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Thread: Darren Collison

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    Default Darren Collison

    been reading on espn/realgm threads from hornets fans stating what they would want in exchange for Collison. is the below too much for the pacers to take back in a deal?

    the overall consensus from hornet fans is they want to get under the cap to sign an MLE FA. many of their fans said this would be a good trade for their team.

    Collison, Okafor, Posey, Songalia (24 million)

    for

    Murphy, Ford, Solo (20 million)
    or
    Dun, Ford, Solo (19 million)

    as a pacers fan if this was agreed to by NO's I would encourage Bird to accept. We do not have to give up Rush (not much interest in him from NO's) or a draft pick.

    I do not see either team getting a better deal than the one listed above. For indy we get a good young pg, solid pf even though he is overpaid, its balanced out by Collison's reasonable contract. Posey has 2 years remaining at 6.5 million and can backup Granger, and is likely tradeable next season. Songalia has one year remaining at 5 million and is tradable this season with our other expirings, and if not we let him walk.

    our lineup would be something as follows:

    pg: Collison, Price
    sg: Rush, George, Jones
    sf: Granger, Posey
    pf: Okafor, Hansbrough, McBob
    c: Hibbert, Songalia, Rolle

    Dunleavy or Murph would stay, and likely Foster (which im okay with, i like foster, and hope he retires a pacer).

    is this too much for indy too take back? i ask b/c it seems most hornets fans would be willing to agree with this exchange of players.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    I am not sure when all the contracts end but wouldn't this mean it would be really hard to resign Hibbert, Rush and Collision?

    IMO the proposed line up gets you into the playoffs but not very deep into the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    Yes, it's too much, sorry. Asking us to take on Okafor or Posey and Songalia is pretty much what could be expected, but asking Indy to take on all three (!!!) for Collison is rather brutal.

    I get that we are not sending draftpicks or Rush, but NO would have to take back something else from us if they want to dump all that crap on us, a non-expiring, to lower our salarystructure atleast a little bit. That doesn't leave many options. Jones comes to mind.
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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    i also wanted to mention, giving up draft picks and young players is not a good option for a team in a small market. we need to cherish draft picks and young players b/c free agents are not likely to want to play here. i know this may seem like alot to pay for one player we want in Collison, but Okafor has value has well. Songalia can walk after next season, and Posey the following.

    with Dun/Foster/ Songalia set to expire we would still have 21 million in exprings next offseason. depending on the new CBA agreement we should still be able to avoid the LT, and I think Foster can be resigned for around 2 million a season.

    this would make our team competitive at every position and we could then hopefully attact a better coach to fit the players we have here.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    I could see us taking back Okafor or Posey but not both.

    Okafor has 4 years left

    Posey has 2 years

    Songalia is an expiring so I don't really se why he needs to be included....

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I am not sure when all the contracts end but wouldn't this mean it would be really hard to resign Hibbert, Rush and Collision?

    IMO the proposed line up gets you into the playoffs but not very deep into the playoffs.

    Exactly, no reason to take on all these multi year contracts for one guy on our wish list, I can see taking on Okafor, but to take on Posey and Songalia is just stupid. I'd rather give them a draft pick.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    What is this, the 4th thread about Collison? 5th?

    Let me save some time, here are the conclusions that all Collison threads inevitably reach:

    - If we could get Collison without taking back Okafor's contract or giving up Danny/Roy, we do it.
    - NO has no reason to trade Collison unless they use him to move Okafor's contract.
    - There's almost zero chance Bird is willing to take back Okafor's contract.

    I'm a little shocked at how much mileage this unlikely-to-occur trade is receiving on here.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I am not sure when all the contracts end but wouldn't this mean it would be really hard to resign Hibbert, Rush and Collision?

    IMO the proposed line up gets you into the playoffs but not very deep into the playoffs.
    Posey has two years remaining at 6.5
    Songalia has one year remaining at 5
    Okafor 4 years at 11 million and escalates
    Collison 3 at 1.5

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by CooperManning View Post
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    What is this, the 4th thread about Collison? 5th?

    Let me save some time, here are the conclusions that all Collison threads inevitably reach:

    - If we could get Collison without taking back Okafor's contract or giving up Danny/Roy, we do it.
    - NO has no reason to trade Collison unless they use him to move Okafor's contract.
    - There's almost zero chance Bird is willing to take back Okafor's contract.

    I'm a little shocked at how much mileage this unlikely-to-occur trade is receiving on here.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by CooperManning View Post
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    What is this, the 4th thread about Collison? 5th?

    Let me save some time, here are the conclusions that all Collison threads inevitably reach:

    - If we could get Collison without taking back Okafor's contract or giving up Danny/Roy, we do it.
    - NO has no reason to trade Collison unless they use him to move Okafor's contract.
    - There's almost zero chance Bird is willing to take back Okafor's contract.

    I'm a little shocked at how much mileage this unlikely-to-occur trade is receiving on here.
    it may be, im not counting, but ive also done my research on this and invested some time in getting hornets fans opinons on this. if your not interested in the thread im not forcing you to read it.

    your above logic is already taken into consideration, your taking up my time by mentioning what i already am aware of. however, i think bird would consider taking back okafors contract so we disagree there.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    Yes, it's too much, sorry. Asking us to take on Okafor or Posey and Songalia is pretty much what could be expected, but asking Indy to take on all three (!!!) for Collison is rather brutal.

    I get that we are not sending draftpicks or Rush, but NO would have to take back something else from us if they want to dump all that crap on us, a non-expiring, to lower our salarystructure atleast a little bit. That doesn't leave many options. Jones comes to mind.
    actually, how is it junk?? songalia is a player hornets fans want to move and he expires this season, so were trading expirings for another expiring and he is a servaciable big man. posey is the worst contract of the bunch at 2 years remaining and has some value backing up Granger. he would also be moveable next offseason.

    Okafor/Collison combined is 12 million.. so thats an average of 6 mill per player.

    indy is not going to get a better deal than this for a young pg, and on top of things not have to give up draft picks or brandon rush.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by esabyrn333 View Post
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    I could see us taking back Okafor or Posey but not both.

    Okafor has 4 years left

    Posey has 2 years

    Songalia is an expiring so I don't really se why he needs to be included....
    i asked their fans the same question, they want to sign an MLE FA. Posey is the only bad contract in my opinion.

    FANS ON HERE WOULD RATHER TRADE DRAFT PICKS OR RUSH INSTEAD OF TAKE BACK OKAFOR?? im not sure i agree with that, esp the draft picks.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    been reading on espn/realgm threads from hornets fans stating what they would want in exchange for Collison. is the below too much for the pacers to take back in a deal?

    the overall consensus from hornet fans is they want to get under the cap to sign an MLE FA. many of their fans said this would be a good trade for their team.

    Collison, Okafor, Posey, Songalia (24 million)

    for

    Murphy, Ford, Solo (20 million)
    or
    Dun, Ford, Solo (19 million)
    the pacers are probably right up against the luxury tax this season, so taking back an additional $5-6m in salary this season would cost the pacers over $10m including luxury tax penalties. that's on top of okafor's contract, which will handicap us for years to come. the financials seem very unlikely to me.

    in fact, we're probably looking to be on the opposite side of such a trade, i.e. sending out some $24m in salary and only getting back $20m or so. i'll bet the pacers would want to get an mle free agent too.
    Last edited by wintermute; 06-29-2010 at 12:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    If we sign all of our draft picks, we are $0.9 million over the luxury tax line. If we take on an extra $4 million in salary, that puts us about $5 million over. In other words, this proposed trade costs us $8 million dollars this year. There's absolutely no way Simon would sign off on it.

    I think the sticking point in all Collison deals is that we're not willing to give the Hornets what they want - immediate cap relief - so there's not going to be any trade.

    I'm still betting that Collison ends up in New York when they get only Joe Johnson in free agency. Then you'll see a deal like Collison and Posey for a 2nd round pick.
    Last edited by OakMoses; 06-29-2010 at 12:24 PM.
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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    the pacers are probably right up against the luxury tax this season, so taking back an additional $5-6m in salary this season would cost the pacers over $10m including luxury tax penalties. that's on top of okafor's contract, which will handicap us for years to come. the financials seem very unlikely to me.

    in fact, we're probably looking to be on the opposite side of such a trade, i.e. sending out some $24m in salary and only getting back $20m or so.
    the LT does not kill us this season like it will next. and next year we would have around 21 million off the books.

    im sure we are looking for that kinda move, thats why it will nvr happen. if you want a team thats going to be competitive this is the move that will make it happen NOW!

    so lets just sit on the expirings, or get some backup pg and watch the team stink again next year, then when we have cap space we can all say WOOOOO!!! then what..... were not landing any FA's that are gonna come here and play. this deal gets us in the 50 win range and does not kill our cap next offseason.

    GIVE ME A BETTER OPTION THAN THIS TO MAKE THIS TEAM COMPETITIVE. and waiting for cap room to clear is not gonna guarantee competitiveness. sorry for the caps but i think pacer fans need to realize this is a win now type of move that does not hurt us long term.

    Okafor is overpaid about 4 million. but considering Collison's deal i think it averages out.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    If we sign all of our draft picks, we are $0.9 million over the luxury tax line. If we take on an extra $4 million in salary, that puts us about $5 million over. In other words, this proposed trade costs us $8 million dollars this year. There's absolutely no way Simon would sign off on it.

    I think the sticking point in all Collison deals is that we're not willing to give the Hornets what they want - immediate cap relief - so there's not going to be any trade.

    I'm still betting that Collison ends up in New York when they get only Joe Johnson in free agency. Then you'll see a deal like Collison and Posey for a 2nd round pick.
    all right pacer fans, well until that happens lets enjoy pi$$ing and moaning about our time winning another 30 games this season and missing out on a chance to get a top 3 pick when we make our usual run towards the end of the year.

    oh boy.. cant wait till next years draft.

    in regard to 8 million,, i bet this deal puts 8 million back in the seats, and next year is when the LT really kicks in. by then were 21 million under.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    Since you value the opinions of Hornets fans, what do you think of their thoughts on Okafor/his ability to play PF?

    http://www.hornetsreport.com/HRForum...ad.php?t=60562

    Some quotes from fans like us:

    "Okafor's main position was never PF. He simply can't play the position especially in today's league where a pick and pop stretch four is vital. He also isn't anywhere near athletic and quick enough to defend 4s. His ideal situation would be one with a long 4 that plays on the perimeter and allows him to clean up in an offense that doesn't utilize the screen and roll very much."

    "Okafor to me would be terrible at PF. Like has been stated here he has no offensive ability at all. Most of the great PFs in the NBA have a decent mid range jumper these days, and I don't see Okafor going out to defend that."

    "Okafor would be a terrible PF. He has no offensive game, and limited athleticism."

    Do you REALLY think Bird is going to pay:

    '10-'11: $11,540,375
    '11-'12: $12,541,812
    '12-'13: $13,543,250
    '13-'14: $14,544,687

    to a guy that doesn't solve our problem at PF? Bird has talked our ears off about cap flexibility and I suppose after years of writing eight digit checks to Murphy and Dunleavy, I can't blame him. Look, I'd love to have Collison as much as the next guy, but paying a very average PF/C tweener $50+ mil on top of Posey and Songalia is going OVERBOARD.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    I think Okafor's contract while costly is something the Pacers would be willing to take on to get Darren Collison. As I've stated before Okafor's strong points are Hibbert's weak points- rebounding, defense and shot blocking.

    Even with all kinds of cap space after next season what free agents in the 2011 class fill our needs at pf and pg as Okafor and Collison would?

    A simple Murphy and Dahntay Jones for Okafor and Collison trade works salary wise. In addition by trading Jones you remove 2.5, 2.7, and 2.9 mil from the Pacers cap each of the next 3 years to partially off set the Okafor contract.

    Jones to me is expendable with the addition of George and probably Stephenson.

    The Pacers would still have Foster, Dunleavy ,Ford, S. Jones and Tinsley's contracts coming off after the season totaling 31.6 million. With Okafor, George, Collison and Stephenson added to the payroll they would stand at around 38 mil in contracts entering next summers free agency period. That would still leave them 12-15 mil to go after a free agent they might want.

    Remember too Brandon Rush's 2011-12 contract is a team option if he continues to be an enigma or Paul George proves to be better Rush could be traded or even let go. Rush will be due at least 4.1 mil in 2012-13.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    the LT does not kill us this season like it will next. and next year we would have around 21 million off the books.
    that's not correct. doing the deal you suggested will kill us this season.

    look, you're a fan of collison. there's plenty of others though who don't think that highly of him. we only have so many trade assets, to me it doesn't make sense to sabotage our upcoming financial position (which is probably going to become our #1 trade asset) for someone who might not be more than a good backup.

    as melli says, collison might end up going for free to an under the cap team like new york. next year, the pacers will be the under the cap team, with all sorts of possible lopsided trades in our favor. it's been a long slog, but the end is in sight.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by diamonddave00 View Post
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    I think Okafor's contract while costly is something the Pacers would be willing to take on to get Darren Collison. As I've stated before Okafor's strong points are Hibbert's weak points- rebounding, defense and shot blocking.
    Hibbert got more blocks in less minutes than Okafor last year:



    And pretty much every Hornets fan disagrees with you about defense being one of Okafor's strong points.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    good post and thanks for the link. i checked out okafors stats. i tried posting them but that didnt work from espn. in summary, okafor averages 10 boards a game, 13 pts, shoots 50%, 2 blocks a game and is durable. yes he is overpaid. but he reminds me of dale davis who also played the power forward position when this team was elite.

    most of the hornets fans were criticizing okafors ability to shoot/score. teams he has been on Bobcats (awful), Hornets (other than Paul are awful) he was needed to score. with Collison, Granger, Rush (if he ever gets a jumper), George (reaches potential) we will not need him to score, just do the dirty work. Hibbert is not Smits but he may become a low post scorer, not the 15 ft jumpshooter smits was but a scorer in some capacity.

    i dont put that much merit into what hornet fans are saying, has okafor ever played next to a 7 footer.

    the one thing i did read is can okafor defend power forwards. Dirk is an anomoly. but Garnett, Jefferson, Bosh (not a jump shooter), Gasol, Boozer, and most other pf's in this game still try to overpower you down low.

    okafor no doubt is overpaid, but were not selling the farm on this one, and i believe it would give us a team that wins 50 games.

    again, realistically is there a better trade that is going to be available. if Collison truly does have the ability to be an all-star than you make a deal like this or very similar.




    Quote Originally Posted by CooperManning View Post
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    Since you value the opinions of Hornets fans, what do you think of their thoughts on Okafor/his ability to play PF?

    http://www.hornetsreport.com/HRForum...ad.php?t=60562

    Some quotes from fans like us:

    "Okafor's main position was never PF. He simply can't play the position especially in today's league where a pick and pop stretch four is vital. He also isn't anywhere near athletic and quick enough to defend 4s. His ideal situation would be one with a long 4 that plays on the perimeter and allows him to clean up in an offense that doesn't utilize the screen and roll very much."

    "Okafor to me would be terrible at PF. Like has been stated here he has no offensive ability at all. Most of the great PFs in the NBA have a decent mid range jumper these days, and I don't see Okafor going out to defend that."

    "Okafor would be a terrible PF. He has no offensive game, and limited athleticism."

    Do you REALLY think Bird is going to pay:

    '10-'11: $11,540,375
    '11-'12: $12,541,812
    '12-'13: $13,543,250
    '13-'14: $14,544,687

    to a guy that doesn't solve our problem at PF? Bird has talked our ears off about cap flexibility and I suppose after years of writing eight digit checks to Murphy and Dunleavy, I can't blame him. Look, I'd love to have Collison as much as the next guy, but paying a very average PF/C tweener $50+ mil on top of Posey and Songalia is going OVERBOARD.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    that's not correct. doing the deal you suggested will kill us this season.

    look, you're a fan of collison. there's plenty of others though who don't think that highly of him. we only have so many trade assets, to me it doesn't make sense to sabotage our upcoming financial position (which is probably going to become our #1 trade asset) for someone who might not be more than a good backup.

    as melli says, collison might end up going for free to an under the cap team like new york. next year, the pacers will be the under the cap team, with all sorts of possible lopsided trades in our favor. it's been a long slog, but the end is in sight.
    actually im not overly high on collison, but from what is available he is our best option. it comes down to the kind of potential that Collison has. some ive read believe he can be an all-star, im not drinking that kool aid just yet w/o a full body of work.

    and yes, this is alot to take back but again, is there a better deal, now or next year that is feasible. or more specifically, a better pg. if collison truly is a point guard with all-star potential then pacers have to make this deal.

    im not sure if i read this correctly, are you stating you believe DC is a backup point guard?? im not rebuttling your comment, just wanting you to clarify.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    I would prefer getting Posey, but I know that NO is looking to move Okafor contract in any deal. I want Collison bad, he showed he can lead a team and do it well. And for a rookie to do that says something. I am sure we will find out soon enough.

    Also how many different post are we going to do for Collison? It is too bad we can't merge or group them into a parent thread.
    Last edited by odeez; 06-29-2010 at 03:17 PM.
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    Default Re: Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by CooperManning View Post
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    Hibbert got more blocks in less minutes than Okafor last year:



    And pretty much every Hornets fan disagrees with you about defense being one of Okafor's strong points.
    is Okafor a power forward or center, thats the question i would like answered and im not asking hornets fans. he is 6'10 250. i say he is a power forward. if he is gaurding centers those stats could be misleading thats all im saying.

    against a team like the lakers, Okafor/ Hibbert vs Gasol/Bynum this is the kind of frontline you need to win. if they bring in Odom, we match with Hansbrough.

    IM SICK OF LOSING. if collison is as good as advertised, this is a 50 win team that is very young. how long are we going to wait before Grangers prime is over.

  32. #25

    Default Re: Darren Collison

    Can anyone clarify (looking at you, count) when the luxury tax is effected? Do we have to be under by the beginning of the season? Or could we make some deals during the season to escape the threshold?

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