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Thread: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    I don't thin Rush has as much value as most of you think, because he is still a Pacer. Bird would have cashed in on that value already.
    graphic-er.... Who is a better basketball player? Brandon Rush or Gordon Hayward?

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I blame coaching, both strategy and roster management, for about 80% of the problem.
    I'd like to see Rush play under a different (normal?) coach/ system before we give up on him. Frankly, I think he's confused. He probably has never played in a system this dumb for a coach this stubborn. I think he knows what he should do, but in the process of unlearning it he's become too mechanical, tentative.
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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    I don't thin Rush has as much value as most of you think, because he is still a Pacer. Bird would have cashed in on that value already.
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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by lil lebowsky View Post
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    Not trying to be a hater here or anything, but honestly how good is Rush, defensively? I'm not arguing that defense is his best assest, but some on here act like he's NBA all Defensive team. I don't even remember in 3 years Rush playing a passing lane and stealing and going down the other end for a dunk; or Rush playing his own man on Defense and picking his pocket and going down for a dunk. The only thing that I notice is him maybe getting a hand in a face of a shooter or block shot here and there. Again, not trying to be a hater, but i think some over value him as a defender. I don't think that he is any better than Dahntay Jones as a defender on the Pacers. It would be different if he got points as a result of his defense but he doesn't. Not sure why everybody compares him to Bruce Bowen on here.
    I'm a little late to the discussion, but what I have highlighted is the main problem, IMHO.

    In order for it to be a good play, you've add in the stipulation that something offensively needs to happen, and that's not the case.

    While it makes for a longer highlight reel, and a more attractive on, measuring defensive plays on what happens offensively after them has zero merit.

    I would much rather have a player that plays good solid defense, and doesn't get beat by his man very often, to one that gets highlight steals for fastbreaks 2 times a night. I bet you that they gamble, and don't come up with the steal, more times than they do.

    Forcing a player into a contested shot, that misses and is rebounded is just as good as a defensive possession than one that results in a steal. It's just that the steal is flashier and catches more eyes. High amounts of steals, or blocks for that matter, aren't directly related to "good" defense.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    graphic-er.... Who is a better basketball player? Brandon Rush or Gordon Hayward?
    I'd say Rush is right now. Just because he has been in the league and played heavy minutes for 2 years. But I think Hayward will have more of an impact sooner than Rush.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I'm a little late to the discussion, but what I have highlighted is the main problem, IMHO.

    In order for it to be a good play, you've add in the stipulation that something offensively needs to happen, and that's not the case.

    While it makes for a longer highlight reel, and a more attractive on, measuring defensive plays on what happens offensively after them has zero merit.

    I would much rather have a player that plays good solid defense, and doesn't get beat by his man very often, to one that gets highlight steals for fastbreaks 2 times a night. I bet you that they gamble, and don't come up with the steal, more times than they do.

    Forcing a player into a contested shot, that misses and is rebounded is just as good as a defensive possession than one that results in a steal. It's just that the steal is flashier and catches more eyes. High amounts of steals, or blocks for that matter, aren't directly related to "good" defense.
    I completely agree. Steals and blocks are the last thing you want to look at when judging defense. A terrible defender can still average 2 steals per game if he takes enough chances, i.e. Allen Iverson. The problem with defense in basketball is that there is no easy way to judge it numerically. The only way you can judge it is by watching the player play defense. Being good at playing the lanes, or weak side shot blocker(especially when most of the time it is just blocked out of bounds giving the ball right back to the other team) doesn't make you a good defender only good at putting up stats.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by lil lebowsky View Post
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    Not trying to be a hater here or anything, but honestly how good is Rush, defensively?
    Pretty good. Not because he gets flashy dunks, but because the guy he guards usually misses the shot. Rush's 1-on-1 wing defense is on par with anybody else in the NBA, which is especially impressive because he's surrounded with poor defenders that he covers for.
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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    I'd like Rush a lot more if he showed any ability to get fouled or for that matter even hit his free throws. It's appalling that a guy who can shoot over 40% from the 3 point line has a FT% much closer to Dale Davis than Reggie Miller.

    That said, what he already does has value.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    I'm very pleased to see that many of you seem to have taken Rush's potential in a system that would suit him into consideration. I hope we get the opportunity to see him play under a real coach while he's still a Pacer. The right inside-out system running the inside through Hibbert and Granger (playing inside, not just shooting jumpers) would be a godsend to Rush. It would really open up Rush outside.

    Regarding Rush's D, I love watching him play. He isn't cheap and doesn't take unnecessary risks. I bet his opponents dread playing against him. The right coach could turn him into a defensive terror.

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    Post Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Brandon Rush defensive statistics:



    Source: http://network.yardbarker.com/nba/ar...pology/2858329

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by ryheathco View Post
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    Brandon Rush defensive statistics:



    Source: http://network.yardbarker.com/nba/ar...pology/2858329
    So Brandon Rush has the second-lowest overall points per possession, just above Ron Artest?

    Yeah, I'm sure the kid is overrated.
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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    It's appalling that a guy who can shoot over 40% from the 3 point line has a FT% much closer to Dale Davis than Reggie Miller.

    IIRC, it was Hal Greer who shot his FT as a jump shot and shot a good %. I can't imagine a player trying that now, but he shot them at higher % than Rush shoots FT.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    IIRC, it was Hal Greer who shot his FT as a jump shot and shot a good %. I can't imagine a player trying that now, but he shot them at higher % than Rush shoots FT.
    It's tough to shoot a decent percentage when you don't get to the line very often.

    That is my biggest concern with his game. He obviously needs to be more aggressive going to the hole. In the few games he really played well offensively, he was aggressive getting into the lane. He is capable of it based on his abilities, but he needs to learn be a bit more of a "slasher" in style than what he does currently. Our team could really benefit from him being a more aggressive offensive player and I don't think he is looking at it that way. He would help the team a lot more if he was more aggressive offensively. I do like his shot selection, just he needs to mix in a few more drives when he does get the ball.

    I think that is why our coaching staff needs to run plays for him early in the game and early in the shot clock. Get him going early and then let Granger slowly take over as the game goes along. I just think he needs to be put in a position to succeed. Worst case scenario with giving him the ball early would be that he passed it to illicit ball movement. The worst thing our team has dealt with in this offense is that there hasn't been the same ball movement since Dunleavy went down. I believe his early involvement in the shot clock was a good reason why. He was always one of the first two people getting passed to on the wing. Brandon does not fill that secondary role. I would change a lot of things about the way our team has been coached from my armchair, but it is not my place necessarily because they know so much more about the game than I do.

    Change is good.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    So Brandon Rush has the second-lowest overall points per possession, just above Ron Artest?

    Yeah, I'm sure the kid is overrated.
    No kidding. I am a huge Rush fan. I knew he was a good defensive player, but those stats are pretty awesome. He is in some elite company there.

    It's funny how so many people underrate Brandon, yet overrate Murphy.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    No kidding. I am a huge Rush fan. I knew he was a good defensive player, but those stats are pretty awesome. He is in some elite company there.
    Pacer fans with little or NO actual basketball experience will always under value good players or what may appear to the casual fan as an under-achieving player like Brandon. I couldn't believe all the whiners who called for Brandon to be traded this season. This kid can really play but he has a very passive personality and just needs a strong leader on the court to bring out his aggressiveness (which Lance Stephenson will provide). We've all seen Brandon play outstanding basketball when he gets it going and his defense has always been excellent as proven by the statistics provided by a poster. At worst, Brandon will make an excellent SIXTH MAN. Also, LB is acquiring more athletic players who can SHOOT the ball and play defense. This will only allow Brandon to play more aggressive knowing other athletic players have HIS back. Plus, we really don't know HOW he'll play in a more conventional OFFENSE that will be provided when JOB is finally done is INDY. I was really hoping that LB would get Bryon Scott to coach our guys but who knows what good coach will be available in the very near future!!! Go Pacers!!
    Last edited by TooBigNdaPaint; 07-17-2010 at 03:31 PM.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Scoring efficiencies: points made/minutes played for 2009 pacer team

    D.Jones 10.2/24.9=.41
    Rush 9.4/30.4=.31
    Dun 9.9/22.2=.45
    TJ 10.3/25.3=.41
    Granger 24.1/36.7=.66
    Head 7.6/17.3=.44
    S. jones 4/13=.31
    Murphy 14.6/32.6=.45
    Hibbert 11.7/25.1=.47
    McRob 4.3/12.5=.34
    Price 7.3/15.4=.47
    Foster 3.1/15.9=.19
    Hans 8.5/17.6=.48
    Watson 7.8/29.4=.27

    Only Watson and Foster put fewer points on the board per minutes played.
    Is this what we want from a SHOOTING guard? That's a high price for a SG.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    Scoring efficiencies: points made/minutes played for 2009 pacer team

    D.Jones 10.2/24.9=.41
    Rush 9.4/30.4=.31
    Dun 9.9/22.2=.45
    TJ 10.3/25.3=.41
    Granger 24.1/36.7=.66
    Head 7.6/17.3=.44
    S. jones 4/13=.31
    Murphy 14.6/32.6=.45
    Hibbert 11.7/25.1=.47
    McRob 4.3/12.5=.34
    Price 7.3/15.4=.47
    Foster 3.1/15.9=.19
    Hans 8.5/17.6=.48
    Watson 7.8/29.4=.27

    Only Watson and Foster put fewer points on the board per minutes played.
    Is this what we want from a SHOOTING guard? That's a high price for a SG.
    Maybe if our PF was under the basket trying to get offensive rebounds instead of gunning 3s Rush would have some shots available. Rush is the most accurate long-range shooter on the team. You also seem to be forgetting that basketball is supposed to be played on both sides of the court. Rush's offense may need work, but he's one of the few guys who contributes on both ends of the court. Put him in a system that ran the offense primarily through Hibbert and Granger (our best players) inside (and dump Murphy and JOB), and you'd see Rush's offensive production improve, as he'd have more open looks to score outside.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by TooBigNdaPaint View Post
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    Pacer fans with little or NO actual basketball experience will always under value good players or what may appear to the casual fan as an under-achieving player like Brandon. I couldn't believe all the whiners who called for Brandon to be traded this season. This kid can really play but he has a very passive personality and just needs a strong leader on the court to bring out his aggressiveness (which Lance Stephenson will provide). We've all seen Brandon play outstanding basketball when he gets it going and his defense has always been excellent as proven by the statistics provided by a poster. At worst, Brandon will make an excellent SIXTH MAN. Also, LB is acquiring more athletic players who can SHOOT the ball and play defense. This will only allow Brandon to play more aggressive knowing other athletic players have HIS back. Plus, we really don't know HOW he'll play in a more conventional OFFENSE that will be provided when JOB is finally done is INDY. I was really hoping that LB would get Bryon Scott to coach our guys but who knows what good coach will be available in the very near future!!! Go Pacers!!
    The thing that amazed me is that people seemed to want to trade off Rush because he wasn't already blossoming into a star by his SECOND season, and that's in a system that is a horrible fit for him.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyPacer View Post
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    Maybe if our PF was under the basket trying to get offensive rebounds instead of gunning 3s Rush would have some shots available. Rush is the most accurate long-range shooter on the team. You also seem to be forgetting that basketball is supposed to be played on both sides of the court. Rush's offense may need work, but he's one of the few guys who contributes on both ends of the court. Put him in a system that ran the offense primarily through Hibbert and Granger (our best players) inside (and dump Murphy and JOB), and you'd see Rush's offensive production improve, as he'd have more open looks to score outside.
    Dahntay plays some good defense and has a higher efficiency but doesn't get the minutes because he doesn't shoot the 3 but goes to the basket.

    Brandon can shoot the 3 but doesn't as much as he should. Brandon's efficiency numbers are due to his reluctance to play offense and is not the coach's fault.

    I am not certain what kinds of personnel changes would make Brandon's offensive numbers improve. why his numbers are at the bottom is unclear.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Rush does seem like he would be much more at home in a halfcourt system in a #4/5 scorer role.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    How's his defense?
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Pretty good. Not because he gets flashy dunks,
    Um....I think you are playing defense wrong.



    I went ahead and penciled in "blocks" for you given your history of not being mental.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    Scoring efficiencies: points made/minutes played for 2009 pacer team

    D.Jones 10.2/24.9=.41
    Rush 9.4/30.4=.31
    Dun 9.9/22.2=.45
    TJ 10.3/25.3=.41
    Granger 24.1/36.7=.66
    Head 7.6/17.3=.44
    S. jones 4/13=.31
    Murphy 14.6/32.6=.45
    Hibbert 11.7/25.1=.47
    McRob 4.3/12.5=.34
    Price 7.3/15.4=.47
    Foster 3.1/15.9=.19
    Hans 8.5/17.6=.48
    Watson 7.8/29.4=.27

    Only Watson and Foster put fewer points on the board per minutes played.
    Is this what we want from a SHOOTING guard? That's a high price for a SG.
    As long as his man is at the other end with a lower PPMin then I'm thrilled with it.

    Or better put since many teams use the SG as the main scorer, if his SG is putting up less efficient scoring than Danny Granger is for the Pacers, and Rush is outscoring Danny's man, then that's a win.


    Plus as many of us are saying (and have been for some time now), Rush is not a player who fits well with this system.


    Let's seriously ask the following question and answer it honestly -
    What would McKey or Dale look like in the JOB system? What would they do, would they get playing time?
    Would their good games be irrelevant? I ask this because we do know that their games were extremely valuable to a very successful roster for many years and for more than one coach.

    Rush is not a perfect player, but then he wasn't the #1-3 pick and won't be getting a giant 2nd contract to replace his rookie deal. He's going to have flaws and his main flaw is not being able to attack the rim off his own dribble.

    He plays great defense, he rebounds extremely well, and he shoots a killer 3 ball. Reggie rebounded at a much lower rate and was a sub-par defender who could draw fouls instead.

    Is it better for Reggie to score 31 while Steve Smith goes for 28 or for Rush to score 11 while his man goes for 12 on 15 shots with 4 TOs?

    What we need is a coach that can use Roy in the low post, Josh in the high post, Rush starting the play and then cutting off either post or stepping back to space. Let Granger do the same but with a bit more iso or dribble drives since he does draw fouls. Let Price or a PG of that style work the PnR action to get the bigs some points.

    You could easily see 4-5 good passes and lots of inside scoring at the end of it, and not just from Rush.


    Watching Vegas ball today I saw Mike Fratello chastise Vasquez for taking and early open 3, the kind of shot JOB insists on having players take. Mike's view was this - that was the best shot you could find, you couldn't try to work the ball for an even better look?

    It annoys me a little to have any of the current roster evaluated based on their performance in this system. Any system that has Granger taking 1.5-2 times as many 3PA PER GAME than Reggie Miller ever did has a problem.

    And Rush is nowhere the 1 on 1 player to overcome that. In fact the way JOB has presented the case for he, Josh and AJ (along with shot selection changes we've seen), avoiding the lane and shooting the 3 instead seems to be a matter of playing time survival.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 07-17-2010 at 06:42 PM.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Rush does seem like he would be much more at home in a halfcourt system in a #4/5 scorer role.
    I'd agree that he needs to be in a different system to excel.

    I looked up and thought I'd post some key strengths and weaknesses scouted prior to the 2008 Draft.

    http://www.nbadraft.net/players/brandon-rush

    Strengths:
    "Plays under control on offense, rarely ever forces the issue when the ball is in his hands, which has served the young Jayhawk team well as a steadying influence, evidenced by his 45% shooting mark. Gets good arc under his shot, shows a nice, fluid release. Excellent long-range shooter, shooting 43% from three his sophomore year, proving that his excellent shooting numbers from his freshmen campaign were no fluke. Excellent man defender, aided by his long arms and developed body. Defended the opposition's best player night in and night out; guarding Kevin Durant as well as anybody in their matchups. An excellent teammate who plays a solid all around game..."

    Weaknesses:
    "Left handed dribbling is suspect. For a player with his athletic talents, how rarely he gets to the basket is both surprising and alarming; brings about visions of former Jayhawk J.R. Giddens, and other players athletically gifted who seemed content to hoist up threes all game long. Some people question his competitiveness, claiming that he appears to coast in games that he should be dominating."

    This guy did a great job scouting him, although perhaps we'd like to see that "weakness" of hoisting up more 3s return? I think it would help him put more points on the board if Indiana focused more on getting Hibbert the ball inside and kicked it out to Rush when the paint got crowded. Rush's ballhandling is OK but not good enough to create offense on his own. He needs to be in a system that helps set him up. He's the guy you throw it to when your scorers get doubled. Then he'll go torture the guy the other team's best scorer for the next 24 seconds.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    How's his defense?

    Um....I think you are playing defense wrong.



    I went ahead and penciled in "blocks" for you given your history of not being mental.
    Nope, I meant dunks. You obviously didn't read the post to which I was replying.
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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    One more thing on the coaching - do you trade Dale, Reggie and Rik or do you swap Bob Hill for Larry Brown?

    Are we not possibly facing a similar choice now?

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