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Thread: Maybe its management's job to put up with Ron

  1. #1

    Default Maybe its management's job to put up with Ron

    I realize many will hate the very premise of the question and that it is difficult to talk about because we don't know the details. However, I think it has to be considered. Maybe babysitting is part of Larry and Donnie's job.

    If the player is capable of putting us in the elite teams of the league shouldn't Management just deal with Ron? It doesn't sound like Ron's issues are with his teammates. I don't see anyone calling him a cancer or questioning his work ethic. It just sounds like he is high maintance. Maybe answer isn't trading Ron but our GM's swallowing thier pride and putting up with his ****.

    Rodman won how many rings? Do you think Philly regrets not trading AI? Would Detriot have won this year without Sheed? Maybe this is another part of the GM's job in today's NBA.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  2. #2
    Member Harddrive7's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maybe its management's job to put up with Ron

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadian
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    I realize many will hate the very premise of the question and that it is difficult to talk about because we don't know the details. However, I think it has to be considered. Maybe babysitting is part of Larry and Donnie's job.

    If the player is capable of putting us in the elite teams of the league shouldn't Management just deal with Ron? It doesn't sound like Ron's issues are with his teammates. I don't see anyone calling him a cancer or questioning his work ethic. It just sounds like he is high maintance. Maybe answer isn't trading Ron but our GM's swallowing thier pride and putting up with his ****.

    Rodman won how many rings? Do you think Philly regrets not trading AI? Would Detriot have won this year without Sheed? Maybe this is another part of the GM's job in today's NBA.

    Let's say that you were the owner of a company that survived on strictly sales and you had this employee that totally seperated himself from all other employees. This guy was your top salesman, made you tons of money. The only problem was that he was a jerk to everyone else in the office. No one could stand him. Now they havent' threatened to quit but you knew they were miserable with him in the office because he was such a jerk.

    What do you do?


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    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maybe its management's job to put up with Ron

    Well, not to harp on Larry (though I do it so well ), but what you just described doesn't fit his personality at all. He's an introvert with a no-nonsense attitude. Those are two big strikes against being able to "handle" a troublemaker.
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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maybe its management's job to put up with Ron

    Even as an oldtimer, Ron would be a tough call. After witnessing his "apparent" improvement last year it puzzles me what's going on. If it is something that is disrupting the team or a lack of respect for the coaches - he's gotta go. If it's something that's manageable - he's gotta stay.

    I would spend a lot of time on this one though. There is no doubt in my mind Ron is the type of player that can get us to the top.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Maybe its management's job to put up with Ron

    Arcadian, I am one of the foremost Artest supporters.

    However, I think you are totally off base with your assessment of what management's responsibilities are regarding Ron.

    Management's only responsibility, in collaboration with the coach, is to decide what the limits are. In other words, how much disruption are they willing to absorb before it becomes "too much".

    Whatever that threshhold is, in the event it is passed, then I think they start pursing the best trade they can get for Ron.

    I can't say whether or not they have reached their limit or they simply see an unparallelled opportunity to improve the perimeter shooting of the team by acquiring Peja (since Peja wants to be traded).

    Regardless of the motive, Larry obviously knows that Bender isn't going to cut it; it's going to take Ron to have a chance of getting the trade done.

    But even being an Artest fan, I would never say it's management's job to just shut up and bear it.

    Everyone has a their own threshhold of tolerance that must be exceeded before some negative or punative action must be taken. Bird and Walsh are NOT marshmallows. They absolutely will not draw a new line in the sand.

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    Default Re: Maybe its management's job to put up with Ron

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    Well, not to harp on Larry (though I do it so well ), but what you just described doesn't fit his personality at all. He's an introvert with a no-nonsense attitude. Those are two big strikes against being able to "handle" a troublemaker.
    Exactly. And I can't recall too many "troublemakers" being on the Pacers, at least for long, during Donnie's tenure either.

    Rodman was weird, with the eccentricity and such, but I don't remember him as being a locker room problem or causing on-court disruptions.

    Rasheed seemed to change his attitude entirely when he got to Detroit. Artest hasn't ever caused major off-court problems [i.e., drugs, assault, abuse, etc.], but I think the problems he does cause, presuming they exist, are the ones that directly affect the Pacers as a basketball team. Not interacting acceptably with teammates and staff, trying to take over games by himself, and generally not listening to what people tell him.

    I've felt all along that from a purely basketball standpoint, I would never trade Ron. But I doubt that's the only standpoint.

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    Default Re: Maybe its management's job to put up with Ron

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan
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    First of all, babysitting is part of managments job.

    I wish my dad could read this post (he is currently in Baghdad) and reply to this, cause he could type a page, no joke.

    He is a top level manager for the government, and he said he spends 80-85% of his time babysitting. Anything from "he looks at me weird" to "my sister came out of the closet last week"

    Now with that said, how much are you willing to take. Like you said, we dont know all of what goes on behind the scenes. In the real world, even if you are the best, you can get fired, and will get fired, for stupid stuff, like missing meetings for some of the reasons "Artest" has, with the popular "migrane headache" excuse.

    I want to keep this short, but the bottom line is how much is managment willing to handle. Most managers dont mind it, esp. since a lot of them just have a lower level manager watch out for these "headache" persons, or players in our case.

    but you have to draw the line somewhere. And Rodman was crazy, but Artest has anger managment issues. I will be the first to say I LOVE him [as a player] and I would LOVE to get the ppurtunity to play on the same team as him. His desire to win is simply amazing and to die for. But if the other player are always looking over there shoulders afraid he might snap and not knowing how he will react, that is a problem.

    All right, sorry, this is kind of long, but I think it is safe to assume managment feels Ronnie has crossed that line.

    I really would like to get others feedback, esp. the older guys here. This is a interesting topic.
    VA, I understand your point. I just want to say there is a big difference in requried management style between the public sector and the private sector.

    As a manager in a very competitive consulting environment, we spend a certain % of our time babysitting. I think you always will when you're dealing with highly-motivated people - their drive to win/ be recognized/ etc. is the strongest part of their personality. Not necessarily as strong as a professional athlete, of course, but strong nonetheless.

    But if you're the boss, and you've got to spend all your time babysitting and not being the big-picture guy and running the company, you've got a problem. And in the private sector, if your employees are keeping you from reaching the company's potential (measured in size, profitabilty, or championships), that's where you draw the line.

    We don't know what DW's, LB's, and Rick's threshholds are, only they know. But DW has eighteen years of credibility in my book. If he says its "too much", then I believe him. We're not talking about management rookies like Ainge or the Paxson brothers.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
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    Default Re: Maybe its management's job to put up with Ron

    Management's job is to field the best team possible for what they're willing to spend and put butts in the seats.

    If they feel Ron helps them do that, he should stay. If not, he should go.

    IMO he should stay unless there's a whole lot more we don't know about. But it's not my call.
    [edit=50=1092072761][/edit]
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Maybe its management's job to put up with Ron

    Donnie and Larry are no BS kind of guys. Give them too much BS to deal with and they're not going to tolerate it for too long. It's as simple as that. Without going into detail, it's gone on for too long. The ECFs weren't necessarily the last straw, but they confirmed what they already knew: that Ron can't be trusted to keep his emotions in check, especially when it matters most. You can't always be left wondering when the wheels are going to come off. It becomes too much of a distraction.
    [edit=27=1092073913][/edit]

  10. #10

    Default Re: Maybe its management's job to put up with Ron

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section222
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    But if you're the boss, and you've got to spend all your time babysitting and not being the big-picture guy and running the company, you've got a problem.
    Well put, Jay.

  11. #11
    Burt_Reincarnated
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    Default Re: Maybe its management's job to put up with Ron

    If they trade Ron and this team struggles to win 50 games I expect larry bird to be fired. If they match their wins from last season or come close, I'll happily eat my words and make a larry bird avatar.

    It's gonna be bad though, the end of what could have been a pacers dynasty.

    After all, what is managments job? to win games and a championship. If that means putting up with players tudes, then so be it.

    Secondly, where is all this talk about Ron being a cancer, off court probs, and whatnot coming from? It seems like all rumors to me that everyone bought hook line and sinker. Maybe I could start some rumors about Tinsley being a cancer...

    I'd love to hear about this stuff with Ron if any of you guys are insiders or know more than just agreeing he is a headcase.
    [edit=488=1092073952][/edit]

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maybe its management's job to put up with Ron

    I think we need to remember what a tremendous job the team does in keeping things out of the media... and probably what willing accomplices our local media happens to be.

    Therefore, I think it is a safe assumption to figure there is way more to the Artest story than what we've read. Migraines, backaches, missed shootarounds, missed meetings, injuries, etc..... probably only scratch the surface.

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    Default Re: Maybe its management's job to put up with Ron

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerMan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snickers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    Well, not to harp on Larry (though I do it so well ), but what you just described doesn't fit his personality at all. He's an introvert with a no-nonsense attitude. Those are two big strikes against being able to "handle" a troublemaker.
    Exactly. And I can't recall too many "troublemakers" being on the Pacers, at least for long, during Donnie's tenure either.

    Rodman was weird, with the eccentricity and such, but I don't remember him as being a locker room problem or causing on-court disruptions.

    Rasheed seemed to change his attitude entirely when he got to Detroit. Artest hasn't ever caused major off-court problems [i.e., drugs, assault, abuse, etc.], but I think the problems he does cause, presuming they exist, are the ones that directly affect the Pacers as a basketball team. Not interacting acceptably with teammates and staff, trying to take over games by himself, and generally not listening to what people tell him.

    I've felt all along that from a purely basketball standpoint, I would never trade Ron. But I doubt that's the only standpoint.

    [/i]

    Ron went through his court ordered? anger counseling BECAUSE of an incident with his wife.
    Actually, I think it was just one of the mothers of one of his kids.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  14. #14

    Default Re: Maybe its management's job to put up with Ron

    I know at least Jay believes that Walsh wishes that he stuck with Chuck a little longer. How do we know that this isn't a mistake, too?

    I think that Kegboy makes a great point about Larry. Is he the kind of GM who can get the most out of hard cases? I believe that this is a must for GM's or at least thier coaches now a days. Can Larry or Rick turn out diamonds in the rough? Dumars can, Phil Jackson can, West can, Brown can...

    Finally if public and private managent is different could managing NBA players be different than any other kind of professional? A lot of these players come from poor childhoods they come with bagage which most other highly successful people do not have. Factor in, too, that these are kids we are talking about. Who wasn't immature at that age? I know I have matured since being 24.




    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  15. #15

    Default Re: Maybe its management's job to put up with Ron

    I have experience on this issue as a fan from riding the roller coaster for the last 8 years with Iverson. Ron and Iverson are similar players they both play through pain, they both play with high intensity and passion and leave everything on the court each game and they are both talented players. Also I don't think either one of them is a cancer.

    On the negative side they both create distractions off the court and on the court sometimes their passion gets the best of them and they try to do too much on the offensive end and hurt their teams by breaking plays or forcing bad shots.

    This past week with Iverson was a typical scenario we have dealt with for 8 years in Philly. He is unprofessional and shows up late for a meeting and gets suspended. Next he goes out and hits 2 crucial three pointers late in a game including the game winner.

    The question is do you trade a player who is a distraction off the court but who wins games on the court? If you decide to trade this player will you be able to get market value and a player with equal talent so that your team doesn't go in the tank? I'm sure the 76ers have shopped Iverson but haven't been able to get equal value in return over the years.

    Just from my outside perspective if the Pacers can acquire Peja for Ron I think you have to pull the trigger. Why? Because players like Ron and Iverson don't change dramatically off the court so it is always difficult to get equal value in return in a trade. Other teams aren't going to give up superstars for them because of their off the court reputations so as the years pass it gets more difficult to get equal value in a trade.

    If you can add an elite MVP caliber player like Peja for Ron you have to do the deal because if Ron continues to have off the court issues (that is a high probability) you'll never be able to land an elite player like Peja in the future for him.

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    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maybe its management's job to put up with Ron

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadian
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    I know at least Jay believes that Walsh wishes that he stuck with Chuck a little longer. How do we know that this isn't a mistake, too?
    I've wondered this many times. Yet, I believe that was what this past season was for... for Ron to prove to management that he's a keeper. The highly-visible incidents decreased (thank God), but there were still enough rumblings... the benching in the NJ game, the situation in the ECF, etc. that *could* lead an observer to say that maybe all isn't well behind-the-scenes.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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