Also I think that it makes things unnecessarily complicated.
Yep, I knew that if we didn't get the seer with btown, we were done. You can ask the rest of the wolves, my PM right after that night was titled "Well, we just lost"
Seer can't live past like three or four nights, by then he has either found one or possibly two wolves while also building up a human alliance that is equal to how big the wolves posse is.
What could be kind of fun and is a rule I've played before, is that once per game, the wolves can choose to "infect" a regular human rather than make a kill that night. Which makes their numbers stronger and also throws a wrench in voting strategies. The infected person becomes a wolf or recruited into the mafia whatever, and plays like that for the rest of the game.
The ability to infect or convert also somewhat limits the seers abilities while also not crippling them, now when Ms. PIggy had come out and said she had been contacted we could have "infected" her and learned the identity of the seer.
Reading about it on wikipedia, apparently the "angel" is typically not allowed to save the same person twice in a row. How's that for mitigating the seer's power instead of not allowing him to reveal himself?
Infection seems cool but also powerful. What is the con to infection? Why wouldn't a wolf do that every night? Can they infect the seer/angel? Would trying kill either the wolf or the seer?
You can only do it once per game TA, not every night. So you would have to save it. The goal with a wolf's infection would be to infect either a confirmed human or possibly the seer himself.
So once you use it though, it is gone to you, so it's kind of pointless to do it early in the game. Also, the angel role could protect someone from being infected just like dying, so if the angel protected you that night, the wolves would not be able to infect or kill you, and if the wolves use their infection (conversion, recruitment whatever) attempt on a night you are protected that counts as their one time use.
So it really would add another level of strategy to the game, mitigate the seer's power a little bit, and make it less likely that a confirmed human would out themselves in thread, as they would almost certainly be infected.
Last edited by Trader Joe; 07-02-2010 at 11:36 AM.
You're right - that was an original rule that has slipped through the cracks.
We'd had a situation where it became an issue before.
Good find on that rule - the not revealing still has to stand though, because I was enforcing that rule last time and the game was still ruined. The seer can come out and say "The following are wolves and not wolves:...." And they STILL have another night to find someone they think to be suspicious because the wolves can't get him that night.
I guess I'm just cautioning against making dramatic rule changes to give the wolves more power based on how the last game played out. That game was an aberration where the puzzle was solved via means not intended to be available. The wolves have plenty of power - how they use it is more important than their needing more.
I do agree with that btown.
I think adding the one infection though would kind of spice up the game, I guess it would be up to each GM, but it adds a different feel.
But how long does it take a seer to discover so many wolves? To find 3 wolves should take at least about 6 viewings. That's 12 dead people already! This rule gives the wolves ample time to try to find the seer. Let's put it this way: the wolves and the seer are in effect playing the same game, trying to hunt the other party down. However, there are more wolves, and the seer has to look through a larger sample (wolves + humans, vs. just humans). The wolves have a much, much better chance of finding the seer before he can find all the wolves.
Personally, I think the seer should be able to reveal himself whenever he wants, and the angel should not be able to protect anyone twice in a row. Those are standard rules, right?
The seer revealing has never been a standard rule here.
And I suppose it should take at least 6 viewings, but I tend to think that's if the game if being played in a vacuum. People are smart - and some of the forum members here know each other well enough that we can ascertain posting behaviors and patterns. The process of elimination makes it easier to pick out wolves than just guessing might.
If that's what people want to do, whatever. I'm just cautioning against it because I've seen it tried here before and it failed spectacularly.
In a vacuum, I think the number is probably more like 10 viewings (definitely don't remember how to do the math on this). Six I think is very generous -- this means wolves are being found at a 50% rate when they really number 25% or so.
It took me 5 turns to find 2 wolves and I felt very fortunate.
Last game was a good example of how the seer can remain hidden and eventually win the game for the humans. I am perfectly fine with how things played out.
What I am not in favor of is a rule to artificially restrict the seer's ability to communicate. I would much rather see a gameplay modification to balance things out. Especially when something as vague as "veiled hints" are allowed.
Again, if that's what people want, that's fine. The game's been run a dozen times around here just fine without that change with everyone's ability to communicate restricted by the same rules (albeit that rule only impacting [thanks Jay] certain players), but maybe it will help.
But there's no question last game played out differently because of the tools available on the forum. Once those are removed, it's entirely possible a game could play out in a very similar way - but many of the humans have themselves admitted that using such tools significantly guided and shaped their search and lists of possible candidates.
Yeah, I can certainly agree on that point. Looking at forum history is really not in the spirit of the game and needs to be abolished one way or another
Honestly, LA didn't hurt too much, he got one..someone who others were already suspecting, and he thought I was human for a long time.
What hurt was Ms. Piggy coming out and saying "these two are wolves" I don't know how that should be restricted or if it should be restricted. I would personally suggest that people can't reveal identities. And that in that situation you need to convince the rest of the group that those two are wolves instead of citing the seer. Because with the majority being human, once the seer finds a wolf, all they have to do is contact one of the known humans, and that human can say "wolf"..and meanwhile the wolves probably have to spend that night taking out that human instead of looking for the seer. With four wolves, people will take out themselves just to get a wolf.
I would think the seer outing himself could lead to his quick death. However, if btwon says it ruins the game. I suggest we don't do it. And like I said...keep the identities hidden, with hints but not outright references.
Last edited by Sookie; 07-02-2010 at 12:33 PM.
Looking at someone's profile has been the go to method for veteran players for a while now. I remember when i first started SiG told me that strategy and that was like 4 years ago so... If there is a way around it, like appearing offline, that'd help but it may not change the list of who has been viewing MY profile (as opposed to what I'm doing right now) So it might be able to hide how long or often we're PM'ing but not hide the fact that we've PM'd player X recently.
I don't want a bunch of drastic rule changes but I do like the clarifications we've made and I'd like to see something change with the seer/angel/wolf dynamic. Not a huge shift, just something to spice it up a bit... Like infection, OR the angel changing who they protect nightly, OR the seer being able to "come out", OR my Wild Card Role idea (with some work). I'd like one of these things but not more than one!
I love the idea of a one-time infection. I believe that would limit the seer's powers w/o having to construct a bunch of artificial rules. The seer can use a proxy if he dares, but a move like that becomes considerably more dangerous.
You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?
I assume that upon infection, the GM declares "Infection has occurred!" with no further details?
What if the wolves figure out who the seer/angel is, or if it were just blind luck. If I were a wolf, I would want to infect them. But changing anyone of those roles to a wolf would give a boost to the wolves, I doubt any humans could overcome.
I think the infection is simple and really spices up the game for the seer, wolves, and regular humans. It'd be kind of cool to suddenly have a special role halfway through the game.