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Thread: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

  1. #1

    Default Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    Saw this over on RATS. It's a comparison of the numbers between these two combos should a trade occur to bring Peja in for Artest.

    Jackson/Peja combined:

    42.3 pts
    10.9 reb.
    5.2 assists
    3.11 steals
    .454 FG% (1201/2647)
    .392 3pt% (385/981)
    .868 FT% (627/722)


    Harrington/Artest combined:

    31.6 pts
    11.7 reb.
    5.4 assists
    3.09 steals
    .440 FG% (889/2021)
    .301 3pt% (96/319)
    .729 FT% (504/691)


    Please note the huge disparity in 3-point shots and percentage.

    [edit=27=1091933029][/edit]

  2. #2

    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    It's too bad those statistics don't include the defensive prescence/etc. that Ron brings to the plate versus what Mr. Stojackovic does. I'd greatly be interested in seeing those.
    [edit=53=1091933331][/edit]

  3. #3
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    Jackson is no Artest, be he is a solid defender and in this team defense will do fine in Ron's place. He won't lock people down, but he certainly will not get embarrassed.

    As long as we have this coaching staff, team defense will never be a problem unless we trade the rest of our roster for the Bobcats or something.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    Hicks, I do share the view that the Pacers have one awesome coaching staff, but the players have to play the game, not them. The players do matter.

  5. #5
    canyoufeelit
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    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    Quote Originally Posted by MSA2CF
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    Hicks, I do share the view that the Pacers have one awesome coaching staff, but the players have to play the game, not them. The players do matter.
    Well we have this Jermaine O'Neal fella and I hear he's a pretty good defender too

  6. #6
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    OK, I'll use the Pistons as an example.

    Who guarded Billups last year? Tinsley and Johnson.

    Who will guard them now? Tinsley and Johnson

    Who guarded Hamilton (or tried) last year? Reggie mainly, Fred and Ron sparingly.

    Who now?

    Jackson mainly, Reggie sparingly.

    Rasheed? Foster, JO, Al, Croshere

    Now? Foster, JO, Croshere

    Ben? Uhh... not much intense guarding needed, but JO mainly.

    Now? Same.

    The only change is Tayshaun Prince. Their 4th option on offense. Oh wow, we're really f***ed when we have to switch from the DPOY to an average defender when it's the team's FOURTH OPTION. Woah is me!

    Relax.

    The people that do the scoring for Detroit are going to be guarded by essentially the same cast of characters.
    [edit=12=1091934719][/edit]

  7. #7
    canyoufeelit
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    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    Ben? Uhh... not much intense guarding needed, but JO mainly.
    No kidding. I discovered the secret to guarding Ben Wallace a long time ago, you can't give him wide open looks because he will knock it down, but if you put a hand in his face he will miss like 99% of the time

  8. #8
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    No offense Hicks, but I get really sick of the Detroit matchup argument. Detroit isn't going to be on the top of the mountain forever, and even if they were, you still have to beat other teams besides Detroit to win a championship.

    Remember when Artest was out in both of the Sacramento games, and we'd say we would have won if he'd been in there to guard Peja. Well, let's play that forward a bit.

    We make the trade. We beat Detroit in round 2 (thanks to the new seeding rules), and get past Miami in the ECF. And guess who's waiting for us in the Finals. Yep, you guessed it, Sacramento.

    Yep, the Kings were able to knock off the Shaq-less Lakers, and, after finally having a healthy team for once, beat the Spurs (or Wolves; I think they'd match up well with either.)

    So, then, we beat Detroit, but look at the matchups we face now:

    Tinsley vs. Bibby - I like Jamaal, but come on.
    Jackson vs. Christie - Christie's pretty athletic, even at his age. I'd bet he could keep up with Sax.
    Stojakovic vs. Artest - Uh, Peja's not a quick guard (i.e. Ron's weakness).
    O'Neal vs. Webber - Yeah, we know JO's better, but not prohibitively so.
    Foster vs. Miller - Jeff would do a good job on him, but Brad's still the better player.

    So, there you go. We got past Detroit, but that's a bad matchup, IMO.

    It comes down to this. Do you believe Detroit is a much better team than us, and we can't beat them, as is. Or, do you believe that we played them damn close with JO and Tinsley hurt, and Ron and Al playing like *****. With a healthy team that's had a baptism by the playoff fire (not to mention losing The Blackhole) I don't see any reason why we can't beat them as is.

    I'll say it again. You can't convince me we're a better team on the floor with Peja instead of Ron. Now, granted, if there are issues off the floor that necesitate getting rid of Ron, then hell yes, make this trade, cause you ain't getting a better deal. But it still hurts us.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    canyoufeelit, I didn't say Jermaine wasn't a good defensive player. He is.

    Hicks, I would respond to your post, but I'm too slow to understand it.

  10. #10
    Offical Thread Killer TheSauceMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    I'll say it again. You can't convince me we're a better team on the floor with Peja instead of Ron. Now, granted, if there are issues off the floor that necesitate getting rid of Ron, then hell yes, make this trade, cause you ain't getting a better deal. But it still hurts us.
    Great Post KegBoy , I didnt comment on the whole thing cause I agree with you pretty much word for word , but I just wanted to quote what I thought was really important in what you said , and I agree with that 100%


  11. #11
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    Kegoy, I don't honestly believe the Kings will make the Finals. Webber's not getting any healthier, and I belive the Spurs are the team to beat.

    And, guess what? Spurs are more like Detroit than Sacramento.

    Is Peja gonna get destroyed by Bruce Bowen? Didn't think so. Bowen will guard him well I'm sure, but Peja does have 4" on him ya know.

    Jackson will guard Ginobili just fine. Or at least you must admit Ron wouldn't do a BETTER job; because Manu is pretty quick/fast.

    I'll leave out the rest because it doesn't concern this trade.

    And my bottom line is still, it's not just about individual matchups, it's our team defense that made us good last year, not our individual defenders. We had an even better team of individual defenders under Isiah in 2003, but we were a mediocre team defense then.

    Team defense does not require a lot of great defenders, yet even without Ron we still have a handful of good defenders. Our team D will not sink very much, yet our O will get a big boost. And that's the most important thing to me. We can argue individual matchups for months on end, but in the end it's team vs team, and our team defense will be pretty good, and our team O will be at least pretty good, if not better.
    [edit=12=1091936697][/edit]

  12. #12

    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    I'll say it again. You can't convince me we're a better team on the floor with Peja instead of Ron. Now, granted, if there are issues off the floor that necesitate getting rid of Ron, then hell yes, make this trade, cause you ain't getting a better deal. But it still hurts us.
    Or helps us.

  13. #13
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    As for the percentages up top, there's not doubt that Sax/Peja are much better shooters. But, there are two factors that the statistics don't reflect. One, I'd bet Al and Ron's D is 10 points better, which negates the ppg difference. Two, Sax and Peja not only played in high-tempo run-and-gun offenses, but were the first option. We all know Peja's not gonna average nearly as much in Rick's offense. And Sax isn't going to average 18 as the third option, while Al could very well average 18 in Atlanta.
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  14. #14
    year of the black rainbow obnoxiousmodesty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    No player can replace Ron Artest. I don't think anyone is trying to state Ronnie is easily tossed aside. However, if DW/LB are adamant about trading Ronnie away, then we're not going to find any player better in return than Peja Stojakavic. No, Peja is not a defensive stalwart, nor is he known for defense at all. Yet, by all accounts Peja is quite servicable on defense, and can only improve under the tutelage of the Pacers' coaching staff.

    The Pacers defense is not going to fall apart if Ronnie is traded. Indiana will simply fall back upon their already strong team defense to carry the load. Yes, I believe Pacer opponents will have an easier time scoring if Ron is gone; nevertheless, I also believe the Pacers will have an easier time scoring if Peja is added. You do not require an elite defensive player to possess great team defense. Never mind that now, for if Ron goes, it will be because management has concluded his negative influence upon the team outweights the positives.

    I think the memory of the ECF is still burned into people's minds. We saw the Pacers fight back and forth against Detroit and come up short. Ron Artest helped the Pacers in several of those games with his defense. Ronnie also hurt the Pacers with his offense. I'm not condeming him based upon one playoff series. What I'm saying is that Ronnie is not the key to helping us defeat Detroit because to beat Detroit you must loosen up their defense. Now, can Ron Artest do that? I do not believe so. Offensively, Ronnie bullies his way into the paint and intimidates. You don't intimidate the Pistons, nor do you force your way to the basket. We watched him try again and again, the operate word being "try". In my opinion, Detroit is a huge hurdle on the way to a championship, and our current team as it stands will not clear that hurdle.

    I love Ronnie's game. I remember watching him play at St. John's. I believe he is a good man. He brings invaluable assets onto the court. Yet, for the reasons I listed, I will support this trade for Peja if it occurs.
    Take me out to the black, tell 'em I ain't coming back. Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.

  15. #15
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    You're forgetting about Barry, Hicks. I think he's a matchup nightmare if we don't have Ron.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    Take Ben Wallace out of Detroit. Is the team's defense still extremely intimidating? One player can make a huge difference to a team defense.

  17. #17
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    You're forgetting about Barry, Hicks. I think he's a matchup nightmare if we don't have Ron.
    Barry's a combo guard, not a SF. If he plays SF he's dwarfed no matter who we play their: Peja, Bender, Jackson.

  18. #18
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    Okay, for those of you that think the world begins and ends with Detroit, I've got another way of looking at this for you.

    Everybody says Ron played like crap against the Pistons, right? Well, did anybody ever think that wasn't just him going off his meds, but maybe Prince had something to do with it, too?

    At least Ron made Tayshaun work on the offensive end, and he beat on him at every opportunity. If we were to play Detroit again, Larry would tell Prince, "You've got one job. Stay on Peja like glue. Before the end of the game, I wanna know what flavor gum he's chewing." Do you think Prince couldn't do it, after we all saw the number he did on Kobe. And he'd have free-reign on the other end of the floor. From what I've read on the Sac board, Peja has grown into a serviceable defender, but he's still soft. He'd get beaten to a pulp against Detroit.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    Quote Originally Posted by MSA2CF
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    Take Ben Wallace out of Detroit. Is the team's defense still extremely intimidating? One player can make a huge difference to a team defense.
    Raindrops keep fallin' on my head
    But that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turnin' red
    Cryin's not for me
    'Cause I'm never gonna stop the rain by complainin'

    Because I'm free
    Nothin's worryin' me





  20. #20

    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    You're forgetting about Barry, Hicks. I think he's a matchup nightmare if we don't have Ron.
    I'd take my chances with freddie or jackson

  21. #21
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    Quote Originally Posted by bulletproof
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSA2CF
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    Take Ben Wallace out of Detroit. Is the team's defense still extremely intimidating? One player can make a huge difference to a team defense.
    Raindrops keep fallin' on my head
    But that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turnin' red
    Cryin's not for me
    'Cause I'm never gonna stop the rain by complainin'

    Because I'm free
    Nothin's worryin' me



    :
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  22. #22
    Burt_Reincarnated
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    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    the slight offensive comparisons which way in favor of SJ and Peja do not even come close IMO to the dominating presence and Deef Ron and AL would provide.

    Give me Ron and AL any time, anywhere, over SJ and Peja. Talk about whats good for the team as far as position goes. And I still say AL and Ron would be better for the club, you dont get rid of 2 dominating defensive forces for a outside shot...

    This offseason is driving me crazy...

  23. #23
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    Wait, now Al is a dominating defender?

  24. #24

    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    Look, one way or another Ron is going to be traded. And to get someone of equal value, we'd have to give up too much. Anyone else close to Ron's level makes $12 million or more. With Peja, it's straight up. It's really a no brainer. As obnoxiousmodesty said, we're not going to find a better player in return for Ron than Peja.

    So come on in, boys, the water's fine.



    [edit=27=1091938828][/edit]

  25. #25
    Burt_Reincarnated
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    Default Re: Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    Wait, now Al is a dominating defender?

    what? you Don't think AL is a dominating defender? So as soon as AL leaves the team he gets downgraded huh? Al is one of the best defenders in the league, you of all people I thought would know that Hicks.

    BAH

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