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Thread: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by SMosley21 View Post
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    It really isn't asking that much for that 2nd rounder to do. Be above average defensively and chip in 5-10 points a night. Sure Brandon had some solid scoring nights, but he had just as many nights with less than 10 points (including a handful of games that he didn't score at all) as he did nights with 10 or more. It wouldn't be at all out of the realm of possibility that we could find a guy at #40 that could fill his role on the team. I could easily see a guy like Quincy Pondexter,Devin Ebanks or Lance Stephenson filling that role if they fall to #40.

    This is being said with me actually being a pretty big supporter of Rush.
    Someone did a search on that basketball website comparing Rush's defense with the best defenders in the NBA. Rush was
    right there with them in close to every category and even ahead in some. Rush is on his way to becoming an elite defender, you don't find that in the second round often. Also, if we had a coach who knew how to use him, he could easily be averaging 16 ppg with that defense.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Really, some people think Price is anywhere close to Collison? Come on now...

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by spreedom View Post
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    Really, some people think Price is anywhere close to Collison? Come on now...
    That position isn't that Price is also a future all star, its that people are overrating the crap out of Collison.

    Collison did an outstanding job stepping in for Paul. But as I pointed out, his numbers were worse than AJ's, when they were getting the same amount of time. And I also pointed out, he was placed into a system that completely revolved around him. As I said, he did a good job, but I think it's very possible that if he was to be placed on a different team, he'd look a little more like TJ Ford and a little less like Chris Paul.

    But regardless, despite the fact that I feel that a LOT of the PGs drafted were about the same level of player (Lawson, Collison, Price, Flynn although Flynn struggled at times, he did have more pressure on him than the other three.) They were in college, and when given around the same time in the Pros they were then too. (Not saying they aren't completely different players, all with their own flaws and all bringing something difference. IE Price is a lot less athletic than the other three, but he's also a smarter player than the other three.) I feel that all four will top somewhere between Fringe starter and solid starter. But my opinion here can be argued with. But that hasn't been the point of my posts.

    My whole point, is that, we haven't seen what level AJ is at as a starter. So yea, Collison got lucky (at Paul's expense) and got 40 MPG, and got to be in a system completely revolving around him, and he did produce. The point though, is the Pacers need to be careful. Not to rush into getting a new PG at the expense of the #10 pick and Rush. And losing our "best" expiring. And taking on Okafor's contract if we aren't sure we want him. And if I'm right (and there really isn't anything to prove otherwise) and Price and Collison are about equal, then we'd end up losing one of the two as well.

    So don't rush into it. Collison's value isn't going to get any higher. It'll either get lower, or he won't be for sale (and Paul will.) See what we have first, so that we know what we need. We have no idea how our young pieces would be by themselves ( as in, without with Ford or Murphy or Jimmy) How they fit together, and where their potential is. We need to figure that out.

    Now, if NO was saying "we'll give you Collison and Okafor for TJ and Dun" basically to expirings, and not giving up any younger pieces..basically them trying to dumb Okafor's contract. Than do it in a heart beat. My point is to be a bit more cautionary, because if the Pacer's are too reckless, they have the potential to look REALLY dumb.
    Last edited by Sookie; 06-19-2010 at 05:12 PM.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    There's no guarantee Collison will be any better than Price will be. Anyone who thinks he brings a "pass first" mentality, is off. And particularly in this system. Yes, we've seen Collison put up All Star numbers for a month when Paul was out. But when he got the same amount of minutes as AJ, his numbers were worse than AJ's. Collison was also placed into a system completely geared towards the PG.

    But regardless, the asking price for Collison is likely
    10th pick + Expiring + Okafor and perhaps Rush.

    Then add in the fact that if Collison and Price end up being relatively close to equal, odds are we couldn't keep them boths. So the asking price could be,
    10th pick + expiring +Okafor's contract + Rush + Price

    Or the Pacers could end up deciding they like Price better, so inevitably we give up the 10th pick + expiring + Rush and take on Okafor's contract for nothing.

    Just something to think about..before the Pacers rush into the season trying to find a point when the Pacers aren't going to be that good next season anyway.

    Dun and TJ for Okafor and Collison (basically being two expirings to take on Okafor's contract) Do it without hesitation. But the Pacers ought to be careful about throwing Rush and the tenth pick around. If anything, give them an expiring and Price in a PG exchange. (Also remember, this is likely the summer that NO can get the most for Collison. )
    I could not agree more with Sookie here regarding Collison, or the trading options. If you search for Collison content in last year's prospect thread, or the prospect thread from 2 years ago, you'll find many comments by me following a UCLA viewing where DC just dribbled down the shot clock looking to be the star.

    His assists are more like Westbrook's, they come off his own dribble quickness as he looks for a score, then dumps. The difference is that Westbrook is far less selfish, he just happens to be a scoring guard more than PG and he has an innate sense of where plays are going and always gets himself into the mix. Collison OTOH is meant to be a pure PG but he just hasn't shown a knack for that up to this point.

    What this means is that he's taking over your offense, and if you have no offense except spot up shooters or guys looking to finish at the rim then he can put up numbers.

    But what he isn't doing is making an existing offense work better. He will vampire away touches from your star scorers (ie, Danny, Roy) and relegate them to waiting till 5 seconds on the shot clock to get a last second dump pass and finish. He'll still get an assist in the box score for that, much like TJ Ford does. But this is not the same as running the show and enhancing the other offensive players.

    He took as many shots as Paul (per36 min) but was at 70% the assist level of Paul, shot worse than Paul, and had 50% more TOs than Paul. So how is it possible that a guy can be a 20 assist or 30 points type, numbers awesome even by Paul's standard, yet be significantly below him per minute in a year where Paul was injured even?

    Because those were the anomalies. Think about how many poor assist outings it takes to reduce 20 assists per game down to 5. 3 more games of full minutes with zero assists, 6 more games with 1-2 per game, etc.

    That's the reality.

    They had 8 guys get 35% of the minutes or more. Of that core 8, Collison was BY FAR the worst On/Off court +/- guy on the team. They were far better when he wasn't playing.

    That's the reality.

    Price did not make the 35% minutes cut for Indy, but he was the team's top On/Off +/- guy.

    Price and Collison both led teams to a 1.07 OFF rating, but defensively Price's squads shelled out just 1.04 points while Collison, a defensive ace, was part of giving up 1.12 (the 2nd worst behind Peterson).


    Why? Because Collison insists on driving to the rim and into traffic constantly, taking himself out of defensive position when he finds trouble in the paint (often) and leaving someone else to pick up his man going the other way. He leaves teammates sitting on islands watching him do his thing, much like Travis Best.

    And expecting him to change now after years of this makes no sense. It could happen, but it's not the most likely thing to happen. He had Kevin Love AND Russell Westbrook as teammates and they were just as good then, yet he couldn't rack up huge assists with them as teammates.

    He took 15 or more FGAs in 19 games.

    His 20 assists vs GSW came with the Warriors using Chris Hunter (18 min) and Tolliver (26 min) as their only bigs. No Biedrins, no Turiah, no Ellis either. On his end he had Okafur go 10-12 and West go 11-16. Drive and dump to bigs who have no one even close to their size on the court with them.

    Against Dallas he took 21 shots against 3 assits and 5 TOs. He was -19 for the game. The 2nd worst Hornet was -11. West and Collison both played 44 minutes, so nearly all the game. Somehow West was +5, meaning in the 4 minutes they didn't play at the same time the Hornets went +24 with West in and Collison out.




    Collison is a very quick ball handler, great NBA quickness. But up till now he's been extremely ball dominate. If you acquire Collison I suggest trading Granger.

    If I were the Hornets I'd trade high while I can. Or hope that by playing behind Paul (something he wouldn't be doing in Indy), Collison can learn more of a true PG style. I'm not saying he won't, I'm saying it's an issue and the odds are against a drastic shift in mentality. Guys tend to keep being who they are rather than suddenly changing.

    In Indy JOB would only exacerbate his score-first issues and 20 FGA a game would be the norm. Sure we'd have 7-8 dump off assists to go with it, but the offense would just be "set pick, Collison dribbles, wait to see how that goes".
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 06-19-2010 at 08:46 PM.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    If Collison can give me another 18 assist game while averaging 9 as a starter, he can be selfish all he wants in my eyes.

    Also, the fact that you just tried to discredit Collison, a feaking rookie, by comparing his numbers to Chris Paul, a future Hall of Famer, is so ridiculous that I don't even know where to begin.
    Last edited by Dr. Awesome; 06-19-2010 at 08:54 PM.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    And to further Sookie's point about not rushing into deals and making pointless emergency fixes, I think a majority of active fans (people watching a lot of the games) feel like JOB is perhaps the team's biggest problem.

    So how does dumping Rush/10 for Collison fix that? IMO it actually makes it much worse due to Collison's style.

    Price, Rush, McRoberts and Hibbert are all hurt by JOB. Not just in playing time, but playing style. You could "trade up" your talent simply by switching coaches. So don't wreck that roster prior to that. It's like trading Reggie Miller and the Dale pick to get Glenn Rice and an expiring while Bob Hill is still coaching.

    Don't laugh, Rice was a more respected SG early on and was making more AS teams too. And the Pacers were "stuck" with "only .500 talent". That is till Bob was dumped and Larry was brought in.



    Of course my worry is that Bird appears to have so much faith in JOB and puts all the blame on his roster, at least publicly, that he's likely to make some very foolish, rash moves.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    I do agree with you that I wouldn't give Rush and 10 for Collison. I want Collison to put him next to Rush, Collison seems like a perfect fit for both Rush and Granger. I would take on Okafors contract trying to make something work though. I think Okafor is underrated, not near worth his contract, but people act as if he sucks, he doesn't. In fact, if we can get him to learn a PF banger role, which is a possibilty, we could be set 1-5 once we get a coach who can make them mesh.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    If Collison can give me another 18 assist game while averaging 9 as a starter, he can be selfish all he wants in my eyes.

    Also, the fact that you just tried to discredit Collison, a feaking rookie, by comparing his numbers to Chris Paul, a future Hall of Famer, is so ridiculous that I don't even know where to begin.
    He won't average 9 as a starter. He just put up 7 per 36. This isn't a kid waiting on some playing time.

    I'm comparing HORNETS PG with HORNETS PG.

    Screw logic, screw comparing a known quantity using the same players with the same system to gauge a guy. Let's just cherry pick a 20 assist night vs a massively depleted version of one of the worst teams in the NBA to discredit 2 straight years of play at UCLA, and tons of other signs that he not only ball hogs but also makes his team LOSE GAMES.

    His +/- was horrible on his own team. Paul's wasn't. So he didn't fill in admirably really. What he did was load up empty stats in loss after loss.

    If the other Hornets were the problem, then they'd still be a problem when Paul was on the court. They weren't. That eliminates them as the issue.

    So then you are left with figuring out how Collison could put up big numbers in FGA, Points and assists in losing efforts with the worst +/- on this team. Same guys, Paul puts up numbers AND a good +/-. Same guys, Collison puts up numbers AND a bad +/-.

    Paul is better than him. No s***. But the Points and assists say that he's actually pretty close. I'm using the comparison to discredit those numbers as stand-alone proof of his value.


    Just look at the Pacers for a similar situation with Troy and TJ. Pacer fans would be thrilled to trade either one, but by the "he put up numbers" standard where we discount the +/- or what other players on the same team did in the same role then Troy is a superstar and TJ is very good.

    So by sticking up for Collison on stats you are really saying "trade to get Collison, then resign Troy and his double double machine".

    Some team is going to get Troy and wonder why his 40% 3P and 10 RPG aren't winning them games. I don't want the Pacers to spend a bunch to get Collison and find out the same thing.



    Of course I would take him for free, but I wouldn't take him for James Anderson or Armon Johnson or Epke Udoh, not at this point at least. Let alone having to eat another contract or give up another player.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 06-19-2010 at 09:14 PM.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Again, your comparing him with a HoF PG, that's insane. No **** the team isn't as good without their HoF PG. Did you expect Collison to make the same impact? PG is one of the harder positions in the NBA for a rookie to succeed at(only behind C). If you take away Chris Paul, I would argue that the Pacers have more talent than the Hornets, yet the Hornets still had a better record. No, I don't think Collison is that reason, but you could argue without Paul, he is their best player, West is good, but in an Antwan Jamison sense. Collison is leagues better than any PG the Pacers have had since Tinsley cared, he showed that as a freaking rookie. I doubt there's a rookie PG in the NBA who could have lead Mo Pete, Sto, West, and Okafor to the playoffs. Putting all that on Collison is silly.
    Last edited by Dr. Awesome; 06-19-2010 at 09:31 PM.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by IndianapolisPacer View Post
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    I understand a lot of people don't think he is the answer at SG, but you are not going to draft a 2nd rounder that completely replaces what he does.
    And I love how we are just hanging everything on his defense.

    First he is also a good rebounding SG.

    Second, for all his "poor" offense (code for passive actually), he just threw in 51% AdjFG%, 62% in "clutch" shooting (per www.82games.com).

    He's paid as a rookie, unlikely to see a huge contract increase when his rookie deal ends, and plays something of a Bruce Bowen role for the team.


    The issue is less about acquiring a PG, Wing or PF and more about moving the very expensive PG, Wing and PF we are still stuck with. Right now nearly every solution is really just a way to work around them being here (salary limits) or finding a way to move them.

    To me that's not the same as assembling your final team. The reason we are filling out the role players now is because that's all the team can afford to do. The "star player money" is still tied up in Troy, TJ and Dun and they aren't filling that role.

    Once that money is shifted to 2 players that can fill those roles (the pair of players that 21-25 million can bring you) the team will take a massive jump forward, even with Rush and the #10 pick still here.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    Gain, your comparing him with a HoF PG, that's insane. No **** the team isn't as good without their HoF PG. Did you expect Collison to make the same impact? PG is one of the harder positions in the NBA for a rookie to succeed at(only behind C). If you take away Chris Paul, I would argue that the Pacers have more talent than the Hornets, yet the Hornets still had a better record. No, I don't think Collison is that reason, but you could argue without Paul, he is their best player, West is good, but in an Antwan Jamison sense. Collison is leagues better than any PG the Pacers have had since Tinsley cared, he showed that as a freaking rookie. I doubt there's a rookie PG in the NBA who could have lead Mo Pete, Sto, West, and Okafor to the playoffs. Putting all that on Collison is silly.
    I AM COMPARING HIM TO A HOF PG. I just said I was.

    What you just can't grasp is the reason for doing this, despite me spelling it out in bold.

    The reason to compare them is to put those basic box score stats into some perspective, because those stats are the main Collison selling point.

    Statistically YOU (and others) see big assist totals and go "well he's going to really help". Why do you think this? Because those numbers look like the kind of numbers a guy like Paul is putting up almost, or some other really good PG.

    You just said "give me those 18 with an average of 9".

    I'm comparing to Paul to say that CP and DC have the same squad, put up similar assist and scoring numbers, but have a massively different impact.

    Same stats with a massively different actual impact means that the VALUE OF THOSE STATS is far less than you are suggesting it is when you use them to defend why Collison is a good or great PG or really a guy the team should target.


    See, I'm not comparing him to Nash because you could say "oh, Nash has better teammates or a better system". You could play the "Collison is stuck doing it all himself" card...except that Paul fits into the same spot and has massively improved success.

    The assists and points stats do NOT show that, but the +/- and W/L results do. Thus the assist and points stats are a very flawed method on their own for determining his value or justifying his value.

    By 20 assists nights and 30 points nights you have come to the conclusion that Collison is a big winner. Just like some guy elsewhere is telling all his chat buddies that Troy Murphy is one of the most underrated players in the NBA because of his 3P% and rebounding totals.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    My main point has been that Collison is a rookie. You are making it sound like this is who he is as a player. He is young and has plenty of time to improve. Very few rookies make a huge impact on a game. I think part of it is your college view of him. We've all seen in your Hansbrough arguments that once you form a certain opinion from your college scouting, that you refuse to acknowledge any positives that player may bring. Even on Hansbroughs good games, you remained negative because you disliked him as a college player - I think we are seeing the same thing now. Collisn had an 18 or 20 assits game? Yet instead of seeing how rare of a game that is for any PG, much less a rookie, you try to pick it apart and make it seem irrelevant.

    I get it, his impact as a rookie wasn't huge. But he was a fricken rookie. All reports are he is a hard worker and I've always heard he's a good locker room guy. To go with that, he has all the tools needed to improve. It's not like he's maxed out as a player.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    My main point has been that Collison is a rookie. You are making it sound like this is who he is as a player. He is young and has plenty of time to improve. Very few rookies make a huge impact on a game. I think part of it is your college view of him. We've all seen in your Hansbrough arguments that once you form a certain opinion from your college scouting, that you refuse to acknowledge any positives that player may bring. Even on Hansbroughs good games, you remained negative because you disliked him as a college player - I think we are seeing the same thing now. Collisn had an 18 or 20 assits game? Yet instead of seeing how rare of a game that is for any PG, much less a rookie, you try to pick it apart and make it seem irrelevant.

    I get it, his impact as a rookie wasn't huge. But he was a fricken rookie. All reports are he is a hard worker and I've always heard he's a good locker room guy. To go with that, he has all the tools needed to improve. It's not like he's maxed out as a player.
    I'm pretty sure what Seth is trying to say is that Collison is vastly overrated on this board- Collison is not worth Rush and #10. Yes, Collison is good and will improve, but because people overrate him the way they do now, his value is already extremely high and is unlikely to get much higher. Either he gets traded for a similar value as now, or NO hits home with Collison and he stays on the team. Yes, Collison puts up numbers, but numbers are in itself not that important. Instead, we have to look at whether or not these numbers translate into wins and losses. We have to determine whether or not these numbers will actually help the Pacers (cough Troy)

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I could not agree more with Sookie here regarding Collison, or the trading options. If you search for Collison content in last year's prospect thread, or the prospect thread from 2 years ago, you'll find many comments by me following a UCLA viewing where DC just dribbled down the shot clock looking to be the star.........
    Seth, if I had one criticism of you it'd be your unwillingness to change views on some players.

    You criticize Collison for how he gets his assists, but please tell me how that's different from Brandon Jennings, a player you gush about. If you truly watched a lot of games from both teams you'd note that they were getting the same type of assists while showing the same level of court vision.

    In fact, Collison averaged the same number of assists as Jennings while playing 5 minutes/game less, despite both teams playing near the same pace. Also, their turnovers aren't much different.

    This why I have a hard time buying your argument that Collison hasn't shown a knack for being a pure PG while touting Brandon's pass first skills. Your views are as contradictory as each player's stats. Between the two I'd take Jennings 9 times out of 10, but you should reconsider how you feel about Collison if you're going to use better stats (better than Jennings) against him, especially when he's getting assists the exact same way as Jennings.

    I hated Collison at UCLA, probably more than you did. I thought he was more of a carpenter than a basketball player, and never thought he'd amount to anything as a pro. But the more I look back at it, the more I wonder how much of Collison's play was a product of Ben Howland's atrocious offense (imo, probably one of the worst I've ever seen).

    Collison is not the same player in the pros that he was in college. He's a playmaker that makes the right decisions in transition. He's a great defender that isn't getting lost in transition.

    Do I think we should give up Rush to get him? No. Would I take him for the #10 and Solo? Probably. But I think we should be aiming higher, especially with the craze that's about to happen in the FA market. We should be aiming at Paul if he's truly available, not Collison.
    Last edited by imawhat; 06-19-2010 at 10:44 PM.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Getting Collison would be a waste of time, at least for what we would have to give up to get him. It would be smarter to draft a PF, and look to get a PG in the future.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Getting Collison would be a waste of time, at least for what we would have to give up to get him. It would be smarter to draft a PF, and look to get a PG in the future.
    I respectfully disagree. I think that, despite the possibility of losing Rush as well as taking on the horrible contract, picking up Collison and Okafor would be a great move.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Day-V View Post
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    I respectfully disagree. I think that, despite the possibility of losing Rush as well as taking on the horrible contract, picking up Collison and Okafor would be a great move.
    It isn't giving up Rush that makes the trades so bad, it is giving up the 10th pick. Trading away this years pick for a PG that we should have drafted last year is incredibly short sighted when we have a chance to fill another long term need with this draft that is more important towards winning a championship than a PG. Don't screw up this year by trying to fix last year.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    Seth, if I had one criticism of you it'd be your unwillingness to change views on some players.

    You criticize Collison for how he gets his assists, but please tell me how that's different from Brandon Jennings, a player you gush about. If you truly watched a lot of games from both teams you'd note that they were getting the same type of assists while showing the same level of court vision.

    In fact, Collison averaged the same number of assists as Jennings while playing 5 minutes/game less, despite both teams playing near the same pace. Also, their turnovers aren't much different.

    This why I have a hard time buying your argument that Collison hasn't shown a knack for being a pure PG while touting Brandon's pass first skills. Your views are as contradictory as each player's stats. Between the two I'd take Jennings 9 times out of 10, but you should reconsider how you feel about Collison if you're going to use better stats (better than Jennings) against him, especially when he's getting assists the exact same way as Jennings.

    I hated Collison at UCLA, probably more than you did. I thought he was more of a carpenter than a basketball player, and never thought he'd amount to anything as a pro. But the more I look back at it, the more I wonder how much of Collison's play was a product of Ben Howland's atrocious offense (imo, probably one of the worst I've ever seen).

    Collison is not the same player in the pros that he was in college. He's a playmaker that makes the right decisions in transition. He's a great defender that isn't getting lost in transition.

    Do I think we should give up Rush to get him? No. Would I take him for the #10 and Solo? Probably. But I think we should be aiming higher, especially with the craze that's about to happen in the FA market. We should be aiming at Paul if he's truly available, not Collison.
    Its the same thing he's doing with Westbrook. He plays guard, he handles the ball, he averages over 6 assists a game....how exactly is he not a point guard? According to Seth, he is a "scoring guard"...are point guards not allowed to score?

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sobchak View Post
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    According to Seth, he is a "scoring guard"...are point guards not allowed to score?
    If that's the case, then Steve Nash, Deron Williams, and Chris Paul are all out of a job.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    It isn't giving up Rush that makes the trades so bad, it is giving up the 10th pick. Trading away this years pick for a PG that we should have drafted last year is incredibly short sighted when we have a chance to fill another long term need with this draft that is more important towards winning a championship than a PG. Don't screw up this year by trying to fix last year.
    If he's a talented guy, then what's so bad about getting rid of the 10th pick? Yeah, maybe we should have taken him last year, but we DID get Hansborough. And yes, he was hurt, but in the short time he played, he played tough. Basically what's going to happen if that trade goes through is it'll equate to us having 2 1st round picks from 2009.

    And screwing up this year? I highly doubt Brandon Rush playing a one-man game of "The Paint-Area is Lava!" and a talented-but-fundamentally-flawed PF (which more than likely would be what we'd draft) is going to save the season. My thinking is that a GM would want someone who then KNOW can perform in the NBA. Collison has proven he can perform in the NBA and even though in a limited amount of time has shown that he can be a game-changer at times. Can you honestly say that about anyone in this draft NOT named John Wall or Evan Turner (who I think will even struggle)?
    Last edited by Day-V; 06-20-2010 at 03:34 AM.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    I do agree with you that I wouldn't give Rush and 10 for Collison. I want Collison to put him next to Rush, Collison seems like a perfect fit for both Rush and Granger. I would take on Okafors contract trying to make something work though. I think Okafor is underrated, not near worth his contract, but people act as if he sucks, he doesn't. In fact, if we can get him to learn a PF banger role, which is a possibilty, we could be set 1-5 once we get a coach who can make them mesh.
    According to mg1050, his sources indicated that the Hornets were not only asking for #10 while taking on Okafor....but was also asking for BRush in return.

    IMHO....I would hope that an Expiring Contract+#10+BRush offer would net us a Monte/Iggy/Granger level player. I know that many are enamored by Collison and I won't be able to convince you otherwise.....but I simply do not take the impact that Okafor's Contract to the Team's Long-term SalaryCap/Financial Flexiblity lightly.
    Last edited by CableKC; 06-20-2010 at 03:57 AM.
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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    According to mg1050, his sources indicated that the Hornets were not only asking for #10 while taking on Okafor....but was also asking for BRush in return.
    On a similar note, here's what Sam Amick said about discussions Philly and Detroit had about the #2 pick. This gives an indication of what Philly is looking for if you want the #2 pick. Looks like they are asking for a Top 10 pick, taking on Brand's contract and then more talent on top of that (though it should be said that Villanueva with his contract isn't very desirable himself).

    Philadelphia and Detroit discussed a deal that would have sent Tayshaun Prince to Philadelphia along with Charlie Villanueva and the Pistons' seventh pick in the draft for Elton Brand and the Sixers' second pick. Collins and the Sixers, however, wanted more in return.
    http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/06/17/k...for-dalembert/
    Last edited by d_c; 06-20-2010 at 04:04 AM.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    According to mg1050, his sources indicated that the Hornets were not only asking for #10 while taking on Okafor....but was also asking for BRush in return.

    IMHO....I would hope that an Expiring Contract+#10+BRush offer would net us a Monte/Iggy/Granger level player. I know that many are enamored by Collison and I won't be able to convince you otherwise.....but I simply do not take the impact that Okafor's Contract to the Team's Long-term SalaryCap/Financial Flexiblity lightly.
    I think that's just posturing by NOLA. They know they aren't going to get that for Collison. They'd be lucky to get rid of one of their bad contracts with Collison, and they know it.

    Tangent question: Would you rather: a) take on Okafor's contract in a Collison trade, or b) include Rush in the trade?

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Okay, if either of those are true, NO and/or Philly are asking way to much. Chad Ford has been adamant that Brand's contract alone is too much for teams to swallow. Even though I disagree (because I think Turner is worth the money), I stop there. No further.

    As for NO, asking for two lottery picks (because that's what Rush is, and he still would be today) for an okay PG and a ridiculous contract is just insane. I would think, in either case, if a team agrees to give them massive cap relief they should take the deal and run. Unless they think there's gonna be another Allan Houston excemption in the new CBA.
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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    Okay, if either of those are true, NO and/or Philly are asking way to much. Chad Ford has been adamant that Brand's contract alone is too much for teams to swallow. Even though I disagree (because I think Turner is worth the money), I stop there. No further.

    As for NO, asking for two lottery picks (because that's what Rush is, and he still would be today) for an okay PG and a ridiculous contract is just insane. I would think, in either case, if a team agrees to give them massive cap relief they should take the deal and run. Unless they think there's gonna be another Allan Houston excemption in the new CBA.
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