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Thread: Understanding Brandon Rush

  1. #1
    crazy shinaniganz BringJackBack's Avatar
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    Default Understanding Brandon Rush

    Let me get started with saying that Brandon is not a star player. He will not bust out for 30 points on any given night. But in this league you have players that are winners and you have players that are not winners. Players such as Monta Ellis, Gilbert Arenas, Jermaine O'Neal, Antoine Walker, or even Allen Iverson are not going to accept shots being taken away for the good of the team. That was the reason that the Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Shaq, and Kobe Lakers ultimately couldn't win it all. However there are other players that are huge in sacrificing stats for their team and being unselfish to help their team win. Players such as Derek Fisher, Scottie Pippen, Tayshaun Prince, Bruce Bowen, and so on and so forth win alot of games and championships for a reason. Each championship team needs a guy or two like this to spread the "love" to their teammates and lead them in the right direction.

    You saw Ray Allen scold Nate Robinson and Big Baby for being obnoxious and getting overhyped. You always saw Bruce leading teams to victory and giving pointers to younger players in the NBA. You guys saw it with Mark Jackson.

    My point is, alot of you guys see Brandon as a player who doesn't care and shows no emotion, and is a zombie on the court because of his personality. I have a personality alot like his, and when I used to play in High School, I used to be like that whether I made a big play or did something very unintelligent. He doesn't like showing out when he does something good because he feels like he should be doing it all the time. He also doesn't think that showing out is smart. If a team like San Antonio or Boston picked him up, he'd be one of their most valuable pieces right away because while good shooting guards are a dime a dozen, winning players are not easy to come by. When he tweeted "Yeah someones getting shipped" what else is he lead to believe? Some people responded that he is an arrogant tool and thinks that he's the absolute ****, but he's not like that, if you read his tweets you'd know that he's just a man of few words, and that he gets toyed around with by his friends in Kansas. He just wants to win, and stats obviously don't matter to him.

    Now we have Paul George. If he turns out good, he'll take the starting spot over him. Brandon wouldn't be upset about that, because it is all about winning. What is wrong with having a low cost winning role player to back up your super shooting guard Paul George? He does what he does, and he just helps teams. He leads without using many words, just like Ray Allen, Michael Finley, and heck Earl Watson do.

    So, discuss. How expendable is he? How much are you open to dealing him?

    And I ask that I not be too criticized because this is my first post.

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  3. #2
    I'm on a MAC! graphic-er's Avatar
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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    Actually I bet Rush would get angry over getting benched in favor of George, you just wouldn't notice it. If you are a competitor, then it eats you alive to see somebody take your spot.

    I understand not faulting the guy for his personalty, but this is a team who had one of the most loud mouthed, rudest, trash talking SGs in the league for 18 years, so we have some preconceived notion as to what a great SG is. Right or Wrong thats just the way it is in Indiana.

    Now you talk about him being the type of player who sacrifices stats for winning, that doesn't hold water when the team is asking him to shoot more and have more of an impact on the game. So if that's the case then he isn't giving the team what the team needs right now.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    I'm caught with Brandon

    Either he doesn't know how to play with Ford (which stats suggest)
    Or he is simply not aggressive.

    Brandon plays great defense. And he can shoot the three.

    But offensively, he struggles to create his own shot. Perhaps, the difference in Rush was simply Jack/Watson/Price looked for him on the wing, more so than Ford did.

    I think working on a midrange game, and learning how to create his own shots (and FINISH) would do a lot in helping him.

    I don't think his personality is why "sometimes he shows up and sometimes he doesn't." He consistently plays good defense. When he gets good shots, he shoots them...when he doesn't he passes. It's not about "not being aggressive." He simply depends on other players to get him his shot. It's not a personality thing so much as a skillset thing.

    His personality is fine. God forbid a guy act classy and professional. he's just laid back and quiet. If he does his job well, that shouldn't be a problem.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    I am over Brandon. I can't for the life of me understand why someone with all the talent he has can't be more effective on a nightly basis. He just doesn't seem to have the fire inside. If he does he covers it up well. I don't think but on a hand full of times, have I seen him show any emotion at all. I like to see a little fire out of a player, show me you want it.

    All that being said, he is a good defender and can only get better there. I like his shot, I just can't figure out why he doesn't knock down more of them. I saw him put the ball on the floor and go to the rim a few more times this past season, but not enough.

    We need more scoring from him and he doesn't seem to be able to consistently do it. I know he has improved and I don't want it to sound like he sucks, but he needs to produce more offensively, period. His D has come a long way, I will give him that. But on the offensive side he needs to show a lot more.

    I think he is as good as gone, I think TPTB might have already decided it. They are just waiting for the right deal. I think he has had more than enough time to show us what he's got and for me, so far, it is not enough.
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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    Seems a bit premature to use the argument that he's a winning player, when he's yet to play on a winning team.

    Whoever wants to cite NCAA to me now can just go ahead and recall this is the NBA, and that couldn't matter less.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    On the offensive side of the ball he is kind of the anti-Daniels. Daniels was the master of creating his own shot, but couldn't hit an outside jumper if his life depended on it. While Rush can hit three's all day, but has trouble creating an outside shot.

    As far as personality goes I don't give a **** about it, and neither should anyone else. As well I highly doubt Reggie's personality has anything to do with people's perception of Rush and his personality. Really I think people see it as the reason he is inconsistent, so they want to blame it when in reality his inconsistency has more to do with his confidence than personality. When he shows his confidence he is just as good Granger, but when he isn't confident he has trouble on the offensive end. The only reason his personality would be a problem is for leadership, he wouldn't be good as a vocal leader, but more of a lead by example kind of guy which doesn't always translate well to others.

    I do think Rush would be mad if George started over him, it would probably push him to be better, but I think Rush would eventually accept it once he either realizes that George is just better than him or it is better for the team.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    Brandon was suppose to have his break out season last year after he had a great spring last year. Then this year came and he was back to the same old Rush. He show a ton of potential on some nights and then on other nights he looks like he is afraid to shoot or even touch the ball. His nights when he doesn't show up out weigh his nights when he does show up.
    I don't see him getting much better here. If he improves and becomes a solid starter for another team I will not be mad. In fact I will be happy for him. His time is up here. We need to trade him before he has no value at all.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    I said this on another thread, but the Brandon Rush you see is the Brandon Rush you get IMO. He will be 25 before the start of next season. There are a few guys who have gone on to make drastic strides and become better after the age of 25 (David West, Manu Ginobli, Steve Nash). That said, the majority of players, whether good, average bad etc. are who they are by the age of 25.

    Brandon, as well as others, could improve on aspects such as court awareness, positioning, etc. But as with most players, at age 25 you are what you are. I highly doubt Rush will ever make big strides and become a remarkably better player. His defense will keep him in the league for some years, but his offensive ability is a liability most of the time.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    I said this on another thread, but the Brandon Rush you see is the Brandon Rush you get IMO. He will be 25 before the start of next season. There are a few guys who have gone on to make drastic strides and become better after the age of 25 (David West, Manu Ginobli, Steve Nash). That said, the majority of players, whether good, average bad etc. are who they are by the age of 25.

    Brandon, as well as others, could improve on aspects such as court awareness, positioning, etc. But as with most players, at age 25 you are what you are. I highly doubt Rush will ever make big strides and become a remarkably better player. His defense will keep him in the league for some years, but his offensive ability is a liability most of the time.
    Skill wise I agree, but that isn't Rush's biggest problem. He has the skills to be a good starter, he just doesn't have the confidence. Confidence is something that can change.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    I said this on another thread, but the Brandon Rush you see is the Brandon Rush you get IMO. He will be 25 before the start of next season. There are a few guys who have gone on to make drastic strides and become better after the age of 25 (David West, Manu Ginobli, Steve Nash). That said, the majority of players, whether good, average bad etc. are who they are by the age of 25.

    Brandon, as well as others, could improve on aspects such as court awareness, positioning, etc. But as with most players, at age 25 you are what you are. I highly doubt Rush will ever make big strides and become a remarkably better player. His defense will keep him in the league for some years, but his offensive ability is a liability most of the time.
    I don't think Brandon has to improve or make drastic strides, he just needs to fit into the system a little better. He doesn't have to become a lot better, I don't expect him to be the next jordon. Everyone wants to trade him and say he no good, we all complain about this team's poor defense and for some reason everyone wants to trade who i think is our best defense player. I just don't understand.
    Good is the enemy of Great


    We're changing the identity of our basketball team -- dramatically. We're a power post team -- a blood-and-guts, old-school, smash-mouth team that plays with size, strength, speed and athleticism. We attack the basket. . . . This is the new identity of our team. It was a great effort. I'm very proud of our guys."
    -- Frank Vogel.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    Brandon was a good starter.
    He played good Defense (on the opposing team's best player..and on a team that lacks defense)

    And makes his shots when he's open.

    You going to tell me that Bruce Bowen wasn't a good starter?

    What he hasn't been is a star. A Robin to Granger's batman. It really should say enough that Pop is interested in him. And heck, if Pop gets a hold of him, we'll all be kicking ourselves.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    Again, for the Rush apologists he will be 25. If he isn't "confident" or hasn't "got it" by now when will he? People don't make these revelations in their careers on the down side of 25. It just doesn't ever happen.

    And by the way, the Bowen comparison isn't good. Bowen was much smarter player and a ton better on defense than Rush is. I like Rush's defense, but he is not in Bowen's league.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Actually I bet Rush would get angry over getting benched in favor of George, you just wouldn't notice it. If you are a competitor, then it eats you alive to see somebody take your spot.

    I understand not faulting the guy for his personalty, but this is a team who had one of the most loud mouthed, rudest, trash talking SGs in the league for 18 years, so we have some preconceived notion as to what a great SG is. Right or Wrong thats just the way it is in Indiana.

    Now you talk about him being the type of player who sacrifices stats for winning, that doesn't hold water when the team is asking him to shoot more and have more of an impact on the game. So if that's the case then he isn't giving the team what the team needs right now.
    love the Reggie Miller reference. BOOM BABY!! I may be in ther minority, but i think trading rush will be a mistake.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    Again, for the Rush apologists he will be 25. If he isn't "confident" or hasn't "got it" by now when will he? People don't make these revelations in their careers on the down side of 25. It just doesn't ever happen.

    And by the way, the Bowen comparison isn't good. Bowen was much smarter player and a ton better on defense than Rush is. I like Rush's defense, but he is not in Bowen's league.
    Bowen also wasn't drafted and didn't crack the NBA until he was 25.

    I think he improved drastically from that point on.

    Bowen wasn't born good. In fact, he didn't "get it" until he was around 30.

    /shrug

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
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    Bowen also wasn't drafted and didn't crack the NBA until he was 25.

    I think he improved drastically from that point on.

    Bowen wasn't born good. In fact, he didn't "get it" until he was around 30.

    /shrug
    True, but for every Bruce Bowen there are probably thousands of players who had similar skill sets at around age 25 and never improved. He is definitely an unusual case.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    Quote Originally Posted by dcpacersfan View Post
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    True, but for every Bruce Bowen there are probably thousands of players who had similar skill sets at around age 25 and never improved. He is definitely an unusual case.
    you also see more players entering the NBA at an older age and winning. See players like Parker, Moon, etc.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
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    Bowen also wasn't drafted and didn't crack the NBA until he was 25.

    I think he improved drastically from that point on.

    Bowen wasn't born good. In fact, he didn't "get it" until he was around 30.

    /shrug
    Ahh yes, lets based these decisions on exceptions to the rule instead of the rule itself. What is really so hard to hear about that?

    Reggie Miller- good before 25
    Tim Duncan- good before 25
    Keyon Clark- bad before 25
    Darko Milicic- Bad before 25
    Paul Pierce- good before 25

    For every Bruce Bowen, Steve Nash, Manu Ginobli, and guys like that there are 25 guys who fit the rule. If you want to believe Brandon is going to be one of the guys who is an exception, great, I hope you are right and I am wrong. The stats, logic and percentages do not back you up at all.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    You know you keep saying 25, but you aren't looking at the whole picture. First off you are really just comparing the best from the worst, extremes don't make for a good comparison, I'm willing to bet that if you look at role players they are just as likely to figure it out when they are 29 as they are when they are 25. Also I think how many seasons in the NBA has more to do with it than age. If you look at every player you will most likely see a pattern that those who are in the league longer than 5 years made a big jump in their 3rd year in the league, and those who didn't didn't last for very long. This is a rule that most other sports have accepted, which is why it is fairly common to see 4 year rookie contracts.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    Ahh yes, lets based these decisions on exceptions to the rule instead of the rule itself. What is really so hard to hear about that?

    Reggie Miller- good before 25
    Tim Duncan- good before 25
    Keyon Clark- bad before 25
    Darko Milicic- Bad before 25
    Paul Pierce- good before 25

    For every Bruce Bowen, Steve Nash, Manu Ginobli, and guys like that there are 25 guys who fit the rule. If you want to believe Brandon is going to be one of the guys who is an exception, great, I hope you are right and I am wrong. The stats, logic and percentages do not back you up at all.
    Yeah, but then by your logic if we expect everyone to play by the percentages and play by stats and logic there wouldn't be a need for them because everything goes by the numbers. Those numbers aren't right 100% of the time, if they are, then there would be no statistical outliers, anomalies, or exceptions to the rule.

    So yeah, you can throw you numbers at me and say they don't support me, etc.

    But that doesn't make the position any more feasible than it did before. And the numbers are better than you make it out to be when you claim that there isn't time left for Rush to improve.

    And the numbers and players you keep on using are the players that were early bloomers who showed who they are by the time they are 25. From all evidence gathered for Rush (slow starter, doesn't play well till the 2nd half of the season), then there is reason to suspect that Rush isn't your typical player.

    For instance, McDyess and A.Miller are players who don't really work out that much in the offseason, that is true 6-8 seasons ago and that is true now.
    But as the season goes on, Dyess and Miller get better and they play better, and be really good near the tail end.

    So what if he has that kind of trait in him and that's also evident in his career path as well? What if he needs a while to have it click and allow players like Parker, Bowen, etc to become good, solid players at a later age because they just get better and learn to use their body/tools/etc?

    I'm not saying that this is what is going to happen or such, but given what Brandon has shown us, it could be very probable.

    Is it as probable as him become a bust and never figuring it out? Probably not, as the data that you refer to suggest that he will probably be bad.

    But is there a likely probability that is certainly more than what you are suggesting via the tone and style of your posts?

    Yes.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    I just want to add Hansbrough is going to be 25 in Nov. Does that mean he has reached his limit?

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I just want to add Hansbrough is going to be 25 in Nov. Does that mean he has reached his limit?
    ...no
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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    Quote Originally Posted by dcpacersfan View Post
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    True, but for every Bruce Bowen there are probably thousands of players who had similar skill sets at around age 25 and never improved. He is definitely an unusual case.
    If everyone understood this, there would be half as many posts on this board.

    The rare exception to the rule is not the rule.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I just want to add Hansbrough is going to be 25 in Nov. Does that mean he has reached his limit?
    Outstanding piece of info. That is excellent. lets compare a guy who has what, 20 career games under his belt to a guy who has been in the league for two full years. Great comparison.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    I don't see why some people want to wait on him , the Pacers are in a situation where if they don't bring attendance up which also means win more games in the next few years. they would likely not be in Indiana anymore. If you can trade rush for instant help then do it. if we were a top NBA team who wasn't losing money and isn't considering moving the team (according to Indy Star via David morway) I would love to keep rush.

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    Default Re: Understanding Brandon Rush

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    If everyone understood this, there would be half as many posts on this board.

    The rare exception to the rule is not the rule.
    If we don't discuss and look and see why there are exceptions to the rule then well there are no exceptions to the rule then are there? Especially if all we are going to do is play the game by the odds and assume everyone pans out by the rules. Then the draft would be soooo easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    Outstanding piece of info. That is excellent. lets compare a guy who has what, 20 career games under his belt to a guy who has been in the league for two full years. Great comparison.
    And yet, he will break into the rule of players not getting better after 25, if the people say he will turn out the way he turns outs. And his age SHOULD count against him, not for him, regardless of how many games he played. If we are going strictly with your rules, then that counts.

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