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The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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What happened to the Pacers Digest I used to know?

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  • What happened to the Pacers Digest I used to know?

    Originally posted by Sweabs
    What happened to the Pacers Digest I used to know?

    Pacers Digest began with a clear and simple philosophy – one that stood in clear opposition to the IndyStar message boards (i.e. RATS). After numerous unfair and unjust bannings, Hicks et al., began a new Pacers forum with the intention to create a more open, friendly, and just forum. They named it Pacers Digest.

    It is true, that such a place existed at one point in time...that was the real Pacers Digest. But today, the forum compares more closely to RATS as it seeks to emulate the very principles with which PD supposedly stood in opposition!

    Don’t let yourselves be fooled. PD is not the democratic, fair, open or just forum it would lead you to believe.

    It is run by one man and one man only. His power is absolute. His opinion is the only one that matters. And he derives a very real (and somewhat sick) pleasure from this power.

    With the exclusion of one individual, he has surrounded himself with other moderators/admins who will not question his power...who will not speak up against his rulings. And this is the way he likes it. His power has gone unchecked for far too long without anyone speaking up. Posters are dissuaded from speaking up, as they see a collective “group” of admins who seemingly all agree with Hicks’ temperamental decision-making. Such is not the case, however, as these same people are also discouraged from voicing a dissenting opinion.

    After all, it is Hicks’s board – and he has made that clear to everyone. He can do what he chooses as the PD CEO or PD FOUNDER. We are all supposed to be forever indebted to his graciousness for bestowing upon us the greatest NBA forum of all-time.

    Forget about the POSTERS...the COMMUNITY...YOU - who are the real people to make PD what it is. The only community that remains important to Hicks are an exclusive collective of people, whom he has either labelled as a fellow admin or deemed worthy of posting on “The Front Page”. These are the great basketball minds – or, in Hicks’s view, his tickets to something much grander. He realizes what he has in these people’s writings – and he will exploit them for the benefit of “his board” for every penny they’re worth. Even those who go so far as to design professionally made logos in their spare time are not given as much as a simple thank you. Everyone should just be thankful they have the privilege to partake in this medium that is PD, and read this “exclusive” group.

    But if you aren’t a part of this group, you’re not all that important to Hicks. Respected posters who have been part of the PD community since the RATS days are given the banhammer without any notice. Misinterpreted words deemed unacceptable by the ruler/CEO are worthy of an instant ban. Not even so much as a simple PM asking for further clarification – just a permanent ban...to a member of 6+ years. Dispensable.

    Rating too many threads with five stars? Banned. Dispensable. No questions asked – no discussion made – to a member of the community for 6+ years. Apparently those who only used thread rating as a tool to discourage others (i.e. handing out a 1-star) were deemed more appropriate by the CEO.

    Do not try to even make contact with the ruler once you have been banned. It is no use. He refuses to talk. You must “honor thy ban”. In fact, that is the message displayed as justification for your banning when you log into the page. After trying to contact Hicks through countless different mediums (facebook, PD, e-mail, etc.) – you will never receive a response. He just doesn’t care.

    If you somehow do get in contact with Hicks during your banning, be prepared to jump through numerous loop-holes...including quizzes that must be answered correctly in order for reinstatement. Some of the questions include “Do you think I’m racist? Yes/No?”; “Do you think you ****ed up tonight? Yes/No?”. I wish I could say I was making this up. They are nothing more than a fleeting attempt to display the Ruler’s absolute power at the expense of the helpless user’s dignity. It is truly sick and perverse.

    He just doesn’t care. And you’ll never receive this sort of treatment if you stick to basketball-related posts exceeding 15 paragraphs in length. The rest can be dispensed of; particularly those who contribute little to basketball discussion at all.

    ...Which is ironic given PD’s history.

    Today we see the closing of the counting thread. But back in the RATS days, many of the PD old-timers contributed to a thread that consisted of random thoughts. It was unrightfully closed by the unjust RATS admins, and this had many upset for good reason. This was just one of the many reasons for the beginnings of the real Pacers Digest – but it has spiralled out of control since then. Sadly, PD has become RATS...partaking in the exact same abuses of power that drove people away from RATS to begin with. People have been blinded from seeing this, as it was never meant to get to this point...and most certainly, one is to never question the decisions of the CEO.

    This post would never be allowed to surface on PD, as the tolerance for dissenting opinions is at an all-time high. But why is this? It is almost like a trip back in time, where one is not to question the absolute power of the monarchy. Haven’t we grown from this? Wasn’t PD’s foundation based in some type of thinking that allowed for the critical voice? It is CRUCIAL to hear these opinions, to always keep the ruler in check. But in the case of Hicks, it has gone unchecked for far too long. He cannot engage with the critical voice without being personally offended or seeing it as a personal attack – so he partakes in childish “silent treatments” and discourages people from speaking in such terms altogether.

    I hope that no one experiences a sudden ban without so much as a word from Hicks...or even an attempt on his part to engage in civil discussion. But such is the nature of the beast. You are likely not deemed worthy of “his community” (even if you’ve been around since the RATS days) – and for that, you’re dispensable. This post has not even begun to scratch the surface of the stories which cast Hicks under a real light, as it would take hours to compose such a thing. Those who have experienced the ban understand...and it is necessary to at least put the truth out into the open. Specific stories regarding Hicks “behind the scenes” would sound so farfetched to most, that many would not even believe them if they read the words for themselves. But this is, at least, some attempt to question what PD has become without getting into specifics. For some existing posters and admins, none of this will come as a surprise; but they realize they cannot express these opinions.

    “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress DISSENT, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” – Joseph Goebbels
    With my full support and many others
    Last edited by N8R; 07-23-2010, 01:37 PM.

  • #2
    Re: What happened to the Pacers Digest I used to know?

    I can't tell if this is supposed to be real, or satire...

    But hey, it's hilarious either way. Someone needs a bit of a life outside PD.

    I've been on PD since day 1. I consider this my basketball home. But if I were banned tomorrow, for no reason whatsoever, it'd sting for about 10 minutes, and I'd be on my way. I wouldn't come back here through side channels to nail myself to a cross.
    Last edited by Kstat; 07-23-2010, 01:39 PM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
    Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
    NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: What happened to the Pacers Digest I used to know?

      All of the comments in that post happened to Sweabs and they are the feelings of him. Just very much supported by myself. Hicks has grown into something else these days.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: What happened to the Pacers Digest I used to know?

        This is not the venue. Use PM's.
        Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
        Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
        Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
        Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
        And life itself, rushing over me
        Life itself, the wind in black elms,
        Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: What happened to the Pacers Digest I used to know?

          As I was undeleting or re-opening the other threads having to do with this incident, I decided to bring this one back as well, even though I have some serious issues with it's twisted and/or in some cases flat out untrue comments.

          I did so to make a point that despite claims to the contrary, I haven't been 'seduced by the dark side of the force', I'm not some evil tyrant who gets off on being oppressive, and it was not BS when it was said that these comments were being taken down to allow the situation to cool itself down. I said it and I meant it. The threads are all back now in case you missed them.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: What happened to the Pacers Digest I used to know?

            Originally posted by Kstat View Post
            I can't tell if this is supposed to be real, or satire...

            But hey, it's hilarious either way. Someone needs a bit of a life outside PD.

            I've been on PD since day 1. I consider this my basketball home. But if I were banned tomorrow, for no reason whatsoever, it'd sting for about 10 minutes, and I'd be on my way. I wouldn't come back here through side channels to nail myself to a cross.
            It is easy to say that, but when you have no communication it can be extremely frustrating.

            Like it or not PD is a community. Hell, I live far far away, and I feel I have many good friends on this site. I have not seen many of them face to face, and there is a good chance I never will (unless a video chat is set up for a forum party )

            It is easy enough to buy a domain name and get space, and you can find cheap (or free) hosting these days, so if you think you can do better I see nothing wrong with doing just that. I just hope we do not lose any long time posters, because I have previously stated I enjoy many of the posters who post here, even if I do not always agree with the.

            With that said I think it is time for everyone to move on and let bygones be bygones.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: What happened to the Pacers Digest I used to know?

              I got banned for 2 weeks last season for commenting on the Pacemates.

              here was my comment
              "Well I have to be honest. Regardless if it gets deleted or not.

              Only a few of them are actually good looking in my opinion. Half of them are not very skilled dancers especially when they flex their feet during a kick instead of pointing them. The red headed one is always a half step behind according to my girlfriend, which is the reason why she is in the last position of the formation. But they put on a good effort. I enjoy their routines. But part of me wishes we had the Miami Heat girls instead."

              Nothing negative towards their looks there. Saying that I only find a few of them attractive is not calling any of them ugly. Just an honest critique of their entertainment value to me. But I got 2 weeks for that, then got another 2 weeks for arguing and being disrespectful.

              It was only matter of time before this thing blew up and Napoleon met his Waterloo.

              It really is just a case of, I don't like what you are saying, and for that I left this forum for a long time and only recently just started lurking on there with anticipation of the draft.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: What happened to the Pacers Digest I used to know?

                So you posted it and got banned for it then, and re-posted it here, airing a matter that was until now private? Are you just testing or something?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: What happened to the Pacers Digest I used to know?

                  Originally posted by travmil View Post
                  So you posted it and got banned for it then, and re-posted it here, airing a matter that was until now private? Are you just testing or something?
                  Just sharing my experiences.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: What happened to the Pacers Digest I used to know?

                    I've never had a problem with the leadership team here, and I think the site is policed rather well (perhaps not strict enough in terms of how many "new" threads are created). However, it seems that there are some that disagree with this sentiment, and it upsets me that this is the case. I was wondering if a publicly-elected board might be a worthwhile idea. This wouldn't replace the current PD top brass, but would install an additional oversight body consisting of members voted on by the PD community at large. Just an underdeveloped thought.

                    This solution is, of course, based on the well-known fact that voting solves all problems in America.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: What happened to the Pacers Digest I used to know?

                      Just from being a lurker you can tell who is part of the "cool" clique and who is not.This doesnt really matter to me but i can see where some people get that impression..For example look when a certain poster makes some simple comment and all of their bffs come running to thank them for their post.

                      Like i said this doesnt matter to me whatsoever thats their decision to live their life that way, plus its only the internet where people would never act like that in real life but feel power hiding behind a computer screen

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: What happened to the Pacers Digest I used to know?

                        I wanted to make this public for y'all:

                        Thanks Hicks and all the admins for your hard and diligent work on PD. I've been warned a few times when I made some comments that were against the rules, but the rules are clearly stated and I made them in the heat of the moment or, in one case, in jest, which gotten taken seriously.

                        I came here from RATS because that messageboard became a hater fest and race-baiting was rampant.

                        To steal a line from Toby Keith and modify with editorial liberty:

                        I love this board.

                        I imagine PD to be a huge commitment and very time-consuming.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: What happened to the Pacers Digest I used to know?

                          I love this board, too, and I have never met anyone here at any time. I also frequently post opinions that few share, and have been known to question the opinions and observations of moderators and even Hicks himself on occasion and I have only had one post of somewhere around 2000 or so deleted (not sure how many I had prior to the server crash of summer 2009) which was a joke thread I started about Lebron officially being a Cav as of 8:45pm on the night of the "Decision" which, in retrospect, was a good decision by Hicks.

                          I have never felt any threat against my ability to post my opinions and observations regarding the franchise whether they have been derogatory or supportive, and whether they have pertained to the on the floor product, the coaching, the way that the franchise has treated season ticket holders, or regarding the CIB dealings where the taxpayers are partially funding the franchise for the next 3 years.

                          If anything, there seems to be a higher maturity level overall at this point as things have progressed, but also a higher level of cynicism for some posters as people seem to have more stressors in their own lives (I would guess) and are looking to vent some of that here.

                          So, while Pacers Digest may no longer be the Pacers Digest as it was originally envisioned by some who have posted here, I suspect that it is becoming a healthier board overall due to the leadership of Hicks, Gnome, Buck, Peck, etc. who have the courage to stand by their convictions and deliver consistent moderation and oversight as the board continues to gain prominence as a leading fan website for the Indiana Pacers despite having no affiliation with the franchise, and I want to thank them for their efforts.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: What happened to the Pacers Digest I used to know?

                            Hadn't seen this, which is why i'm bumping it, but if sweabs got banned, I disagree with that. He was one of the better posters on here. Is he posting on a different board now?

                            All that said, I don't know what the whole conflict is about, exactly. I'll say that all boards have their good and weak points.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: What happened to the Pacers Digest I used to know?

                              Originally posted by dal9 View Post
                              Is he posting on a different board now?
                              http://infullpursuit.com/

                              Not a Pacers board. He's using a different name....shouldn't take you long to figure it out if you go to the counting thread there.

                              I don't believe he's 'banned' here now, but is not a member. He was banned on and off for a bit. Feathers were ruffled.
                              Last edited by kester99; 10-11-2010, 01:00 AM.


                              [~]) ... Cheers! Go Pacers!

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