract with the league instead of the local team and thus get to show whatever they want? In the first case, the diversity of networks and the logistics involved make this a much more daunting proposition than it is for the NFL. I would also suspect that it would hurt the non-Superteams even more, since they would likely never be on (even when they played a Superteam the local stations would go with one of the other games). In the second case, that would just make it impossible for a middle-of-the-road team to even be on TV in their local market, much less nationally.

    I'm missing some things I was thinking of, but I'll come back later to be abused anyway...
    BillS

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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I'm the other way in regards to the TO situation. You shouldn't be allowed to advance the ball by calling a TO. Where you call the TO is where you should get the ball. Advancing it is stupid, IMHO, and shouldn't be done.
    A lot of things relating to timeouts are stupid, but this one actually makes the game exciting. I like the idea that no lead if safe so long as you have the ball, you're within three, and you have a timeout.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  7. #57
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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    As opposed to a hard cap, I'd prefer a harsher luxury tax so teams can get more financial relief for being smart shoppers. Instead of a dollar-for-dollar tax, make it two or three dollars.

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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    I knew I'd forget something...

    Non-CBA:

    4) Get completely rid of the lottery and give draft picks based on an average (perhaps weighted) of records over the last 5 years. This would remove tanking in the vast majority of circumstances, since few teams could afford to be purposely bad for 5 years. It would do what the draft order is meant to do, which is to give truly bad teams a chance to improve by having the best possible draft pick.
    BillS

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  10. #59
    Yeah, I'm a Pacers fan. MyFavMartin's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    Have the worst team sent down to the NBDL and bring the best one up.

    Add the 7th and 8th seeds of the playoffs to the lottery but have them continue in the playoffs. Also have even odds for the lottery teams.

  11. #60
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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    Either the Conseco Fieldhouse PA was improperly setup at installation or (more likely) monkeyed with after installation by people who had no business monkeying with it and changed settings without understanding what they were doing to the system as a whole.

    While it may never be perfect, there's no reason for the vast disparity in volume in different sections of the arena. Both Putnam and Kstat are right with their complaints about the system.
    --

    Back to the topic at hand-
    Eliminate 100% guaranteed contracts in the NBA. As for the argument about holdouts, are holdouts really that big of a problem in the NFL? No, they are not. And the benefit far outweighs any problems. I have no problem with a minimum guarantee... be it 1 year or some set percentage that isn't franchise killing if a player doesn't pan out for whatever reason.

    Shorten the NBA season to try and make the games more meaningful as well as possibly help in extending players' careers by putting less mileage on their bodies.

    Minimize 'star' treatment and try and call, if not call and market, the games as a team sport. Implement rule changes or focus on current rules to that end.

    I don't mind timeouts down the stretch nor do I mind fouling. It's all part of strategy. If a team doesn't want a player on the line shooting FT's in crunch time then put him on the bench. Don't dumb down the sport in the name of streamlining the game. That said, during TO's in crunch time I don't like the constant barrage of COMMERCIALS. If anything needs cutback it's not the timeouts in crunch time, it's the commercials.... IMHO...

    Do away with or change the way the charge/block line is utilized and enforced. It's a freaking joke currently. Either the defensive player is set and in position or he's not. It shouldn't matter WHERE his feet are.

    I'll probably add more later... too busy to type this all at once in one collective thought...
    Last edited by Bball; 08-09-2010 at 03:44 PM.
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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    In order of things I think would drastically improve my enjoyment of the NBA...

    1) League contraction. We don't need this many teams. There are not 400 NBA quality players in the world. There just aren't. The good teams are too much better than the bad teams. Maybe 24 teams is more reasonable, honestly, I'm not sure, some kind of math could probably be done to determine the right amount, but currently there are far too many.
    You realize there's a %99.9 chance the Pacers would be one of the six teams contracted....



    2) Season shortening. This would be a natural result of having less teams
    Would it? The NBA was playing 80-game schedules 45 years ago with only 9 teams.

    , I think, but even if contraction didn't happen 82 games + 4 playoff rounds is simply way too much. I think Buck had it right at around 60 games for the current team number, maybe 50ish with less teams.
    I find nothing at all memorable about the 50-game 1999 season. There certainly was no improved quality of play.

    [quote]

    3) Less playoff teams. 50% of the league makes the playoffs right now. Does this not strike anyone else as absurd? I don't even really understand why anyone wants to make the 7th or 8th seed right now. Aside from teams who get vastly better at the all star break and aren't real 8th seeds (see GSW from a few years ago) an 8th seed team has a 0% chance of beating a 1st seed. The talent disparity is so huge -- partly from having too many teams in the league. If we only had 24 teams maybe this isn't such a problem and the 6th seed would have a fighting chance, but currently it is broken.
    Broken? Absurd? Some of the most memorable playoff moments involve the #8 seed pulling off the super-upset. The NBA would be less memorable without the 1994 Nuggets or the 2007 Warriors. I enjoy giving the little guy a shot at the #1 contender.

    4) I would like to see the charge circle removed completely and put it back to a judgment call. Refs have gotten to a point where they adhere to the letter of the law to the detriment of the spirit of the law. The charge circle was never meant to be a "stand outside here with your hands in front of your balls instead of playing defense" line. It was meant to be a way to protect defenders from being landed on or jumped through. If someone is landing on or jumping through players, call the charge, but the defense needs to play defense, not stand there and pray.
    I'd prefer to see it moved out, but I agree that it needs to be fixed.

    5) Contract shortening. Players being elite for 6-7 years at a time is by far the exception, not the rule. 6-7 year contracts on someone who falls off for whatever reason is franchise crippling. I like 3-4 year contracts as being more reasonable.
    And you're going to give up what to the players to get this through?

    6) Contract incentives. I'd like to see more room for partially guaranteed contracts with incentives. I realize this opens trouble for guys who need to get theirs to make bonuses, but this is easily solved. Make the incentives team incentives. Maybe a guaranteed contract could be 10M + 2M for making the playoffs + 2M for each playoff series win. All the sudden no superstar will ever mail it in again.
    Oh, this.

    Yes, forever making bad teams bad by further encouraging all the fringe free agents to snub up and coming teams for the guaranteed playoff berth and the $2 million, thus ensuring that the LA Lakers will have even more power to get free agents than they did before...

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    Quote Originally Posted by MyFavMartin View Post
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    Have the worst team sent down to the NBDL and bring the best one up.
    Not sure that is a good idea. If you think the Clippers have been bad over the years. Seriously though unless you want to watch a team get killed by 40 points and have no chance of winning

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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I knew I'd forget something...

    Non-CBA:

    4) Get completely rid of the lottery and give draft picks based on an average (perhaps weighted) of records over the last 5 years. This would remove tanking in the vast majority of circumstances, since few teams could afford to be purposely bad for 5 years. It would do what the draft order is meant to do, which is to give truly bad teams a chance to improve by having the best possible draft pick.
    The 2008 Celtics would like to thank you and retro-actively apply it so they can have the #1 pick in the draft 2 weeks after winning the NBA title.

    Meanwhile, the Chicago Bulls, San Antonio Spurs and every other dynasty suddenly or soon-to-be discontinued by age would like to know why they are being penalized for running a good franchise, and why they need to suck for the next 4-5 years before they can get a decent draft pick.
    Last edited by Kstat; 08-09-2010 at 03:37 PM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    Quote Originally Posted by MyFavMartin View Post
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    Add the 7th and 8th seeds of the playoffs to the lottery but have them continue in the playoffs. Also have even odds for the lottery teams.
    ....so instead of the 8th seed being the least desirable finish in all of sports, it would be the 6th seed....

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  16. #65

    Default Re: How to improve the league

    Maybe the thread title should be changed to "why your ideas on how to improve the league are bad"

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  18. #66
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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    That would cut down on the end of game shots. Basically if a team scores to go ahead with 2 seconds to go the game is over. What is wrong (in fact I think it is one of the best things about the NBA) with being able to advance the ball and have the chance to get another shot off.

    last second shots are IMO the best thing and why would you want to limit them??

    why is it stupid???
    So the game is over, that's the point. Play better defense, foul if you think you should get the ball back, hit your shots earlier in the game, whatever. It's dumb to be able to advance the the ball because you have the ability to touch your fingers to your palm.

    There's no reason for it, to be honest. If you get beat without the chance to get off a good look at a last second shot, then you get beat. That's the point of the game. That's your fault for being in that position.

    It's not the fact that I want to "limit" them. I just think it's dumb to give a team an advantage because they saved their timeouts. They didn't do anything to deserve to move the ball up. I think teams have too many TOs as is, considering there is a media timeout every 4mins to begin with.

    Good basketball should be rewarded, bad basketball should be punished, and saving TOs isn't either.

    EDIT: If it's all about excitment and adding that in, then if it's under, say, 3 secs then time should be added on to get a full 3 secs. I doubt people will advocate for that addition, and moving the ball up when you don't do anything on the basketball court, basketball wise, is the samething IMHO.
    Last edited by Since86; 08-09-2010 at 03:45 PM.

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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    I think giving players a 25% shorter season is a pretty big give, to be honest. 25% less wear and tear -> longer careers -> more money. Not to mention the enjoyment of the season being less of a grind.

    It's pretty disingenuous to cite a strike shortened year as some kind of example of a shortened season being a bad thing. I'm sure you think so too, so it's unclear why you mention it.

    I didn't think about players avoiding bad teams for the incentives, but I probably should have. I'm not really sure what the answer is, then, but the problem exists currently where players have nothing stopping them from quitting on their team. Perhaps simply having shorter contracts will lower the "contract year" effect and raise effort on it's own.

    I guess my main complaint with 50% of the league making it in is the stomping you most often see. In a smaller league this would be less of a problem, as mentioned.

    Also, yes, I do realize the Pacers wouldn't survive a cut to 24 teams, but I'm a fan of the NBA, I'd find a new team to attach myself to.
    Last edited by Dece; 08-09-2010 at 03:58 PM. Reason: Apparently the strike year was so forgettable I forgot they did in fact play the playoffs that year. I just remembered.

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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Do away with or change the way the charge/block line is utilized and enforced. It's a freaking joke currently. Either the defensive player is set and in position or he's not. It shouldn't matter WHERE his feet are.
    I know I am using an extreme example, but it makes my point. OK, so it is OK with you if the defender is standing so far under the basket that he is actually out of bounds, should he still get the charge call if the offensive player runs into him.

    Obviously, my point is why should a player right underneath the basket get the charge call, he is in no position to play defense, or impact the shot.

    I think it should matter where he is standing, he should be out from underneath the basket. The rule is excellent. I just wish they wouldn't make it an automatic call (which is what it has turned into) if the defender is set but inside the circle, then it should be a no call. The rule I thought was if the defender is inside it cannot be an offensive foul, but that doesn't mean it has to be a defensive foul. That was the way the refs called it before the line was actually put in - it was an unwritten rule.

    Since86 - I guess we strongly disagree. In fact if I had to come up with 100 differtent rules changes, changing the rule as you suggest would not make my list. I think it is perhaps the best rule the NBA has ever adopted. At least it is my favorite. if someone asks me a quick question, "which rule that is unique to the NBA to you like best" without question or hesitation, I would say the ability to move the ball to halfcourt late in games is what I like best.

    kstat - I agree with most of your proposals and opinions in this thread, except that the 50 game season was proof of anything. 50 games played in less than 3 months with 10 days training camp/ preseason is worse than what we have now. I would advocate 64 or 66 game seasons played in the same length of time as the 82 games are played now. That would cut down on teh back to backs and do away with 3 in 4 or 4 in 5. Which would in tuirn greatly improve the quality of play.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 08-09-2010 at 03:59 PM.

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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So the game is over, that's the point. Play better defense, foul if you think you should get the ball back, hit your shots earlier in the game, whatever. It's dumb to be able to advance the the ball because you have the ability to touch your fingers to your palm.

    There's no reason for it, to be honest. If you get beat without the chance to get off a good look at a last second shot, then you get beat. That's the point of the game. That's your fault for being in that position.

    It's not the fact that I want to "limit" them. I just think it's dumb to give a team an advantage because they saved their timeouts. They didn't do anything to deserve to move the ball up. I think teams have too many TOs as is, considering there is a media timeout every 4mins to begin with.

    Good basketball should be rewarded, bad basketball should be punished, and saving TOs isn't either.

    EDIT: If it's all about excitment and adding that in, then if it's under, say, 3 secs then time should be added on to get a full 3 secs. I doubt people will advocate for that addition, and moving the ball up when you don't do anything on the basketball court, basketball wise, is the samething IMHO.
    This is like banning dunking, because "If you can get in position to dunk the ball, you should be happy just making a layup. There's no reason for it."

    Some people just want to be entertained. Last second shots are entertaining. Dunks are entertaining. Let's not mess with the few things about the NBA people actually agree on are fun.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I know I am using an extreme example, but it makes my point. OK, so it is OK with you if the defender is standing so far under the basket that he is actually out of bounds, should he still get the charge call if the offensive player runs into him.

    Obviously, my point is why should a player right underneath the basket get the charge call, he is in no position to play defense, or impact the shot.

    I think it should matter where he is standing, he should be out from underneath the basket. The rule is excellent. I just wish they wouldn't make it an automatic call (which is what it has turned into) if the defender is set but inside the circle, then it should be a no call. The rule I thought was if the defender is inside it cannot be an offensive foul, but that doesn't mean it has to be a defensive foul. That was the way the refs called it before the line was actually put in - it was an unwritten rule.

    I think we're agreeing on this... I just didn't make my point well. If the offensive player runs through the defender to get the ball in the basket then I don't care whether the defender had a heel on the line or not. If the defender is directly under the basket then the defender is going to have to move into the offensive player to stop him from dunking or else any significant contact is not going to affect the shot. The ref should be able to see that.

    Heck, it's gotten so bad that the line is now a judgment call itself. Did a player have a heel on the line? Was he outside the circle? Who cares? Charge or block... call it as fairly as possible and move on with the game without this line being anything other than just a reference point for the ref but not THE defining issue of a block/charge.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    It's not even close to the same thing as dunking. If we're going to use that analogy then it would be like putting a step ladder under the goal when a player under 6'3" has a break away so they can dunk instead of just laying it in.

    Moving the ball isn't anything basketball related. You don't have to do anything to earn the benefit. It's just there.

    Basketball is entertaining enough without manufacturing ways to make it more entertaining. No one will stop watching the NBA if they change the rule, matter of fact, I doubt if they change the rule much stink would be raised. If you want to advance the ball, then rely on yourself to advance the ball. You shouldn't be given a crutch because you've saved timeouts.

    If it's there to make the game more entertaining then the ball should automatically be moved up even if you don't have any timeouts.

    On a scale of importance from 1 to 100, 100 being the highest, I would rank it about 14. It's not going to stop me from watching games, nor is it going to make me jump for joy if they removed the rule.

  25. #72
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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    why is it stupid???
    Only because it changes during the last two minutes.

    A timeout taken with a "full" shotclock should allow for the ball to be advanced to midcourt at any point in the game. But if you call timeout while the ball is in play, you should get it where you called it. (IOW, if you called timeout because you got trapped in the backcourt, the timeout doesn't fully bail you out of advancing the ball.) Those are both true now during the last two minutes. I think the rule should apply to the entire game, and that colleges and high schools should adopt it as well.

    Although... if you really wanted drama, bring back Dr. Naismith's idead of a jump ball after every made basket. I didn't say it would make the game better, but it would certainly add a new element to a team's last-minute strategy.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  26. #73
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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    Actually, if you didn't need to manufacture ways to make the NBA entertaining, we wouldn't have the shot clock or the 3-point line.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  27. #74
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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    I think giving players a 25% shorter season is a pretty big give, to be honest. 25% less wear and tear -> longer careers -> more money. Not to mention the enjoyment of the season being less of a grind.
    No. 25% shorter season is 25% less revenue for BRI, so everyone takes a 25% paycut. Let's say the average career of a first-round drafted player is 8 years. Are you really going to be able to extend that to 10 years to make up the missing BRI?
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  28. #75
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    Default Re: How to improve the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The 2008 Celtics would like to thank you and retro-actively apply it so they can have the #1 pick in the draft 2 weeks after winning the NBA title.
    Unless I am missing something, you're misinterpreting what Bill is saying. I don't agree with him, but he's suggesting instead of a lottery based on percentage of ping pong balls, divide the picks for non-playoff teams by the five season average. The Celtics wouldn't have been in the running in your scenario because they were in the playoffs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Meanwhile, the Chicago Bulls, San Antonio Spurs and every other dynasty suddenly or soon-to-be discontinued by age would like to know why they are being penalized for running a good franchise
    This is a fair point. But I think there might be plenty of turnover once teams get several top 8 draft picks that if a team wins a championship then dissolves the entire squad (like the Marlins tend to do) that it wouldn't take five straight years of being terrible to turn a team around - especially with a front office capable of winning a title in the first place. And if a team spends more than just a few years in the bottom 5, then chances are they aren't drafting well enough to not let quality players slip down to the mid-teens.

    Once again, I'm not advocating the position. I'm not sure there's really a way to fix the current system without causing more problems.
    Last edited by avoidingtheclowns; 08-09-2010 at 04:45 PM.

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