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    Default Coaching options

    this topic may be a year early but was wondering who pacer fans would like to see replace JOB as coach? presuming we have a top 15 pick next year and can land a top 4 point guard in the draft, also add some talent to the roster via FA or trade, along with the cap space, and in essence appear attractive to some top notch coaches.

    some names ive heard come up include Sam Mitchell, Mark Jackson, and Scott Skiles to name a few.

    personally i like the Scott Skiles idea, but am certainly open to suggestion. anyone else have ideas on who they would like to see replace JOB as coach of the pacers next year?

    im going out on a limb here and stating JOB will not be in the running for the COY award.

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    Default Re: Coaching options

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    this topic may be a year early but was wondering who pacer fans would like to see replace JOB as coach?

    some names ive heard come up include Sam Mitchell, Mark Jackson, and Scott Skiles to name a few.
    I have not heard any good arguments to replace Jim O'Brien.

    What makes you think that Scott Skiles (whom I love, by the way) is available?

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    Default Re: Coaching options

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    this topic may be a year early but was wondering who pacer fans would like to see replace JOB as coach? presuming we have a top 15 pick next year and can land a top 4 point guard in the draft, also add some talent to the roster via FA or trade, along with the cap space, and in essence appear attractive to some top notch coaches.

    some names ive heard come up include Sam Mitchell, Mark Jackson, and Scott Skiles to name a few.

    personally i like the Scott Skiles idea, but am certainly open to suggestion. anyone else have ideas on who they would like to see replace JOB as coach of the pacers next year?

    im going out on a limb here and stating JOB will not be in the running for the COY award.
    Sam Mitchell is an assistant for the Nets now. I would like to see Lawrence Frank or Jeff Van Gundy
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    Default Re: Coaching options

    Bill L.

    I think we've got the perfect set of young guys for him to coach. It'd be a good situation for him and the team. Not to mention, he's proven he's a good coach.

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    Default Re: Coaching options

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Bird View Post
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    I have not heard any good arguments to replace Jim O'Brien.

    You might want to look in the archives at ALL the fire O'Brien threads.

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    Default Re: Coaching options

    Scott's got too good a thing going. It's certainly possible it could fizzle out like Chicago did, but I think he's there for a while.

    I like Sam, but I need to go with what I said last go 'round. No retreads! We missed the boat on some great assistants last time, we need to take a hard long look at guys like Ty Corbin and Mike Budenholzer.
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    Default Re: Coaching options

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    You might want to look in the archives at ALL the fire O'Brien threads.


    I said "good arguments".



    There's an echo chamber here.

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    Default Re: Coaching options

    Before thinking about the next coach you really need to consider the possibility that the FO isn't as fed up with O'Brien as the majority of Pacer Nation. Also, the little story about Bird being PO'ed at his Celtic teammates back in the day for giving up on the coach might add some stubbornness to the decision to keep O'Brien around.

    Everyone seems to have their own twist on thinking why O'Brien is still here and most of them assume the FO wants him gone as bad as the majority of us. But whatever the reason he's still here there's always the possibility it's because Bird, Simon, et al actually want to keep him around.
    Last edited by Bball; 08-07-2010 at 11:59 AM.
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    Default Re: Coaching options

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Bird View Post
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    I have not heard any good arguments to replace Jim O'Brien.

    What makes you think that Scott Skiles (whom I love, by the way) is available?

    :
    first point would be Bird has stated before that after 3 years a coach loses his team more along the way. after this season JOB will have been here 4 seasons. so there is at least one good reason Bird may consider replacing him. i can think of plenty more but no need to spend the effort.

    i would ask, what then does JOB need to do to keep his job after this season.. is 42 wins good enough to keep him around? anything less than 40?

    i think anything less than a playoff team and JOB is gone, and i happen to think this team is good enough to get in. i still think for the reason i listed above that Bird will be looking to make a change soon.. unless there are zero coaches out there that interest him JOB will not be around after next season barring an unbelivable performance.

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    Default Re: Coaching options

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Bill L.

    I think we've got the perfect set of young guys for him to coach. It'd be a good situation for him and the team. Not to mention, he's proven he's a good coach.
    Bill L.??

    bill laimbeer.. lol

    i hope like h3ll your not referring to that clown..

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    Default Re: Coaching options

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Before thinking about the next coach you really need to consider the possibility that the FO isn't as fed up with O'Brien as the majority of Pacer Nation. Also, the little story about Bird being PO'ed at his Celtic teammates back in the day for giving up on the coach might add some stubbornness to the decision to keep O'Brien around.

    Everyone seems to have their own twist on thinking why O'Brien is still here and most of them assume the FO wants him gone as bad as the majority of us. But whatever the reason he's still here there's always the possibility it's because Bird, Simon, et al actually want to keep him around.
    or because it would saved the Pacers money at the time. If they actually wanted to keep him around , why give him only a 1 year extension?

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    Default Re: Coaching options

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    im going out on a limb here and stating JOB will not be in the running for the COY award.
    I hope he wins COY.

    Seems to guarantee that he will be fired shortly thereafter.
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    Default Re: Coaching options

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Before thinking about the next coach you really need to consider the possibility that the FO isn't as fed up with O'Brien as the majority of Pacer Nation. Also, the little story about Bird being PO'ed at his Celtic teammates back in the day for giving up on the coach might add some stubbornness to the decision to keep O'Brien around.

    Everyone seems to have their own twist on thinking why O'Brien is still here and most of them assume the FO wants him gone as bad as the majority of us. But whatever the reason he's still here there's always the possibility it's because Bird, Simon, et al actually want to keep him around.
    I hear ya, but not me. It's always been clear that JOB is here because Bird wants him here.

    I think Bird has some good qualities. But I think he's missing a few screws when it comes to relationship intangibles.

    He was a great individual competitor, and that is showing up in his stubbornness to reach $30 million in cap space next summer. But that ability to focus in a narrow way I think may cause him to be blind to a lot of peripheral, important goings on between coach and players that hurts morale, momentum, and consistency.

    If you read Bird's two books, you'll see that, when it comes to relationships, he's actually a softie. And this hurts him as a gm. When he was a player, he wasn't dealing with relationships. He was dealing with a basket and a defender. In that situation, he was ruthlessly successful.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Coaching options

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Before thinking about the next coach you really need to consider the possibility that the FO isn't as fed up with O'Brien as the majority of Pacer Nation.
    Well, they put their money where their mouths are, so it seems to be more than a possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Everyone seems to have their own twist on thinking why O'Brien is still here and most of them assume the FO wants him gone as bad as the majority of us.
    I think that you hear more dissent about the FO than you used to, too. A recent post identified Larry Bird's failings as: 1) Retaining O'Brien; 2) Calling Troy Murphy last year's team MVP.

    David Morway compared trading Jermaine O'Neal's contract to turning an aircraft carrier around; that's an apt analogy for the whole roster, except that it's a much bigger job - more like, say, turning an entire aircraft carrier battle group around.

    This team can be special, but there's a lot of training and development to be done, and yet another personnel sort to go through next summer. The scouting has been phenomenal, and the roster is loaded with potential, including star potential. The coaching staff has done a terrific job of creating roles for their players and in developing their skills, and the players have responded with an impressive work ethic. Team defense took a big step forward this past season, even with the injuries; that's a credit to the coaching staff, too, maybe the most significant accomplishment.

    Coaches don't play the game, players do. As Red Auerbach said, you've got to have the horses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    first point would be Bird has stated before that after 3 years a coach loses his team more along the way. after this season JOB will have been here 4 seasons. so there is at least one good reason Bird may consider replacing him. i can think of plenty more but no need to spend the effort.
    "loses his team more along the way"? - it's not obvious what you mean by this. But one thing is obvious: the fact that coaches often, or even usually, lose a team after three years doesn't mean that they will lose a team. I don't think that you're claiming that Bird thinks you have to change coaches every three seasons. The question is not what often happens, but what IS in fact happening.

    And THAT is what you consider a good argument for replacing Jim O'Brien? A bit theoretical, wouldn't you say? I seem to be saying this a lot: what else have you got?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    i would ask, what then does JOB need to do to keep his job after this season.. is 42 wins good enough to keep him around? anything less than 40?
    This is a really excellent question. I doubt that a benchmark like 41 wins or whatever has been set, nor should it. The players have to win the games, so it depends on the players' effort - your point above about "losing" the team. The coaching staff can teach and inspire, and demand certain things like effort on defense, but that's for nought if you don't have the talent. On the other hand, if the coaching staff loses the team, then it doesn't matter how talented they are.

    A coach has to demand accountability. TJ Ford got benched because he wasn't getting the job done. There may be a "toxic" relationship between TJ and coach right now, but do you think that he shouldn't have been benched? I think that coach did the right thing. It would help the relationship with the team, if I'm reading the situation right (like you, from quite a distance), if Ford were traded before the season.

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    i think anything less than a playoff team and JOB is gone, and i happen to think this team is good enough to get in.
    Here's a different view:

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/news/...kings-4-100803

    17. Indiana Pacers | Future Power Rating: 497
    PLAYERS MANAGEMENT MONEY MARKET DRAFT
    126 (25th) 85 (16th) 167 (1st) 38 (21st) 81 (4th)
    And I happen to think that the roster has some promising young talent, and that it will blossom over the next few seasons (Roy Hibbert already has advanced by leaps and bounds). But this team relies on journeymen and young players for big responsibilities and big minutes. Earl Watson, Brandon Rush, Roy Hibbert, Dahntay Jones, and Tyler Hansbrough (when healthy) all played significant minutes; and that is not a recipe for getting into the playoffs. Fans tend to overvalue their own team's players, of course, especially draft picks.

    Having said that, your comment about the importance of a playoff appearance is well taken. The Pacers need to get there this year because of the financial plan they have in place. That is not only the coaching staff's responsibility, though. You've got to have the horses, and last year the Indiana Pacers did not. They might have made it anyway given better health; that's because the team is well-coached and has been over-achieving. I'm obviously not alone in that assessment - see the link above that rated the Pacers' personnel 25th out of 30.

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    Last edited by O'Bird; 08-07-2010 at 04:19 PM. Reason: Got antsy waiting for the water to boil.
    :

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    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    Bill L.??

    bill laimbeer.. lol

    i hope like h3ll your not referring to that clown..
    Yup

    He's proven to be a good coach, and we've got the right type of players for him. Seems like a good match to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    When [Bird] was a player, he wasn't dealing with relationships. He was dealing with a basket and a defender. In that situation, he was ruthlessly successful.
    Bird was the undisputed leader of his Celtics teams, which had a lot of fine leadership from both players and coaches (Maxwell: "Climb on my back."). I don't think you become a leader like that by making yourself the dictator of a team through force of will; I think that leadership is something that happens in trust and relationships, and in inspiring others to excel and work for a common goal.

    And backing it up with action.

    I'd refer you also to Bill Walton's recent remarks about Larry Bird:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Walton
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    "Larry asked me and I work for Larry Bird. I always have," said Walton. "Larry Bird is the reason that I have the life that I do have. He gave me a chance, a chance to be on his team 25 years ago and I owe Larry everything -- the chance to be able to give back, the chance to be able to do whatever I can to help him in his goals and his dreams."
    :
    Last edited by O'Bird; 08-07-2010 at 02:38 PM. Reason: Making it 33% better.
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    Sounds like a lot of Walton hyperbole to me.

    Before Walton ever met Bird, he was mentored by John Wooden, won several NCAA championships and an NBA title. You think THAT may be why he has the life he has?

    I don't dispute your point about Bird being the Celts team leader. And apparently Walton is alluding to some of that. But team captain is not the same as coach, is not the same as GM.

    And, anyway, my point wasn't that he was dictator. My point was that he is good at trust and relationships. And he can be a real softie. A GM needs to be tough at times, and I wonder if Bird's softness in relationships affects things like his judgement regarding JOB.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Yup

    He's proven to be a good coach, and we've got the right type of players for him. Seems like a good match to me.
    when has laimbeer proven to be a good coach? you mean in the wnba.. secondly i dont want a former piston in charge of the pacers. no disrespect towards your suggestion, but laimbeer is not the guy i want replacing JOB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    But team captain is not the same as coach, is not the same as GM.
    Larry Bird, in fact, was an outstanding coach. A coach has got to demand accountability, sit the guys who aren't getting it done, and make them like it. There's no being a "softie", as you put it, in that arena, and a team that gets to the last round doesn't get there because their leader is not willing to make tough decisions.

    A team leader (not always the captain - leadership can show up all the way through the roster) has got to demand accountability also, as far as that goes, and get in people's faces and say point-blank what is not getting done. Bird was not shy about doing that as a player, so it isn't too surprising that he could do it as a coach. It's harder to do as a player, in fact, because you're on the same level, in a sense, as your teammates.

    :
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    Quote Originally Posted by O'Bird View Post
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    "loses his team more along the way"? - it's not obvious what you mean by this. But one thing is obvious: the fact that coaches often, or even usually, lose a team after three years doesn't mean that they will lose a team. I don't think that you're claiming that Bird thinks you have to change coaches every three seasons. The question is not what often happens, but what IS in fact happening.

    And THAT is what you consider a good argument for replacing Jim O'Brien? A bit theoretical, wouldn't you say? I seem to be saying this a lot: what else have you got?



    This is a really excellent question. I doubt that a benchmark like 41 wins or whatever has been set, nor should it. The players have to win the games, so it depends on the players' effort - your point above about "losing" the team. The coaching staff can teach and inspire, and demand certain things like effort on defense, but that's for nought if you don't have the talent. On the other hand, if the coaching staff loses the team, then it doesn't matter how talented they are.

    A coach has to demand accountability. TJ Ford got benched because he wasn't getting the job done. There may be a "toxic" relationship between TJ and coach right now, but do you think that he shouldn't have been benched? I think that coach did the right thing. It would help the relationship with the team, if I'm reading the situation right (like you, from quite a distance), if Ford were traded before the season.



    Here's a different view:



    And I happen to think that the roster has some promising young talent, and that it will blossom over the next few seasons (Roy Hibbert already has advanced by leaps and bounds). But this team relies on journeymen and young players for big responsibilities and big minutes. Earl Watson, Brandon Rush, Roy Hibbert, Dahntay Jones, and Tyler Hansbrough (when healthy) all played significant minutes; and that is not a recipe for getting into the playoffs. Fans tend to overvalue their own team's players, of course, especially draft picks.

    Having said that, your comment about the importance of a playoff appearance is well taken. The Pacers need to get there this year because of the financial plan they have in place. That is not only the coaching staff's responsibility, though. You've got to have the horses, and last year the Indiana Pacers did not. They might have made it anyway given better health; that's because the team is well-coached and has been over-achieving. I'm obviously not alone in that assessment - see the link above that rated the Pacers' personnel 25th out of 30.

    :

    basically Bird has stated in his own stint with the Pacers and when Carlisle was let go that 3 years is about the extent that any coach should stay with one team. Im not saying i agree with it, but overall there is some validity to that philosophy, but obviously there are exceptions like Jerry Sloan in Utah. im not sure what Bird meant by that statement but im sure many on here are aware that these comments have been made from Bird.

    therefore, based off of birds feelings about a coach not staying longer than 3 years tentatively speaking, i would say without significant improvement from JOB this season that he may be let go.

    furthermore, this thread is purely hypothetical.. the last thing i wanted to get into was another JOB debate about whether he is a good coach for this team or not.

    if you feel JOB is the right man for the job so be it.. state that and go on your merry way. but overall most pacer fans want JOB gone.. i would guess at least 75%. regardless of whether JOB is replaced or not.. im simply asking for opinions on who many would suggest to become the next coach of the Pacers.

    nothing more nothing less.

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    Default Re: Coaching options

    I didn't expect to see a day when Larry Bird was called soft.

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    Default Re: Coaching options

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    basically Bird has stated in his own stint with the Pacers and when Carlisle was let go that 3 years is about the extent that any coach should stay with one team.
    If he really thinks that, why, then, did he retain Jim O'Brien?

    Can you provide a link, so that we can see what Larry Bird actually said?

    :
    Last edited by O'Bird; 08-07-2010 at 04:41 PM. Reason: Larry's sake
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    Default Re: Coaching options

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Bird View Post
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    If he really thinks that, why, then, did he retain Jim O'Brien?

    Can you provide a link, so that we can see what Larry Bird actually said?

    :
    i tried to find a link regarding his statement and was unable to do so. im not gonna spend on hour searching for the comments he made. but im certain most pacer fans are aware that bird has stated exactly what ive paraphrased in that 3 years is about the length any coach should stick around.

    why did he retain JOB, i wonder the same thing myself. my only reasonable explanation is we cannot acquire the kinda coach he wants until there is more talent on this roster. as im sure you know SVG was the original choice for the pacers head coaching position but he turned us down. thus, until this team is on the upswing again, which will likely be next year with another solid draft and hopefully a player or two added via FA or trade, then is when a more successful coach will be considered. until then JOB is the guy we have to stick with, which sorta makes sense. why fire JOB when the roster is still a year or two away from becoming more competitive.

    i dont see JOB lasting past this season unless he wins 50 and/or gets us into the playoffs.

    which brings me to the purpose of this thread, who is the coach that pacers fans feel will bring this team more success. if there isnt one then more than likely JOB will continue as the pacers head coach.

    until there is a potential upgrade, JOB will continue, and until the roster is more talented, its likely a more successful coach will not want to come here.

    who really things byron scott wouldve taken the cavs job if he would have known LeBron would not stay. coaches want a team that gives them an opportunity to be successful.

    if JOB is such a great coach, then why would he have accepted the pacers job, when it was obvious this team was not gonna be considered elite for at least a few seasons.

    JOB is here until the team improves, once this happens im interested in who pacer fans would like to see take over.

  27. #25
    streets ahead
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    Default Re: Coaching options

    This is from an ESPN piece about the Isiah firing and Carlisle being Larry's top choice.

    ...Walsh said Thomas would "possibly" have remained on if Bird had not been hired, though he had similar concerns the Pacers wouldn't regroup under Thomas.

    "I would have been very worried about going into the season because I would agree that I think that it could blow up early," Walsh said. "And if it did, then we'd be in a worse situation."

    The team said it would honor the final year of Thomas' contract.

    Bird guided the Pacers to the 2000 NBA Finals and had the best three-year record in their NBA history during his time as coach.

    "I've always said, three years and you need a new coach," Bird joked.

    Indiana had the best record in the Eastern Conference at the All-Star break this past season, making Thomas the All-Star coach, but went 14-19 the rest of the season and lost in the first round of the playoffs to Boston...

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1604235
    I think presenting this quote (as many on PD do) as some sort of Bird Doctrine regarding the handling of each and every coach is a bit ridiculous.

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