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Thread: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

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    Default The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    With the new SuperFriends in Miami, it got me thinking: players like Rush will see their value rise in the NBA, especially among Eastern Conference contenders. Teams are going to need to have solid perimeter defenders in the 6th/7th month role, and that is what Rush does. As I remember, he has defended Wade fairly well in the past. Just a little food for thought, wondering what other people think. Is there something to this or am I reading too much into the SuperFriends phenomenon? I'm not saying that these guys are going to be highly sought after commodities, but I think teams will be more interested in guys like him knowing they have to counter two monsters on the perimeter in Miami.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    I think teams are always looking for good defending wing players because wing players almost alwaysd lead the NBA in scoring, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Pierce, Durant, Carmello.

    So I don't think anything has changed, it has always been

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think teams are always looking for good defending wing players...
    And that is why I don't understand why everybody seems to be so indifferent about him possibly leaving Indy...
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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think teams are always looking for good defending wing players because wing players almost alwaysd lead the NBA in scoring, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Pierce, Durant, Carmello.

    So I don't think anything has changed, it has always been
    Yeah, but now, if you are a team with aspirations to actually beat the Heat in the playoffs, you are going to need to have more of these types of guys who can defend LeBron and Wade. That's why I was pretty surprised that the Celtics let Tony Allen walk--he's the type of guy you need to D up these guys.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    People are indifferent to him leaving because a lot of people think good play = offense, and Rush isn't necessarily bad offensively... just sometimes fades into the offensive shadows, therefore they think he's not a good player. He's very Derrick McKey-like, lol... who was a good player.

    FYI, I'm not in that crowd, I like Rush and think we need to keep him.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Not trying to be a hater here or anything, but honestly how good is Rush, defensively? I'm not arguing that defense is his best assest, but some on here act like he's NBA all Defensive team. I don't even remember in 3 years Rush playing a passing lane and stealing and going down the other end for a dunk; or Rush playing his own man on Defense and picking his pocket and going down for a dunk. The only thing that I notice is him maybe getting a hand in a face of a shooter or block shot here and there. Again, not trying to be a hater, but i think some over value him as a defender. I don't think that he is any better than Dahntay Jones as a defender on the Pacers. It would be different if he got points as a result of his defense but he doesn't. Not sure why everybody compares him to Bruce Bowen on here.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    I think he stays in front of his guy, contests shots, stops penetration. He doesn't gamble and it shows in the stats. He isn't an AI type defender in that he takes chances by overplaying the passing lanes for the steals. He's not a stats guy defender, but imo very good nonetheless.

    BRush has very quick feet, long long arms, he's a handful guarding the ball, in which I think he's best served to do.

    He's an inconsistent off the ball defender (he can get back doored watching the ball or get caught up in the wash) and a sporadic team defender (will see some weak side blocks, but hardly ever a charge).

    To me, he is a very, very good individual defender on the ball, not elite, but has elite ability, if he could channel it.

    He'll never lead the league in steals or blocks at his position, but he could be a guy other wings don't like to have guarding them.

    Defensive stats aka steals can be overated for backcourt positions, imo. Hence the AI example, he'd almost always go for the steal, but often lose his man in the process.

    How do you measure a guy making a player shoot an off balanced, second choice shot? Or a guy makes two moves and gives up the ball because he's defended well?

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by lil lebowsky View Post
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    Not trying to be a hater here or anything, but honestly how good is Rush, defensively? I'm not arguing that defense is his best assest, but some on here act like he's NBA all Defensive team. I don't even remember in 3 years Rush playing a passing lane and stealing and going down the other end for a dunk; or Rush playing his own man on Defense and picking his pocket and going down for a dunk. The only thing that I notice is him maybe getting a hand in a face of a shooter or block shot here and there. Again, not trying to be a hater, but i think some over value him as a defender. I don't think that he is any better than Dahntay Jones as a defender on the Pacers. It would be different if he got points as a result of his defense but he doesn't. Not sure why everybody compares him to Bruce Bowen on here.
    He is too busy manning up two different players on defense to play the passing lanes. Someone has to cover for you to take that risk. Rush is usually the one that is trying to pick up Troy or Dunleavy's man after getting blown by so that Hibbert doesn't pick up another silly foul. If that was the kind of defense he was playing, it would probably suit our team's lack of defense philosophy. I want Rush to have a hand in the face of every jump shot taken in front of him. I want him to use his length and athleticism to make that block. I want him to attempt to stay with Kobe and Wade. There was a thread that showed his defensive statistics against the best defenders in the game, and his numbers were on par or better than many of them. Don't underrate his defense because you don't prioritize just "getting a hand in a face of a shooter". Ask Battier about that kind of defense.

    Rush will do much better offensively for those of you with different basketball priorities. This season I think he will be a better scorer and better defender. He will get much better without Troy Murphy on the offensive end or he decides to take Troy's position in the post, but JOB doesn't want that.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    While I've been disappointed at times with Brandon's offensive game, I think that was more due to my pre-conceived notions about him not being met vs. him truly underperforming.

    Let's face it, he was pick #13 in a draft with picks around him having mixed careers to date. Certainly none of them have been world-beating?

    I continue to believe that he could be a mainstay on our team. I'd like the team to give him another full year of burn, and see if his offensive game became more well rounded.

    Worst case scenario, IMO, is that he gets signed to a 3-4m/year contract and is a reliable role player/6 man off the bench. Best case scenario, he turns into our third scoring option, in a front court centric offense that revolves around Hibbert, a new post player TBD, and Hansbrough... alongside Granger naturally.

    Now that some time has passed, I'm pleased with the trade we made with Portland. We traded Bayless and Diogu for Rush, McRoberts, and Jack? We couldn't have known what would happen in contract negotiations with Jack, so it'd be hard to argue that the trade wasn't favored in our direction.

    That's a lot of additional value for moving down two slots in that draft.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    I think he stays in front of his guy, contests shots, stops penetration. He doesn't gamble and it shows in the stats. He isn't an AI type defender in that he takes chances by overplaying the passing lanes for the steals. He's not a stats guy defender, but imo very good nonetheless.

    BRush has very quick feet, long long arms, he's a handful guarding the ball, in which I think he's best served to do.

    He's an inconsistent off the ball defender (he can get back doored watching the ball or get caught up in the wash) and a sporadic team defender (will see some weak side blocks, but hardly ever a charge).

    To me, he is a very, very good individual defender on the ball, not elite, but has elite ability, if he could channel it.

    He'll never lead the league in steals or blocks at his position, but he could be a guy other wings don't like to have guarding them.

    Defensive stats aka steals can be overated for backcourt positions, imo. Hence the AI example, he'd almost always go for the steal, but often lose his man in the process.

    How do you measure a guy making a player shoot an off balanced, second choice shot? Or a guy makes two moves and gives up the ball because he's defended well?
    x2

    Rush's defensive prowess is some of the most nonglamorous parts of the game.

    I'm not a big Rush fan—don't think he's clutch—but I do love his defense. I could be persuaded to become a fan. I'd like to see him under another coach.
    .

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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Eh, as far as trade value is concerned, a SG-only, good defender, allegedly good shooter who lacks confidence, cannot-create-his-shot guy... is not exactly a rare commodity.

    His career is still in limbo. He's a minus starter right now. If he starts firing and drilling those 18 plus shots, he'll get into solid territory, and a team like the Heat would love him.

    He's been really lucky to get as much run as this early in his career, his play hasn't earned it. If he doesn't step up, he'll be an ok defensive sub. Hope he's working hard this summer.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Info on similar player:

    Tony Allen to Memphis
    http://netdugout.com/boston/2010/07/...ye-tony-allen/


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    Really like Rush and his defense and his potential. Would love to see him more aggressive and confident in driving to the basket.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    No matter how high his value gets, whatever you do, do not compare him to Paul George.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by 31andonly View Post
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    And that is why I don't understand why everybody seems to be so indifferent about him possibly leaving Indy...
    It's not his defense that troubles me about him; it's his erratic offense.

    I guess I'm still looking backwards at this position, recalling the days of Reggie averaging 18 ppg over his career and expecting that at some point whomever assumes the mantle at SG will also become a decent scorer. But BRush has struggled so much. I sometimes have to step back from my expectations of him and remember he's a role player on this team, not a primary scoring option...3rd option at best. So, it's a struggle trying to keep his overall role on this team in perspective w/expectations.

    Still, as much as his offense frustrates me at times, he has never disappointed me with his defense.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    A guy who can defend like Rush and shoot 41% from three is an extremely valuable NBA commodity, any way you slice it.

    People can complain about his offense all they want, but you CANNOT leave a guy like that open on the perimeter. Rush came in after his early slump and shot 45% from three over the last half of the year, that is outstanding. Imagine if Jason Kapono was also an excellent defender, and then you will understand Rush's value. And this is all leaving out his Bball IQ, smart rebounding, post entry passes, etc...

    He is never going to be a go to scorer type, but if you have two A and B scoring options already, Rush is the perfect player to play between them.
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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by danman View Post
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    Eh, as far as trade value is concerned, a SG-only, good defender, allegedly good shooter who lacks confidence, cannot-create-his-shot guy... is not exactly a rare commodity.
    Wait a minute...

    Brandon has handles. I just sometimes think JOB relegates him to doing certain things and the kids just tends to hold back because he's worried about playing outside the offensive scheme.

    Like I said above, BRush is typically the 3rd scoring option at best behind Granger and maybe Hibbert or whomever is our PG of the moment. So, he's #3 at best and #4 at worst, and as that 3rd of 4th option his "role" is to take wide open perimeter shots and defend the other teams SG. However, I've seen BRush run baseline off the dribble a few times or drive open lanes to the basket just as I've seen him make cuts to the baseket w/o the ball to score. He can create for himself; he just doesn't do it often and I think the reason for that is because coach wants him to be a catch-n-shot Shooting Guard rather than play more like a Scoring Guard.

    His career is still in limbo. He's a minus starter right now. If he starts firing and drilling those 18 plus shots, he'll get into solid territory, and a team like the Heat would love him.

    He's been really lucky to get as much run as this early in his career, his play hasn't earned it. If he doesn't step up, he'll be an ok defensive sub. Hope he's working hard this summer.
    Again, it really depends on how he's utilitized. Reggie could drive to the basket but realized he was a better shooter than a creator off the dribble. BRush is just going to have to find what works best for him and JOB is gonna have to let him exploit that talent instead of trying to contain it, bottle it up, pigeon hole him into being so one-dimentional.

    That's my take anyway.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by lil lebowsky View Post
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    Not trying to be a hater here or anything, but honestly how good is Rush, defensively? I'm not arguing that defense is his best assest, but some on here act like he's NBA all Defensive team. I don't even remember in 3 years Rush playing a passing lane and stealing and going down the other end for a dunk; or Rush playing his own man on Defense and picking his pocket and going down for a dunk. The only thing that I notice is him maybe getting a hand in a face of a shooter or block shot here and there. Again, not trying to be a hater, but i think some over value him as a defender. I don't think that he is any better than Dahntay Jones as a defender on the Pacers. It would be different if he got points as a result of his defense but he doesn't. Not sure why everybody compares him to Bruce Bowen on here.
    http://ilevy.wordpress.com/2010/07/0...sh-an-apology/

    According to this post he's pretty good when compared with other players with good defensive reputations using Synergy analysis.

    The first thing that popped out at me was that he held his counterpart to a FG% under 40.0% in all seven possession categories tracked by Synergy.

    In this admittedly small sample size, Rush’s numbers compare quite favorably. His TO% is low in almost every category but his Points per Possession numbers and FG% allowed are quite impressive. In fact he was tied with Dwyane Wade for the second best overall Points Per Possession allowed. Another surprise was Ron Artest. For all the talk about him losing a step, it’s clear from these numbers that Ron Artest continues to be among the best, if not the best, perimeter defender in the game.
    Pretty colored graphs at the link full of data.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    http://ilevy.wordpress.com/2010/07/0...sh-an-apology/

    According to this post he's pretty good when compared with other players with good defensive reputations using Synergy analysis.



    Pretty colored graphs at the link full of data.
    Great name, great avatar!!

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    All i'm saying is if Dahntay Jones got the same amount of min's a game, i think his defense would be just as good. I'm not a Rush hater, but if he was traded today i wouldn't care one way or the other. His defense is his best asset, but that's really not saying much when you average under 10 pts a game, and shoot 62% from the charity stripe as a starting shooting guard in the league. If he shored up that percentage, and would be more consistent overall with his numbers I would like him a lil better.

    There have been a lot of great points about him on this thread, and I appreciate the logical banter. I just always sigh when i hear so many people praise him and his skill set when i see a completely different image.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Eh, at a certain point it's on the player. Brandon got 8 ppg with 24 minutes as a rook. He got a bit over 9 ppg with 30 minutes as a soph. 42 percent shooting each year.

    That's zero progress stat wise, and there's not much just watching him. He has improved his D.

    McKey started because he could defend 2 thru 4 and he was an elite team defender. He saved everybody's behind. Rush isn't at that level, he'll never be that versatile.

    Even as a roleplayer on offense, he needs to progress, or his starting days are numbered. He's got no floater or push shot on the drive, he's not dangerous off screens, he muffs too many layups, and he's mediocre on catch and shoot. His body language is tentative.

    I'm pulling for him, but he'd better develop or last year will be his career best in minutes.

    My optimism is low because guys with significant college experience usually make a leap in the 2nd season. Brandon did a tiny hop.
    Last edited by danman; 07-13-2010 at 12:51 PM.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think teams are always looking for good defending wing players because wing players almost alwaysd lead the NBA in scoring, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Pierce, Durant, Carmello.

    So I don't think anything has changed, it has always been
    My eyes lit up when I saw Paul moving like he can move on defense in the summer league.
    Quick, long and tenacious, we may be 2 deep in very good perimeter defenders.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    I think the dilemma here is that a player like Rush is not especially valuable to a bad team but very valuable to a good team. He's not going to help propel us to the playoffs, but provides some key defense and 3-pt-shooting that can swing tight playoff series. So, do we keep him in the hope that we become a good team and can play to his advantages, or do we move him because at this moment we need a lot more things that he cannot provide?

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by lil lebowsky View Post
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    All i'm saying is if Dahntay Jones got the same amount of min's a game, i think his defense would be just as good. I'm not a Rush hater, but if he was traded today i wouldn't care one way or the other. His defense is his best asset, but that's really not saying much when you average under 10 pts a game, and shoot 62% from the charity stripe as a starting shooting guard in the league. If he shored up that percentage, and would be more consistent overall with his numbers I would like him a lil better.

    There have been a lot of great points about him on this thread, and I appreciate the logical banter. I just always sigh when i hear so many people praise him and his skill set when i see a completely different image.
    Rush is okay on offense, not spectacular and not a player that you notice doing much... he has tons of room to grow on the offensive end and thats what still keeps him relevant as a prospect at being a good 2 in the NBA.

    If you look at his stats near the end of the year they increased... as far as free throws that 60% isn't as bad as it sounds although he needs to improve he only averages about 1 ft per game...

    If he can learn to be more aggressive on the offensive end and create his own shots... he will really be a good player in the future, which is the reason a lot of people want to keep him around.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    Quote Originally Posted by 31andonly View Post
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    And that is why I don't understand why everybody seems to be so indifferent about him possibly leaving Indy...
    Exactly. There are reasons to trade people, but being paid a lowish salary (rookie contract) and having a useful skill that you don't have a lot of on your roster are not those reasons.

    What are we trading for? Another good wing defender? No, probably a PG. So why not trade DJones for a PG instead of Rush since Rush can also hit the 3?

    My optimism is low because guys with significant college experience usually make a leap in the 2nd season. Brandon did a tiny hop.
    I blame coaching, both strategy and roster management, for about 80% of the problem. Roy, AJ, Rush and Josh would all be playing a much better and more interactive offense if they'd been getting more run, especially together, and were getting support for working through a high-low post (Josh-Roy opposite sides) with PnR, back screens, etc.

    Scoring efficiency and assists would go up, offensive rebounds would go up as you pressured closer to the rim, and Rush especially would be in his comfort zone of a more structured system that he could master.

    The JOB system promotes two things - 3 point shooting and one on one dribble attacks. Both IMO are lazy offense and certainly they waste the talents of more cerebral players. JOB can talk big about motion offense and offensive reads, but it's not like this is the first time that stuff has been missing in his career.

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    Default Re: The value of Brandon Rush (got higher)

    I don't thin Rush has as much value as most of you think, because he is still a Pacer. Bird would have cashed in on that value already.

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