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    Default T-Bird Analysis of Roy Hibbert from Front Page

    Another post from T-Bird on the Front Page that should be discussed here (I need to make a template for this purpose somehow, I guess)

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/wordpress/?p=118

    Coach 粗m up, summer of 2010: Roy Hibbert
    By thunderbird1245, on July 25th, 2010
    This post marks the first of a series for this summer, highlighting our top returning players. This series of articles will be both about what I feel like each player featured can improve in their games (and how they can achieve that in some cases), and how our current coaching staff can best utilize them from a strategic standpoint to get the most out of them as individuals, and how they can be best used to help the team succeed this upcoming season.

    First in this series will be the Pacers returning center, Roy Hibbert.

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    The first thing Roy Hibbert must do to improve his game is to simply play more minutes. Hibbert needs to get his playing time to increase up over 30 minutes a night this season to continue his progression and to help our team be more competitive on a nightly basis. Arguably our team痴 most important and popular player, Hibbert痴 continued growth is vital for the Pacers franchise going forward.

    Hibbert has never been a big minute guy at any level, so getting to the 30-32 minute a night standard will not be easy for him to do, but if we are to win games on a regular basis, he simply has to get there.

    There are lots of things to discuss about how to make that happen.

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    Roy Hibbert gets in foul trouble alot, most of the time being slow to help his teammates defensively. We致e got to get a foul or 2 less a game from Hibbert in these situations. The easiest thing to have is to just not have his teammates get beaten so often themselves, eliminating the need for Hibbert to help in the first place. I値l discuss that in later articles, but it merited being mentioned now.

    But this is how to coach up Hibbert, so we will stick to him in this piece.

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    Watching tape of our play preparing for this series, some things become clear when watching Roy Hibbert play defense:

    1. Hibbert is a 杜an hugger. What I mean by that is that Hibbert stays too close to his man, and too low on the baseline when he is in help position. What this creates is too much ground for him to have to cover when he has to move his feet to try and help against drivers, and his man oriented defense means he can稚 see the ball as well when it is opposite him, so he can稚 anticipate plays before they happen.

    Playing too flat is a big deal. It means he doesn稚 do what is called 都howing your help early. What that means is this: a driver looks into the lane, and sees Roy not in good help position, and the opponent with the ball (likely being guarded by a poor Pacer defender already) looks into the paint and tells himself he can get to the rack before Hibbert can get there to cut him off.

    If Hibbert would move FURTHER AWAY AND FURTHER UP the floor from his own man, he could 堵et his pointers out and see the ballhandler better, and in turn the ball handler would see him as well, already in help position. Therefore, many drives we give up could be stopped before they even occur.

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    The rules of course prevent Hibbert from doing what I described in the last paragraph all of the time, because some of that time doing that would get him called for defensive 3 seconds. (which is one of sports dumbest rules by the way)

    So, what he needs to do is to be able to slide in that position, then slide back out of the lane, then slide back into the lane again. To do that, Hibbert is going to have to do some things better than he does now.

    First, he needs to quit being in mediocre condition. We all love Hibbert, but part of his foul trouble comes from mistakes he makes while fatigued. This is unacceptable considering he doesn稚 play as many minutes as top flight centers anyway. Hibbert needs to force himself to become one of the top conditioned centers in the league, so he never plays a minute while being more tired than his opponent.

    Secondly, he needs to play with better balance. He needs to not just GET in a defensive stance in help position, but he needs to STAY in one. Hibbert relaxes away from the ball too much, which along with being too close to his man makes him appear even slower than he actually is. He needs to 菟lay forward, weight up on the balls of his feet in a low stance, and be ready to slide his feet when necessary.

    Thirdly, he needs to get his hands up earlier and more often. Right now his hands are down in help too much (again a product of fatigue and lack of concentration), which means he has to raise them as he is moving or after he meets the driver. They need to be up to start with, both for the intimidation factor his wingspan can give him and for the propulsion and balance advantages having your hands and elbows up can create for you.

    Fourth, when someone does drive and Roy is going to be late, if he is going to foul them he needs to foul them harder. Might as well lay the lumber on someone hard and not let them get an 殿nd one chance, even if it occasionally gets a flagrant foul called on him.

    The Pacers are too soft defensively and need an enforcer around the rim. Hibbert is the closest thing we have as a starting player to be able to do that. I don稚 want us to become the bad boy Pistons, but Big Roy needs to send a message to people that if they dare drive the lane when he is in the game, they might go down hard on their backs as a reward. That threat in and of itself can help prevent certain players in the league from driving as much or as hard through our sometimes swiss cheese like perimeter defense.

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    All that was away from the ball in help. Hibbert can also help himself alot if he壇 play better defense for us on his own man, especially BEFORE his man catches the basketball.

    Hibbert is big enough that he should never need to total front the low post, and any defensive strategy that wants him to do that is flawed fundamentally.

    But he isn稚 good enough to just let his guy catch it deep and then play him from there either. What Roy needs to do is to put forth maximum effort against his man as he is posting up and before the pass is made to him.

    First, Hibbert is going to need to get stronger in his core and in his legs. Quality post play is played from the waist down, not waist up. He needs to use his legs more to try and push people off the block as much as possible, without using his forearms to do it, instead using his knees and hips.

    Secondly, if he learns better balance in his stance, that will help things alot. Hibbert is too often a 澱ender賠.he bends way too much at the waist and leans on people, instead of using quick feet with a good knee bend. This gets him off balance, and makes him slow to react to all things defensively no matter where an attack may come from.

    Lastly, when playing post defense he needs to 都how the pit to the passer. A wise old coach told me this summer that he emphasizes this alot to his players. 鉄howing a pit means simply that if your defensive player on the block will show his armpit to the passer with an outstretched arm in front ( a 1/2 or 2/3 type front) that likely the passer will not feed the post and risk the turnover.

    Here is the cold hard truth, and we see this with our Pacers team as well: Most perimeter guys don稚 want to throw the ball inside anyway if they have a choice! So, 都howing the pit gives that perimeter guy an excuse to tell his coach why he drove or shot it instead of feeding the big guy on the block.

    Playing better defense before your man has the ball will prevent him from getting it to begin with, and give you less chances to pick up fouls.

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    Hibbert has and always will struggle guarding the pick and roll. But can he get better at it somehow?

    Better balance, better stance, better conditioning, better technique, and more effort all are needed here. But still, every player has a weakness, and this is his. How can we improve him?

    I think this is where the coaching staff needs to come to the party a little better prepared.

    It has to be a point of emphasis first of all. We have to improve him in this area, we can稚 just say we will take him out and bench him because of this weakness.he is too important to us. So, we have to make the commitment as a staff to not just take the easy way out and sub in someone when he struggles. That is the first key.

    The tendency is to just say to yourself that Hibbert is slow, so he needs to stay back, not hedge very hard, and play very conservatively on the perimeter. The problem with that is obvious, that is like a flashing green light to coaches around the league to run more screen/roll. Not hedging hard means ballhandlers will turn the corner with ease, and be able to go wherever they want to go..that is not a formula for successful team defense.

    I think the answer is to demand Hibbert hedge HARDER on screen/rolls, leap out quickly and in a strong wide stance for one big slide, to try and make the ballhandler have to make a quicker decision. If the ballhandler drives right into him, he値l have to take a charge hopefully or we will have to live with the consequences of the whistle.

    The ballhandlers man for us (the person being screened) has to always be taught to GET OVER the screen, and not under it. Otherwise he will run into Hibbert when he is trying to recover to his man.going over means he can catch back up at a better angle.

    When a ballhandler tries to split the defense (drive between Hibbert and the person who was screened), then it has to be the responsibility of the other defender to try and stop him. Hibbert can稚 afford to be caught reaching out 25 feet away.

    Now, as a strategy I am stopping one step short of saying we should just trap (or blitz) every screen/roll with Hibbert, but I am not saying I wouldn稚 try that some of the time with him, depending on the time/score, the opponent, his foul situation, etc.

    In general, I壇 probably recommend trapping every screen/roll that an opponent runs that doesn稚 involve Hibbert as our team defensive strategy, and try and pressure people into turnovers and mistakes. Of course that has problems too, but coupled with the smaller/quicker lineup I advocated in my last article, that is how I would go with this team I think. When Hibbert is involved, I壇 just instruct him to go to a hard 都how and go type hedge, and really try to 田oach him up on his balance, technique, effort, and stamina in this area.

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    Offensively, there isn稚 much I don稚 like about Roy Hibbert, except that we don稚 use him as a main scoring weapon often enough. We have way way too many possessions where he never touches the basketball, as we jack up perimeter shots without playing inside out.

    From a strategic standpoint, the Pacers need to have a 途ule of 3″ in regards to Hibbert. That rule being this: Hibbert gets the ball at least every 3 possessions in the post!

    Not saying he has to shoot it, but he has to get a touch of the ball every 3 possessions, if not more often. Good things happen when Hibbert has the ball for us.he scores, or the defense collapses and he can pass it out, and it opens up alot of things for others. The defense has to shift or even double him, which changes the way the game is played entirely. We simply have to go from a finesse type team that shoots jumpers all night long to a team that plays alot of inside/out smashmouth basketball.

    This means our staff has to make sure that happens. That means calling more set plays, slowing the game occasionally to make sure we pound it in to him. Roy needs to become a guy who wears the hat of responsibility for us from an offensive perspective.

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    Since I am advocating getting Hibbert the ball much more often, what can he do to become more efficient?

    In my view, he needs to develop a go to type move, a signature shot that he can get whenever he wants and that forces opponents to try and game plan for.

    Most guys can稚 be Kevin McHale, and have dozens of moves and countermoves that they are extremely proficient at. Hibbert needs something to hang his hat on I think.

    For Hibbert, I壇 like him to continue to develop his right hand hook (going to his left shoulder) and a fadeaway jumper (turning to his right shoulder), along with the up and under rip moves off those. In particular, I think he can become a great back to the basket hook shot guy, shooting over the top of almost everyone in the league.

    Now, what type of hook shot makes sense for him? A big sweeping sky hook like Jabaar or a more conventional 屠ump hook? I don稚 know the answer.that has to be determined by Hibbert himself and the coaches developing him. But those are the moves I think make most sense for him to begin to master.

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    From a footwork perspective, Roy is pretty good already after he catches the ball. He can however be a bit better before he catches it. Like mentioned in the section about his defense, he needs to learn to get leverage not just with his upper body but with his lower body as well. He needs to get wider and lower inside, and present a better target to the Pacers post feeders. At times, (when fatigued or frustrated), he will post up too weakly and too narrowly, not showing his numbers to the target, giving our perimeter guys an excuse to jack up yet another long jumper instead of feeding the beast.

    Basically, what I am saying is Roy has to play harder and be more RELENTLESS in posting up before he gets the ball.

    Along that same line, a major Pacers weakness offensively I think is when Hibbert makes a pass from the post back outside, that we don稚 feed the ball right back in to him enough on a re post. Roy may know that isn稚 a point of emphasis for this staff, but it should be.

    Hibbert needs to pass the ball out, then aggressively try and get deeper position against a relaxing defense, and our passes need to be ready to feed him the ball when he gets it. Our team doesn稚 do that well enough or often enough, not even close.

    Finally , Hibbert needs to get a reliable spot on the floor he can hit a face up jumper at a high rate. Maybe that spot is the elbow, maybe it is the short wing (like Tim Duncan, with a bank shot) or maybe it is the short corner baseline. No matter where it is though, Hibbert needs to develop a sweet spot, so we can arrange things and run plays for him to shoot from there.

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    Hibbert needs to rebound better if he has plans to become an elite center someday. 5 rebounds in 25 minutes simply won稚 cut it. If he can get himself to 30-32 minutes a night next season, he needs to also get himself up to 7-8 rebounds a night.

    We致e already talked about effort and conditioning, so I won稚 belabor the points here again, but keep them in mind obviously as desire and toughness in regards to rebounding are major factors.

    In Hibbert痴 lack of rebounding, I think he can be improved a little bit with better technique.

    The best rebounders, aren稚 guys who 澱lock out alot..the best guys just go get the damn ball. They attack it, read it in flight, slide through timy openings, and get themselves off the ground more quickly than others do. They hunt rebounds and go for them, they don稚 sit around and try to PREVENT YOU from getting a rebound, they go get it themselves!

    Hibbert is not a great rebounder, nor will he ever be. But he can be better than what he has been already. He is a blockout guy, a guy who takes up space, carves out a spot, then hopes the ball comes to him. He isn稚 getting balls outside of his area. This isn稚 all bad, as his blocking out people lets other teammates get rebounds.if that makes sense.

    But even so, he needs to get more rebounds in his own area, and occasionally be able to get some an arms length or 2 away from where he camps. Balls should never go over his head directly like what happens now.

    I think this can be greatly improved by getting him to do 2 things:

    1. Get his arms up AS THE SHOT IS IN FLIGHT, not as it hits the rim.

    2. Get him to block out and move people backwards, but WITH HIS WEIGHT STILL ON THE BALLS OF HIS FEET, NOT ON HIS HEELS MOVING BACK.

    Both these are hard to do, but they can be accomplished.

    As always, the above is just my opinion.

    Tbird

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    Default Re: T-Bird Analysis of Roy Hibbert from Front Page

    Thanks for posting this on the main board. I'm going to try and have this series all complete sometime in mid August. My plan is to write up Granger next, plus I have a few other topics I am getting ready to write about....just have to find the time to write!

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    Default Re: T-Bird Analysis of Roy Hibbert from Front Page

    I really enjoy reading T-Bird's player analysis.

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    Default Re: T-Bird Analysis of Roy Hibbert from Front Page

    Yes, it's a very interesting read.

    In general, I壇 probably recommend trapping every screen/roll that an opponent runs that doesn稚 involve Hibbert as our team defensive strategy, and try and pressure people into turnovers and mistakes. Of course that has problems too, but coupled with the smaller/quicker lineup I advocated in my last article, that is how I would go with this team I think. When Hibbert is involved, I壇 just instruct him to go to a hard 都how and go type hedge, and really try to 田oach him up on his balance, technique, effort, and stamina in this area.
    That would be a very bold move.

    I have some doubts. Are the Pacers quick enough to do this? How much time would you have that small line-up on the floor to make this work? More importantly: even though trapping can work when done sporadically - especially with little time in the clock, against weak ball-handlers, etc - can it be done systematically? If a team knows their opponent is going to trap on every possession, they should be ready to deal with it and get a good look. A team with a big screener that can roll inside and forces a help defender to drop down to him and good shooters on the perimeter only needs the ball-handler to make a first good pass and then rotate the ball to the open guy. Aren't you afraid that trapping so much will be very time consuming in terms of coaching and always risky in terms of results?

    -----

    Just out of curiosity, why aren't comments allowed on the frontpage?

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    Default Re: T-Bird Analysis of Roy Hibbert from Front Page

    I definitely agree with the conditioning. Roy was not capable of playing 30 minutes per game last year, not even close.

    There's some good points in the defensive analysis, but I think the focus there misses the forest for the trees. No one puts the Rik Smits or Pau Gasols of the world on the floor for their defensive prowess (though Pau has shown improvement the last couple years). It's the matchup game -- burn them in the mismatch worse than they burn you.

    For Roy, that means he has to be a huge post threat that gets fed a lot when he's on the floor, and then converts with very high efficiency. If Roy gets to a 27-32 minute level, and he's seen as a legit starter instead of the best we happen to have, he's gotta get 15+ ppg at a high percentage.

    Improvement everywhere is good, but Roy isn't ever going to be a plus defender or rebounder. That leaves scoring if he's an NBA starter.

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    Default Re: T-Bird Analysis of Roy Hibbert from Front Page

    "First, he needs to quit being in mediocre condition. We all love Hibbert, but part of his foul trouble comes from mistakes he makes while fatigued. This is unacceptable considering he doesn’t play as many minutes as top flight centers anyway. Hibbert needs to force himself to become one of the top conditioned centers in the league, so he never plays a minute while being more tired than his opponent."


    I completely disagree on the conditioning for a few reasons:

    1. He is a gym rat. He works his butt off conditioning, working in the gym, and in the weight room.

    2. The reason he is so fatigued is because of the coaching style. If he were in a more slow down half-court offense, he'd be on the floor for 30+/night. 7'+ centers like him do not run up and down the court as easily as 6'10 centers. You'll probably see the difference when we get a new coach next year.
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    Default Re: T-Bird Analysis of Roy Hibbert from Front Page

    Quote Originally Posted by cordobes View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    Just out of curiosity, why aren't comments allowed on the frontpage?
    I'm still undecided on the comments being open versus closed, but my initial thoughts were "I don't want them to cannibalize the forum's posts" and "I don't want to police both this and the forum unless I need to."

    So for now they're off, but I'm not set in stone on that. I'd just need a really good take on why they should be or "need" to be left on.

    I'm concerned that if they're open to non-PD users, it will turn into the IndyStar's comments where it's mostly just a bunch of garbage, and if it's just to PD people, 1) They'd have to register a new account there because the databases are completely separate and 2) Why not just make a thread or comment in said thread on PD if you already have an account here and want to discuss?

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    Default Re: T-Bird Analysis of Roy Hibbert from Front Page

    The conditioning issue is an interesting one. Everything we here - which we have no reason not to believe - is that Roy is probably the hardest working guy on the team. This doesn't fit with him not being in good condition.

    My guess is that Roy's conditioning problems are mostly not physical. Roy is a very cerebral player. His mind probably gets overloaded faster than his body gets tired. However, when he starts to get winded, he probably starts thinking about his fatigue level and making more mental mistakes. There's a chance he'll grow out of this as he starts to get more mature and confident.

    I don't think forcing him to play through fatigue is probably the best way to handle this. I think that giving him shorter periods of play followed by short periods of rest might help. Maybe you play him the first 6 minutes of the game, then rest him 2-3 minutes and put him in for another 6 minutes or so. Obviously if he's on a roll you leave him in the game longer, but in normal situations this quick hook strategy might make him feel fresher.

    On a side note, maybe some of the more coach-oriented folks on here could explain to me why more coaches don't go with a quick sub, constant rotation style. It seems perfect for teams whose coaches ask them to either play an intense defensive or high-paced offensive style. Matt Painter does an excellent job of it at Purdue.
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    Default Re: T-Bird Analysis of Roy Hibbert from Front Page

    Quote Originally Posted by danman View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    For Roy, that means he has to be a huge post threat that gets fed a lot when he's on the floor, and then converts with very high efficiency. If Roy gets to a 27-32 minute level, and he's seen as a legit starter instead of the best we happen to have, he's gotta get 15+ ppg at a high percentage.

    Improvement everywhere is good, but Roy isn't ever going to be a plus defender or rebounder. That leaves scoring if he's an NBA starter.
    One of the most frustrating things about Obrien is that this is not emphasized enough. Everyone knows Hibbert has limitations as a defender, and Obrien will not hesitate to criticize him for it, and use it as an excuse to pull him based on "matchups". However to take full advantage of Roy he needs to be touching the ball a lot more than he is in order to take advantage of the matchup on the other end.

    Instead, time and again you see the perimeter guys jacking shots at the first oppurtunity and leaving Hibbert high and dry. A more structured offense is a necessity if we are going to get the most out of Roy Hibbert. Also, as someone else pointed out, the up and down style isn't doing Roy in any favors if we want him to have the energy to play bigger minutes.

    I would love to see what Hibbert could do in an offense that actually suits his skill set. It is amazing he has done as well as he has given his total mismatch with the current system.
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    Default Re: T-Bird Analysis of Roy Hibbert from Front Page

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    However to take full advantage of Roy he needs to be touching the ball a lot more than he is in order to take advantage of the matchup on the other end.
    Roy Hibbert per 36min shot attempts: 13.6
    Brook Lopez per 36min shot attempts: 13.4

    I know that isn't "touches". Still, Roy gets plenty of shots. What I think you mean is that you want to get the ball to him early -whether he shoots or passes it out- to try to crash the defense and open something up around the perimeter.

    And the key is that if the coach Post-Obrien works with a slower pace, that Hibbert's shots per 36 remains steady. So he gets a bigger % of the offense without running the risk of becoming less efficient.

    If Roy were able to consistently draw fouls, I doubt anyone would complain about the touches he gets. That's one of the biggest problems with Roy.

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