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Thread: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    I need to make this quick, but you're confusing me with others on the "green hick" stuff. I liked Larry just fine when he coached, and I hoped he would stay on afterwards. But all I've seen since he came back is one horrible move after another, and this "clean slate" stuff infuriates me. But hell, if you want to pretend he isn't at fault by saying "we're not sure", that's fine. Judging him on Jimmy's extension and the "let's sit on our hand's for 3 years" plan, he still deserves to go.


    But is it his choice to "sit on his hands" for 3 years? What exactly could he have done over the past couple of years? Our roster is a collective pile of crap that no team wants a part of. No one wants the likes of Murphy, Dunleavy or Ford (yes I know he traded for Ford, but overall that was still a good deal). We've had no money to sign anyone. He's been in about as bad a situation as a GM can be. I seriously doubt he feels that sitting on his hands for 3 years is the ideal situation, it's just that he doesn't have any other choice. His only card to play was to wait for these contracts to expire.

    The reason he has been in such a bad position over the last 2 years is because of the series of bad moves made over the past 10 years. Now it's fine and understandable if one wants to give him blame for some of those. I just happen to place quite a bit more on Walsh given that most of the problem childs were brought to Indy pre-2003.

    The last true asset he had was Jermaine O'Neal. I think we can all agree that he got a pretty good deal for him. In the two years since then he's had absolutely nothing to work with. Only now does he finally have some chips with these expiring contracts.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 07-27-2010 at 03:57 PM.

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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    I need to make this quick, but you're confusing me with others on the "green hick" stuff.
    I know the difference between you and able. You quoted my response to able, and I was merely continuing that part of the conversation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    I liked Larry just fine when he coached, and I hoped he would stay on afterwards. But all I've seen since he came back is one horrible move after another, and this "clean slate" stuff infuriates me. But hell, if you want to pretend he isn't at fault by saying "we're not sure", that's fine. Judging him on Jimmy's extension and the "let's sit on our hand's for 3 years" plan, he still deserves to go.
    Tell me with 100% certainty what he was responsible for under Walsh. If you can definatively draw a line between what he did, and what Donnie did, then I'll agree with you.

    Give me reality based moves that he should of made and I'll agree with you on the present as well.

    I'm pretty sure I started the "Fire JOb" bandwagon. If not, I was one of the first ones on it, considering I've been against it since day 1. I highlighted the biggest complaint on him about how his offense was a ****ty one, and it directly contradicted his defensive philsophy.

    I never wanted RC to be gone. But I atleast understand why JOb is here. He shouldn't be coaching this year, but the previous ones were write off's anyways, so no need to bring in your coach already to wade through all the crap.

    Larry doesn't have anyone to trade, but Granger. After the JO trade, there was literally nothing else that could be done, except wait it out.

    Draft a PG instead of Hans? Okay, that's fine. But they would have still had a **** poor season.

    The only thing that I really wish he would have done was to step in and tell Jimmy to play the younger guys more. Other than that, it would have just been rearranging the chairs.

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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    And the two-headed monster sucked.

    Which is interesting, because Donnie's had a pretty successful career other than that stretch. And Bird has done both good and bad things since then.

    So its really pointless to try to carve up the blame between them. They were a bad team when they were together, and Bird is in charge of cleaning up their collective mess even though the Simons claim they wanted Donnie to stay on when he "retired". Go figure...
    I see the problems that arose during their tenure together as Donnie type moves. It wasn't like when Bird came on there was a change of course. To me, that's the biggest indicator that Bird had input, but Donnie was still in charge. That, and the fact that they've said as much.

    I don't think Bird has made similiar moves since. Donnie-Do-Nothing really isn't what has been going on. Trades haven't been made, but that's not because Larry hasn't tried. There have been quite a few deals that have been made public, that just didn't happen for whatever reasons. Mostly other teams balking. But Larry has been very active. It's just that no one wants to take our collective crap.

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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I see the problems that arose during their tenure together as Donnie type moves. It wasn't like when Bird came on there was a change of course. To me, that's the biggest indicator that Bird had input, but Donnie was still in charge. That, and the fact that they've said as much.
    Oh, I believe the buck stopped with Donnie.

    But we'd never seen Donnie "fall in love with talent" before. We don't know if that was Donnie's personality/ approach changing or Bird's influence. Kenny Williams, Sean Green - those guys had raw talent and when they proved to be too immature they were moved along or not re-signed. That's just two examples. Carlos Rogers is another.

    Having followed Donnie and the Pacers closely for a long time, I did not think the 2003-2008 version of Donnie resembled the "old" Donnie at all. Nor does it resemble the current version of either Donnie working solo in NYC or Bird working solo here. Frankly, they were just bad for each other.

    Having said that... if George and Lance go the same way as Shawne Williams and James White then I think we'll know where "fell in love with talent" originated. I don't think that's going to be the case but it sounds like George is going to need a couple of seasons to develop first -- hopefully Lance's first couple of All-star game appearances help us have patience with George. (was that over the top?)
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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Donnie traded for Ron after Larry quit coaching, and before he was hired in the front office. We know of Ron's behavioral history in Chicago, because of you.

    He decided to take the chance on a nutcase with talent, not Larry.

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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    I tried to stay quiet, I really did...

    Donnie decided to go for (and stick with) talent because he needed to do something to get the team over the top. It failed because of the personnel involved, because of the Pacers' complete inexperience at dealing with wackos, and because of injuries which either destroyed potential or essentially crippled building blocks.

    It was the opposite of "Donnie Do-Nothing", but he gets no credit because it blew up in his face - which is why he never tried it before.
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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Oh, I believe the buck stopped with Donnie.

    But we'd never seen Donnie "fall in love with talent" before. We don't know if that was Donnie's personality/ approach changing or Bird's influence. Kenny Williams, Sean Green - those guys had raw talent and when they proved to be too immature they were moved along or not re-signed. That's just two examples. Carlos Rogers is another.

    Having followed Donnie and the Pacers closely for a long time, I did not think the 2003-2008 version of Donnie resembled the "old" Donnie at all. Nor does it resemble the current version of either Donnie working solo in NYC or Bird working solo here. Frankly, they were just bad for each other.

    Having said that... if George and Lance go the same way as Shawne Williams and James White then I think we'll know where "fell in love with talent" originated. I don't think that's going to be the case but it sounds like George is going to need a couple of seasons to develop first -- hopefully Lance's first couple of All-star game appearances help us have patience with George. (was that over the top?)
    We'd definitely seen Donnie fell in love with talent before. What about 1999-2003 Donnie? Did that Donnie resemble the old Donnie either? I think the embarrassing loss to the young athletic Knicks in 1999 changed Donnie's philosophy more than anything else.

    Harrington in 1998 (before the Knicks loss): If you're drafting a high schooler then you're most likely doing it off of raw talent. Ended up being a good pick though.

    Trading AD for the 5th pick in 1999: Getting the 5th pick in the draft for a guy who came off of the bench was a fantastic move. Too bad he had to waste it on Bender when there were several guys on the board who had shown they could play in college and ended up having long, successful careers in the NBA.

    Trading Dale for JO in 2000: At that point, JO was nothing more than raw talent as he wasn't able to get many minutes on a deep Portland team. Walsh probably could have traded an All-Star big man like Dale for someone who had proven themselves more than JO did at that point but he went the raw talent route instead.

    I think you can definitely say Donnie "fell in love with talent" long before Bird arrived. In the span of 3 years, he managed to draft two high schoolers in the first round and trade a veteran all star for a raw 22 year old who after 4 years in the league had done nothing but struggle for minutes off of the bench.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 07-27-2010 at 04:48 PM.

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    Unhappy Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987 View Post
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    We'd definitely seen Donnie fell in love with talent before. What about 1999-2003 Donnie? Did that Donnie resemble the old Donnie either? I think the embarrassing loss to the young athletic Knicks in 1999 changed Donnie's philosophy more than anything else.

    Harrington in 1998 (before the Knicks loss): If you're drafting a high schooler then you're most likely doing it off of raw talent. Ended up being a good pick though.

    Trading AD for the 5th pick in 1999: Getting the 5th pick in the draft for a guy who came off of the bench was a fantastic move. Too bad he had to waste it on Bender when there were several guys on the board who had shown they could play in college and ended up having long, successful careers in the NBA.

    Trading Dale for JO in 2000: At that point, JO was nothing more than raw talent as he wasn't able to get many minutes on a deep Portland team. Walsh probably could have traded an All-Star big man like Dale for someone who had proven themselves more than JO did at that point but he went the raw talent route instead.

    I think you can definitely say Donnie "fell in love with talent" long before Bird arrived. In the span of 3 years, he managed to draft two high schoolers in the first round and trade a veteran all star for a raw 22 year old who after 4 years in the league had done nothing but struggle for minutes off of the bench.
    That isn't falling in love with talent. Falling in love with talent is keeping a talented player around when it is obvious that they can't stay on the court.

    Trading AD for Bender would most likely have been a great trade if Bender would have been healthy, but no one could have guessed that. Otherwise Bender has shown that mentally he had his head on straight.

    Trading Dale for JO was a great move to. JO had 3 or 4 years in the league, and as soon as he arrived he started to turn into an all-star.

    Most of the moves that Donnie made between 99 and 03 were good moves, the problem came after it started to all fall apart. They handled the situations poorly, but this was also after Bird came onto the team. By the way Bird handled Tinsley I have no doubt in my mind that the way they handled those situations had more to do with Bird than Donnie. I have a hard time believing that Donnie was the instigator behind bringing back Harrington(it was a PR move), if Larry didn't love Diogu I doubt Donnie would have traded for DunMurph instead of just letting Jackson expire after a season. Although I can't blame either one for the handling of Artest since it was a unique situation for the team.

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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Donnie traded for Ron after Larry quit coaching, and before he was hired in the front office. We know of Ron's behavioral history in Chicago, because of you.

    He decided to take the chance on a nutcase with talent, not Larry.
    Donnie wanted Oakley instead of Ron (an expiring), the Bulls wouldn't give us Brad Miller without forcing Artest on him. Just like trading JO for the rights to trade Ford while his value was still high, Rasho's expiring and a #1 was a good trade, the problem was holding onto the tradeabale asset until it wasn't tradeable anymore. Both Donnie in 2002 and Bird in 2008 made that mistake without the "help" of the other guy.

    I understand your point. But the problem is more of "held onto too long" than "should never have been here in the first place."

    Some times, guys just need to be here while passing through, to make other trades happen.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987 View Post
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    We'd definitely seen Donnie fell in love with talent before. What about 1999-2003 Donnie? Did that Donnie resemble the old Donnie either? I think the embarrassing loss to the young athletic Knicks in 1999 changed Donnie's philosophy more than anything else.

    Harrington in 1998 (before the Knicks loss): If you're drafting a high schooler then you're most likely doing it off of raw talent. Ended up being a good pick though.

    Trading AD for the 5th pick in 1999: Getting the 5th pick in the draft for a guy who came off of the bench was a fantastic move. Too bad he had to waste it on Bender when there were several guys on the board who had shown they could play in college and ended up having long, successful careers in the NBA.

    Trading Dale for JO in 2000: At that point, JO was nothing more than raw talent as he wasn't able to get many minutes on a deep Portland team. Walsh probably could have traded an All-Star big man like Dale for someone who had proven themselves more than JO did at that point but he went the raw talent route instead.

    I think you can definitely say Donnie "fell in love with talent" long before Bird arrived. In the span of 3 years, he managed to draft two high schoolers in the first round and trade a veteran all star for a raw 22 year old who after 4 years in the league had done nothing but struggle for minutes off of the bench.
    You're confusing "talent" with "upside". Harrington, Bender, JO all had upside. Two of them sorta hit their potential.

    I'd also argue that Antonio, Reggie, Byron, Derrick, Rik, Jackson, Jalen... those guys were talented too.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Donnie was the one who said we needed to "reload" instead of "rebuild" because this market wouldn't tolerate the losing. I guess he was half right.

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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Staverman View Post
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    Donnie was the one who said we needed to "reload" instead of "rebuild" because this market wouldn't tolerate the losing. I guess he was half right.
    Except he started reloading before the team was out of ammo.
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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I tried to stay quiet, I really did...

    Donnie decided to go for (and stick with) talent because he needed to do something to get the team over the top. It failed because of the personnel involved, because of the Pacers' complete inexperience at dealing with wackos, and because of injuries which either destroyed potential or essentially crippled building blocks.

    It was the opposite of "Donnie Do-Nothing", but he gets no credit because it blew up in his face - which is why he never tried it before.
    great post, I agree.

    as Donnie admitted, I think after he traded Ron. Donnie admitted he "fell in love with talent"

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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Tell me with 100% certainty what he was responsible for under Walsh. If you can definatively draw a line between what he did, and what Donnie did, then I'll agree with you.
    I'm not playing that game. For example, everyone and their mother knows that Larry was the one who got rid of Isiah. But no, there's always the conspiracy theory that Donnie knew that he needed to get rid of Isiah, and he used Larry as cover. Wait until after Jermaine re-signed, and then get rid of him. Regardless of the fact that he'd already let Isiah hire new assistants.

    I can throw out that a week after Rick's hired, Larry fires half the scouts and brings in his friend Joe Ash to run things. But no, I'm sure Donnie wanted to get rid of guys who were to blame for all those horrible drafts we had in the '90's.

    And then, after working on the bench for 25 years, David Craig was abruptly kicked upstairs and the entire medical staff was redone. I'm sure that had just been on Donnie's list of things to do, right in the middle of training camp.

    It's just a coincidence that the entire organization was turned upside down within three months of Larry coming back. Nothing to see here. And surely everything that happened over the next five years, nah, Larry can't be held responsible for any of that, either.

    Look, if I had notarized documentation of everything Larry Bird did, people would just say they were forgeries. Why should we possibly believe that Larry did what he was hired to do, run the basketball operations of Pacers Sports and Entertainment while Donnie took a step back and focused on the business side of things. It's so much easier to look the other way and believe Donnie was the evil puppet master, orchestrating every move, and Larry just went along with it.

    Look, in no way am I saying that Donnie doesn't deserve serious blame. "The buck stops here", to quote Truman. But does that mean we shouldn't hold MacArthur responsible for mistakes he made in Korea? Or should we say maybe they weren't his mistakes, he was just following orders.
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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    The real problem with where the blame falls has roots in the fact that the transition took too long.... IMHO...

    There's just no way to know what would've been different without the two-headed monster in place. As long as you have a committee building a horse you're liable to get a donkey...

    But there are no excuses now. There better be some brilliance at the end of this "3 year plan" or else I suspect there will be torches and pitchforks coming quickly. You can't basically 'do nothing' and hide behind a mythical plan to do 'nothing' and then expect people to be understanding if you don't hit a blackjack right away at the end of it.

    Nobody is going to convince me that spinning our wheels for 3 years shouldn't have involved some end of the season (if not full season) 'tanking' so I'm skeptical there's much brilliance involved in a 3 year plan to do nothing.

    And for the record, tanking doesn't mean losing on purpose. It means trying to win with players that maybe don't give you the best short term chance at winning... but players that are part of the future in one form or the other. Not players that you are waiting on their contracts to expire...
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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    I'm not playing that game. For example, everyone and their mother knows that Larry was the one who got rid of Isiah. But no, there's always the conspiracy theory that Donnie knew that he needed to get rid of Isiah, and he used Larry as cover. Wait until after Jermaine re-signed, and then get rid of him. Regardless of the fact that he'd already let Isiah hire new assistants.

    I can throw out that a week after Rick's hired, Larry fires half the scouts and brings in his friend Joe Ash to run things. But no, I'm sure Donnie wanted to get rid of guys who were to blame for all those horrible drafts we had in the '90's.

    And then, after working on the bench for 25 years, David Craig was abruptly kicked upstairs and the entire medical staff was redone. I'm sure that had just been on Donnie's list of things to do, right in the middle of training camp.

    It's just a coincidence that the entire organization was turned upside down within three months of Larry coming back. Nothing to see here. And surely everything that happened over the next five years, nah, Larry can't be held responsible for any of that, either.

    Look, if I had notarized documentation of everything Larry Bird did, people would just say they were forgeries. Why should we possibly believe that Larry did what he was hired to do, run the basketball operations of Pacers Sports and Entertainment while Donnie took a step back and focused on the business side of things. It's so much easier to look the other way and believe Donnie was the evil puppet master, orchestrating every move, and Larry just went along with it.

    Look, in no way am I saying that Donnie doesn't deserve serious blame. "The buck stops here", to quote Truman. But does that mean we shouldn't hold MacArthur responsible for mistakes he made in Korea? Or should we say maybe they weren't his mistakes, he was just following orders.
    You make good points.

    Now keep in mind that things changed with regards to how much power Larry/Donnie had after the Brawl. It is my understanding that this event caused Donnie to re-take the reins.

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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    And for the record, tanking doesn't mean losing on purpose. It means trying to win with players that maybe don't give you the best short term chance at winning... but players that are part of the future in one form or the other. Not players that you are waiting on their contracts to expire...
    No, it means playing without your best players on the court when they are fully capable of playing.

    Again, the argument that the young guys are better than the guys : was playing is NOT THE SAME ARGUMENT.

    I maintain you cannot keep fans nor can you keep team chemistry when the better guys are benched. Isn't that supposedly the whole argument made for why : somehow lost the team? You can't have both - players hate : because he plays worse players AND somehow that the better strategy would be to play the worse players and lose.
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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    No, it means playing without your best players on the court when they are fully capable of playing.

    Again, the argument that the young guys are better than the guys : was playing is NOT THE SAME ARGUMENT.

    I maintain you cannot keep fans nor can you keep team chemistry when the better guys are benched. Isn't that supposedly the whole argument made for why : somehow lost the team? You can't have both - players hate : because he plays worse players AND somehow that the better strategy would be to play the worse players and lose.
    Maybe instead of using lotto picks on 24 year old 15 minute role players, who were ready now. We could have taken some 19-20 year old high upside prospects?

    To be a franchise builder you have to have vision. You need to see past today.

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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    No, it means playing without your best players on the court when they are fully capable of playing.

    Again, the argument that the young guys are better than the guys : was playing is NOT THE SAME ARGUMENT.

    I maintain you cannot keep fans nor can you keep team chemistry when the better guys are benched. Isn't that supposedly the whole argument made for why : somehow lost the team? You can't have both - players hate : because he plays worse players AND somehow that the better strategy would be to play the worse players and lose.
    All this makes sense... unless you're on a 3 year plan to do nothing but let large contracts expire... and you're losing anyway. Casual fans don't care if you lose 30 games or 18 games. You're still a loser. And NBA aficionados understand what you're doing and enjoy watching the player development and speculating about the college stud you'll be able to draft in the first few picks of the draft.

    And nobody said you don't play the 'better' players at all... you just expand the rotation and shave some minutes off their PT. And you keep the hook under the bench and don't yank an inexperienced player for a mistake or two.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Larry doesn't have anyone to trade, but Granger. After the JO trade, there was literally nothing else that could be done, except wait it out.

    I understand what you are saying but there have been other GM's who had nothing to work with that have made trades. Chris M./GS, probably about as inept GM as there has ever been, unloaded 2 albatross contracts off on Walsh/Bird, so it can be done. Then Jackson and Harrington took GS to the playoffs that year knocking off Dallas. Neither Walsh nor Bird has been able to unload either Murphy or Dunleavy nor get the Pacers in the playoffs with Murphy or Dunleavy.

    This off season Kahn unloaded Al Jefferson's contract, BC unloaded Turk's contract, Riley unloaded Maggette's contract. It can be done even when your hands are tied with little to work with.


    For those that think it was all Walsh b4 Bird took over.

    Conrad Brunner article of 9/28/07. Quote from his Bird interview.

    Bird: "I've been involved in this for four years, and I'm not saying I sat back when all this other stuff happened because I was involved."

    Straight from the horse's mouth that he was involved in the decision making. It wasn't just all Walsh while Walsh was in the FO.

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  28. #71
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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by aaronb View Post
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    Maybe instead of using lotto picks on 24 year old 15 minute role players, who were ready now. We could have taken some 19-20 year old high upside prospects?

    To be a franchise builder you have to have vision. You need to see past today.
    Are you seeing past today? Because it looks as if you're writing off Roy, Brandon, Tyler, and AJ all as "15 minute role players" who will never be more than that.

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  30. #72
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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    I'm not playing that game. For example, everyone and their mother knows that Larry was the one who got rid of Isiah. But no, there's always the conspiracy theory that Donnie knew that he needed to get rid of Isiah, and he used Larry as cover. Wait until after Jermaine re-signed, and then get rid of him. Regardless of the fact that he'd already let Isiah hire new assistants.

    I can throw out that a week after Rick's hired, Larry fires half the scouts and brings in his friend Joe Ash to run things. But no, I'm sure Donnie wanted to get rid of guys who were to blame for all those horrible drafts we had in the '90's.

    And then, after working on the bench for 25 years, David Craig was abruptly kicked upstairs and the entire medical staff was redone. I'm sure that had just been on Donnie's list of things to do, right in the middle of training camp.

    It's just a coincidence that the entire organization was turned upside down within three months of Larry coming back. Nothing to see here. And surely everything that happened over the next five years, nah, Larry can't be held responsible for any of that, either.

    Look, if I had notarized documentation of everything Larry Bird did, people would just say they were forgeries. Why should we possibly believe that Larry did what he was hired to do, run the basketball operations of Pacers Sports and Entertainment while Donnie took a step back and focused on the business side of things. It's so much easier to look the other way and believe Donnie was the evil puppet master, orchestrating every move, and Larry just went along with it.

    Look, in no way am I saying that Donnie doesn't deserve serious blame. "The buck stops here", to quote Truman. But does that mean we shouldn't hold MacArthur responsible for mistakes he made in Korea? Or should we say maybe they weren't his mistakes, he was just following orders.
    For not playing the game, you sure got a pretty good list going.

    My question is this. Did Isiah need to go or not? I think most would agree yes. You're denying the theory that Donnie brought in Bird to do it.

    Why, is my question. You really think someone that's been in power as long as Donnie had been would just hire someone and then let them have free reign on whatever decisions they want? Seriously?

    Quite frankly, I think Donnie viewed RC as a better candidate and greenlighted it because they knew they could get Rick in town.

    Either way, your theor or mine, WE STILL DON'T KNOW THE TRUTH. You could be right, or I could be right, or it could be something completely different.

    THATS THE FREAKING PROBLEM.

    And really about David Craig? Kicked up stairs? Most would label that a promotion.


    And besides, just because changes were brought in right after Larry was hired doesn't mean Donnie didn't okay them before they happened. That's a HUGE point that your just either ignoring or assuming didn't happen. How do you know that Donnie didn't see these changes as upgrades as well, but the idea just started with Larry? You're making the case like Donnie hired Larry, and then just said "Get to work" and let him do whatever the hell he pleased.

    Donnie made the final decisions. He's said it. Larry's said it. The Simons have said it. There's no way around it.

    EDIT: About the promotion of David Craig

    “David Craig has been a Hall of Fame trainer here for 35 years. He has earned the right to come to the front office and be involved in other areas of the franchise. He will prove to be as invaluable in this position as he was as a trainer.”
    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/craig_050620.html

    Yes, I would definately call that a promotion.
    Last edited by Since86; 07-28-2010 at 01:19 PM.

  31. #73
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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    That wasn't a promotion. What medically-trained athletic trainer that's been working with the team for 35 years wants to become a minor part of middle management?

    He was canned, but offered another position in the company so that it wouldn't look like he got fired.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Why would he stay on, because he won many MANY awards for training? He could have gotten a job anywhere he wanted. After being a trainer for the Pacers for 35 freaking years, why wouldn't you want to slow down?

    I would put my money he got tired of reading comments on here talking about how the training staff sucked because Foster came down with a case of the common cold.

  33. #75
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    Default Re: It took Walsh 8 years, so just maybe Bird deserves a little more time

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I tried to stay quiet, I really did...

    Donnie decided to go for (and stick with) talent because he needed to do something to get the team over the top. It failed because of the personnel involved, because of the Pacers' complete inexperience at dealing with wackos, and because of injuries which either destroyed potential or essentially crippled building blocks.

    It was the opposite of "Donnie Do-Nothing", but he gets no credit because it blew up in his face - which is why he never tried it before.


    Much to your shock and chagrin I am not only going to agree with you to a point but I will one up you in the support for Donnie in this case.

    Once things started to collapse Donnie did what any real good employer would do and he did what he always did when dealing with other issues (albiet nothing as bad as this), he stood by his players.

    He was very much used to dealing with men, men who would not stab him in the back or continue to do the idiotic things that may have brought them to this place.

    This also blew up in his face and IMO hurt the franchise as much as the issues themselves did. It made it look like the franchise was at best an enabler and at worst a soft supporter of the actions that were taken with what we have all come to call "the casual fan" in the Indianapolis market place.

    Make no mistake that is who they have to appeal to, right or wrong. It does not matter what some 19 year old in Oakland thinks of the team or the players it does not matter what any East Coast big city fan thinks of them, they don't buy the tickets.

    I think if he initially would have come out with some form of support statment with the first incident it would have been fine, but by the time we reached 3 or 4 & beyond the team should have started battoning down the hatches and not pretend that these guys were going to act like Reggie, Mark, Jalen, etc. Not the same caliber of person IMO.

    So to wrap up my rambling thought here, yes while I held Donnie accountable for everything until that last season when he moved up to the box, I do believe he was betrayed by players he tried to show loyalty to.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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