Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

  1. #1
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,912

    Default Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    I think it is important to ask this question right now. Reason being is I fear that many of you are forgetting why the pacers won 61 games. And no this is not all about Artest

    From everything I have read in this forum since the season ended, I have gleemed this:

    Our starting shooting guard refuses to shoot and is a huge defensive liability.

    Our starting center can't shoot and offers nothing offensively. He gets pushed around and can only guard certain players.

    Our starting point guard has improved his defense and has gotten better, but still has trouble shooting even though he is left wide open

    Our 6th man never passsed the ball and took way too many turn around jumpers.

    Fred Jones is too small to play the shooting guard and still can't shoot.

    AJ can't pass, can't handle the ball and certainly cannot run an offense.

    Pollard is just horrible.

    Bender is injured.

    Croshere is inconsistant

    And now in the past few days we hear that Artest's defense is enhanced by the coaches/defensive system. He is an offensive liability, a ball hog who dribbles too much and tries to do too much.


    So I guess the Pacers won for two reasons. Great coaching and J.O.

    If I have not watched every game this past season (except the Cavs game) and if I just went by the things I have read in this forum I would say that J.O must be the best player in the league and the Pacers have the best coaching staff in the NBA, or maybe many of you believe the pacers won 61 games with smoke and mirrors.

    Winning 61 games is not easy

  2. #2
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Northside Bias
    Posts
    12,967

    Default Re: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    You forget that the average attention span on this board is about 1.5 games. Hence, all people remember is what happened after JO got hurt and Tinsley was already out. The only thing they remember about Artest is his *****up at the end of game 6.
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  3. #3
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Northside Bias
    Posts
    12,967

    Default Re: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    As for the answer to your question, it was all because of the inspired cheerleading of Peanut Butter and Siggy. Now that they're gone, we're just plain screwed.
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  4. #4
    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lappy Go Hucky
    Age
    26
    Posts
    17,540

    Default Re: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    very nice post

    I get tired of hearing the reggie, AJ, Fred, and Bender ones.

    Different look at it (And how we won 61)





    Our starting shooting guard shoots well and hardly ever turns the ball over, and is clutch.

    Our starting center grabs boards like nobodys business and plays some good D.

    Our starting point guard has improved his defense and has gotten better, and shot .380 from 3 land.

    Our 6th man defends well, and took way too many turn around jumpers, but made his share of them.

    Fred Jones is small, but athletic, and has developed a decent shot.

    AJ can't pass, can't handle the ball and certainly cannot run an offense, when compared to Jason Kidd, but is good for a back up PG.

    Pollard is just misunderstood.

    Bender is my favorite Pacer. (OK, I couldn't find much that he did for our season)

    Croshere is a solid 11-15 min a game guy.

    Artest's defense is superb, and improved still by our system, even though his offense can be sloppy at times.


    So I guess the Pacers won for two reasons. Great coaching and a great team.





    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

  5. #5
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Bilthoven, The Netherlands
    Age
    38
    Posts
    9,020

    Default Re: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    You forget that the average attention span on this board is about 1.5 games. Hence, all people remember is what happened after JO got hurt and Tinsley was already out. The only thing they remember about Artest is his *****up at the end of game 6.
    As someone else said a little earlier in another topic... "And we have a winner!" You are correct Keggie!

    Regards,

    Mourning
    2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

    2011 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

    2006 PD ABA Fantasy League runner up, sports.ws

  6. #6
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    23,747

    Default Re: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    I agree.

    Had to be Peanut Butter and Siggy.

    And now that we've traded PB for a lazy, mental, emotionally broken center with conditioning issues, we won't even have that.

    Time to break up the team, no doubt.
    Welcome to Pacers Digest! New around here? Here are three tips for making the forum a great place to talk about Pacers basketball.

    • Log in. Even if you want to read instead of post, it's helpful because it lets you:
    • Change your signature options. You can hide all signatures by choosing "Settings" (top right) then "General Settings" (middle left) and unchecking the box "Show Signatures" (in the "Thread Display Options" area).
    • Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

    Enjoy your time at PD!

  7. #7
    A Magical Place Hoop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Greenwood
    Posts
    4,559
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

  8. #8

    Default Re: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    So I guess the Pacers won for two reasons. Great coaching and J.O.
    Funny you should mention that, UB, but yes, great coaching was the difference. Last year's team was essentially the same team that Isiah coached the previous season. If coaching wasn't the difference, then what was?

    Here is a post that I made Oct. 4, 2003 on realgm:

    Carlisle is the difference here, friends. He took a less-talented team to the ECFs last year. I bet he feels like a kid in a candy store right now. He will bring the discipline and forward thinking to the team that's been lacking for so long. He will shine here, and so begins the road to an amazing coaching career. He's learned from one of the best basketball minds ever to grace the game.

    56 wins. We beat either the Pistons or the Nets in the ECFs, and face the Lakers in the finals.
    I was close. Anyway, care to convince me otherwise, UB? What was the significant difference from 2002-03 to 2003-04?


  9. #9
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,766

    Default Re: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    Hmmmm......

    So people are starting to trash a player who contributed to our team last season & are already starting to think about how the new player will be an improvement?

    Welcome to my hell Uncle Buck.

    Let's see during the season Ron was the perfect compliment to O'Neal. He could score from in the post, shoot with some distance, pass, play defense & rebound.

    Now that a trade may be coming he is a headcase, troublemaker, ballhog, inconsistant long distant shooter, never passes, is overrated as a defender & doesn't rebound enough.

    Deja Vu all over again.

    Brad Miller during the season was the perfect compliment to O'Neal. He could score in the post, shoot with some range, pass, play defense & rebound.

    When a trade was immenent he became a player who always had his shot blocked, was inconsistant from the floor, nobody ever questioned his passing for some reason, his defense was a joke & he only rebounded when he wanted to.

    I will never understand why fans feel the need to trash a player just because they are being traded.

    Ron has problems, there can be almost no argument to that, but he is a good player. He did a lot of good here & if he is moved I think we should just wish him well & move on.

    Now as to why we won 61 games last season.

    Well, we did have great coaching.

    Jermaine O'Neal is a superb player.

    The East to start the season was pretty weak, even we have to admit that. But as the season went on it evened out a little.

    But & this is just my opinion here, our # 1 reason for being so good was our perimater defense. We were one of the most physical teams I've ever seen away from the basket. We were NOT a physical team in the post, but between Ron, Fred, Al, Jeff, Anthony & even Jamaal down towards the end we were very very physical outside.

    Of course the catalyst of this was Ron.

    But even as much as I admit that Ron was important to the team last season I have no problem cutting him loose because of everything else that is going on.

    IMO, it comes down to J.O. or Artest.

    Who do you choose?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  10. #10
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    20,360

    Default Re: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    It feels different when you're on the other side doesn't it? You watch the people line up behind whatever the team appears to have done. ... or not done (as has happened often in Pacerland) and shout their undying faith and belief in the situation. Players that you once thought almost all respected become a dirty word.

    Some posters could argue for days about a player saying he should be gone and the Warriors would march into battle united in their defense of that player... until it becomes obvious management IS going to trade that player. Then the tune changes. These same people now are ready to tear that player apart... even if they once defended him. Hence the frustration sometimes felt.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  11. #11
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    20,360

    Default Re: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    "Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games"

    Oh... that is simple... They scored more points than the opposition on 61 occassions. :P

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  12. #12

    Default Re: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    But & this is just my opinion here, our # 1 reason for being so good was our perimater defense. We were one of the most physical teams I've ever seen away from the basket. We were NOT a physical team in the post, but between Ron, Fred, Al, Jeff, Anthony & even Jamaal down towards the end we were very very physical outside.

    Of course the catalyst of this was Ron.
    And again I ask, what changed between 2002-03 and 2003-04 that made such a difference?


  13. #13
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    20,360

    Default Re: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    Quote Originally Posted by bulletproof
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    But & this is just my opinion here, our # 1 reason for being so good was our perimater defense. We were one of the most physical teams I've ever seen away from the basket. We were NOT a physical team in the post, but between Ron, Fred, Al, Jeff, Anthony & even Jamaal down towards the end we were very very physical outside.

    Of course the catalyst of this was Ron.
    And again I ask, what changed between 2002-03 and 2003-04 that made such a difference?
    Larry Bird was hired.... :P

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  14. #14

    Default Re: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by bulletproof
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    But & this is just my opinion here, our # 1 reason for being so good was our perimater defense. We were one of the most physical teams I've ever seen away from the basket. We were NOT a physical team in the post, but between Ron, Fred, Al, Jeff, Anthony & even Jamaal down towards the end we were very very physical outside.

    Of course the catalyst of this was Ron.
    And again I ask, what changed between 2002-03 and 2003-04 that made such a difference?
    Larry Bird was hired.... :P

    -Bball
    And you'd be partly right.


  15. #15
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,766

    Default Re: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    Quote Originally Posted by bulletproof
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    But & this is just my opinion here, our # 1 reason for being so good was our perimater defense. We were one of the most physical teams I've ever seen away from the basket. We were NOT a physical team in the post, but between Ron, Fred, Al, Jeff, Anthony & even Jamaal down towards the end we were very very physical outside.

    Of course the catalyst of this was Ron.
    And again I ask, what changed between 2002-03 and 2003-04 that made such a difference?
    Oh, you'll get no argument from me about coaching.

    But I do want to add one small thing. Adding to the physical nature of our perimater play was the addition of Anthony Johnson & the increased improvement of Fred Jones.




    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  16. #16
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    London UK
    Posts
    8,706

    Default Re: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    Hogwash, most of it, Ron is one of the biggest talents out on any court in the NBA.
    We know little or nothing about "issues" unless we want to play tabloids and point to all the "little" things as headaches and such to say those things weren't real, it was something else, we nay know what however.
    As a player; few are better or more talented.
    He's 24 years old for crying out loud, he has yet to reach his prime and become an adult, please don't tell me about wives and kids, any dick can make kids.

    As for why we won 61 games? Because we have a pretty good team.
    Yes we did lack some perimeter scoring, though some stepped up unexpectedly to do their part, without Tins' injury who knows he might have rained a few on the Pistons and the outlook would have been different.

    Yes JO is reaching that very elite status, not because he is talked about but because he is a hard worker with loads of talent.

    Yes coaching was better, but the players were a year older and at the aaverage age our players are, that one year is a world of difference, please compare JO over his last 3 years to the man who's team the Pacers became at this moment.

    Bender defintely had an influence, after all he averages 1 pt per minute, to sad he only averaged 2 or 3 minute per game over 82 games.

    The addition of AJ helped, and not to forget Kenny Anderson, who sadly fell of the face of the earth, but let's not forget he opened up within the concept and helped us win a number of games.
    Tins grew up, his 3d year in the league and he made strides that make the comparison with Kidd more and more correct.
    Jeff took well to starting, Al took less well to being 6th man, but had his games, to sad he couldn't bring it every time, but he to is still growing up.

    Reggie, he did his thing in games that were important early in the season and later in the season, we forget how he did his Knicks display in MSG and only focus on the block and the passed up shot in the ECF.

    We do the same with Ron, we forget his contributions during the season and most importantly his performance during the playoffs, against Miami AND against Detroit, we focus on the game he started playing when we lost our starting PG, added to his frustration over AJ, (yes most of the season he was).

    Freddie coming to terms with some of his talents helped us a great deal to, Cro was the same as the years before (yes evenhis minutes) and Polly was plain funny, which could be more valuable then we think at times

    In all this team matured a year, as they have done again, that was the main difference.
    JO took up his part in leading the team and made it clear after the ECF; My Team.

    We do not know "off the court issues" we believe some here in their reports, we conclude our own upon speculation, because why else would they trade him, we forget the little sentences in articles and interviews, such as when Al was traded that talks about Ron added and Terry added (among others) were shot down by Rick, yes read it again, it says it right there.

    We overlook other possibilities, like LB not liking Ron personally, his attitude (LB's) could be one that doesn't stroke to well with Ron's, and he can simply want him out, for a plentitude of reasons.

    Make no mistake, the trade proposed is a "decent" one, we gain a 3 time all star for a one time allstarr dpoy, and yes he is not as bad at defense as people make him to be, the trade would be a "fair" trade where both parties gain, and lose.

    Do I want Ron gone? NO, I love the man, including all his problems, there are more troublesome players on the courts and hanging on has paid of handsomely for those who were prepared to go the extra mile(s) see Rodman, Iverson, Kobe, Wallace and those are just a few.
    Can I change anything? nope, I can not, I do not have a vote, just an opinion, I can choose to let the team drop from my sight, but why would I, this kind of crap always happens, some of us are still brooding over Dale, where other can't let go of the Brad thing, perhaps rightly, I nay know, but it seems a lot of negative energy to waste, certainly when dealing with the now.
    Management will make decision we do not like, often, despite our protest or opinions.
    IF the trade goes down, do we still have a team that is considered a contender? yes, more so or less so, I don't know, it could be that the 1-2 JO Pedja is one that people in the NBA will start fearing before they see them a second time, it could be that Artest lifts the Kings over the hump, we do not know before the end of the season.

    IF Ron leaves, because management decides it, then I personally am glad I could witness his enormous talent on our team, his winning attitude might have rubbed of on other players and I do wish him a ring at one stage of his career, just not against the Pacers.

    We (the team) grew over time, a new manager came in and made changes, and will make more, it could lift us over the hump straight into a championship, or kill the team and in that case send us back to mediocrity for years to come, because if that happens, more players will not renew, not want to come here or just plain leave here.

    I look forward to the new season, the off-season being a bore, so bad we talk about nightmare scripts, We will know what team we have when training camp starts.

    I would like it to be with Ron, but if Larry wants him out, then I can live with Pedja, better then with f.i. Damp.

    chill out brothren, we will all rejoice when they win, and cry when they lose, no matter who's on the floor, but let's be honest, with JO and supporting cast, we have a decent chance for a number of years.

    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  17. #17
    Offical Thread Killer TheSauceMaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Age
    46
    Posts
    3,889
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    You forget that the average attention span on this board is about 1.5 games. Hence, all people remember is what happened after JO got hurt and Tinsley was already out. The only thing they remember about Artest is his *****up at the end of game 6.
    Yep that about summed it up I think


  18. #18
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,912

    Default Re: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    Bulletproof. I am not comparing '03 with '04 I agree with you that the difference between those two season was the coaching. Pacers IMO were the best coached team in the NBA last season, or as well coached the Pistons and Spurs.
    But that was not my point at all,

    My point is there were other reasons besides coaching and J.O, for 61 wins, and as I did say I fear the pacers are losing or trading away many of the things that led them to 61 wins. This is not only about Artest.

    I just want people to think about how rare 61 wins is and to think about how or why they won 61 games.


    Edit: Peck and Bball...point well made. But I was being critical of Brad's defense, and having his shot blocked throughout the season. But Brad is a great passer and offensively he was a perfect complement to J.O. Never said antyhing different than that.


    The Atlanta Hawks of the late 80's always ring in my head. I realize that the Pacers and Hawks situation is diferent. But the Hawks had a young team that was very well coached and had great chemistry, then they traded for Reggie Theus, an aging Moses Malone, and on paper they looked like they really improved themselves, but the team was never the same, and I learned a lot from that. We know the pacers won 61 games last season, with Peja and Jax minus Al and Ron we have no idea
    [edit=24=1092153094][/edit]

  19. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Frankfort, IN
    Posts
    9,136

    Default Re: Why or how did the Pacers win 61 games

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I just want people to think about how rare 61 wins is and to think about how or why they won 61 games.
    They didn't - it was all a dream.

    Seriously, they created horrible matchup problems because they could come at teams from so many different directions. They had one of the top five post players in the game in JO. You had slasher/scorers like Artest and Harrington. You had the hustle guy in Foster whose impact is bigger than his numbers. You had a very coherent system and a PG in Tinsley who could execute it.

    The Pacers could not only come at you with different people but be effective with two totally different game plans - throw it in to JO and play off that or open the floor and attack the rim.

    When you add the defense to that it makes a pretty special team. Add a Jon Barry or another outside shooter to complement Reggie and you don't have many weaknesses.

    Don't know if you'll get 61 this year. You're stronger but so is Detroit and several other EC teams have upgraded quite a bit. But 55-58 should be in the works.

    I definitely think trading both Harrington and Artest from a 61-win team is too much. Go another season with what you have, see if Ron further straightens up (he's already light-years ahead of the 02-03 season) and if it doesn't work he'll still be sought after next summer - impact player, reasonable salary, etc.

    The only reason for urgency IMO is if there's some sense within the organization that you have to get a ring for Reggie. Other than that the Pacers need to keep building. The team's young and should keep improving.
    [edit=50=1092156214][/edit]
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •