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Thread: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

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    Default What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    After seeing the rumors when I woke up this morning on the possibility of the Pacers trading the #10 pick to the Hornets for Darren Collison, I just had to write up an article about it, so here we go.

    The Pacers desperately are in need for a starting point guard, and if they were to acquire Collison that would fill that need completely. Not only would he bring a young player that could start for many years to come, but they would be trading for a young player that put up Chris Paul like numbers last season while filling in for the injured star. Collison brings a pass first mentality, with an uncanny ability to score the ball at will.



    I've noticed a few things about him that I like, and I'm going to try to break his game down to the offensive and defensive side of the ball.

    Offensive

    Like I stated earlier, one of Collison's biggest attributes is his ability to pass the ball. During his rookie season, Collison put up the numbers of 12.4 PPG, and 5.7 APG, but those numbers really don't give him justice on how well he played. Let me take you through some game logs here.

    3/1 vs. Spurs
    10 points, 15 assists, 5 rebounds.

    3/3 vs. Grizzlies
    17 points, 14 assists, 5 steals.

    3/5 vs. Spurs
    32 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds.

    3/8 vs. Warriors
    16 points, 20 assists, 3 steals.



    Those are just a few of his games when he was starting for the injured Chris Paul, and that shows you waht he can bring to the court. Two games in particular, show what he can do. Against he Warriors he showed that he could pass the ball exceptionally well, but then you look at the 3/5 game against San Antonio, and he put up 32 points against a very good defensive team, that shows he can put the ball in the bucket as well.

    Basically the point I was making with those stats, is that he brings a perfect balance of what the Pacers need. Last season they had guys that could do one or the other, but not both. Ford was a scoring guard who you could always mark up for double figure points, but also for just a couple assists. Watson on the other hand could put up the assist numbers, but he wasn't a very effective scorer.

    All that being said, I think this proves that Darren Collison would be a perfect fit for the Indiana Pacers. Only giving up the #10 pick for him would be a great deal for us, and I think would make us a playoff team assuming we can stay healthy.

    Defensive

    There isn't really a ton I can talk about him defensive, but again some of those stats that I put in up there show that he is very good at reading the passing lanes, and he also has quick hands. Basically if you don't pay attention to where your dribbling or passing the ball, you can expect Darren Collison to take it from you. Also, he's very quick with his feet, so he's able to stay in front of even the best point guards in the NBA, something the Pacers haven't had in their point guard for a long time. That's about all I know to put about his defense.

    Thoughts?

    Link

    This was written by me, Evan Massey, and is published at my blog.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Since Okafor would likely be the asking price to acquire Collison.....can you include the analysis of Okafor and the Salary Cap impact that he would have on the Team?

    Sorry, I'm all for getting Collison....but his price tag is a little too steep for me. I'd do it if it was Collison+Posey for #10+Dunleavy...but the likely price tag will be to take on Okafor's contract or even more ( according to mg1050, maybe even sending BRush and the Pick+Expiring Contract for Collison+Okafor ). If that is the case...no way. Pass.
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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Idk if it's the lack of sleep, but part of me wonders if the Pacers and Hornets would try and get a 3-team deal going to get Okafor in the mix? Maybe Portland? We saw how desperately they needed big men last year. I just wonder what their cap space is like.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Portland re-signed Camby, I doubt they'd be interested.
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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    @LoneRanger

    Those were the numbers Ramon Sessions put up during his stints as a starter in Milwaukee. I do like Collison, but I'm not sure he isn't TJ Ford Jr. How does a 6'0" PG translate in JOB's 'system'? If the Pacers are going to deal this pick or any of their assets, I'd rather they go for a bigger player at the point.
    Last edited by Jim R; 06-18-2010 at 08:59 PM.

  7. #6

    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Collison may or may not be a long term solution at PG. The sample
    size from his starting stint last season is just way too small to
    justify swallowing Okafor's contract as part of a deal.

  8. #7

    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    There's no guarantee Collison will be any better than Price will be. Anyone who thinks he brings a "pass first" mentality, is off. And particularly in this system. Yes, we've seen Collison put up All Star numbers for a month when Paul was out. But when he got the same amount of minutes as AJ, his numbers were worse than AJ's. Collison was also placed into a system completely geared towards the PG.

    But regardless, the asking price for Collison is likely
    10th pick + Expiring + Okafor and perhaps Rush.

    Then add in the fact that if Collison and Price end up being relatively close to equal, odds are we couldn't keep them boths. So the asking price could be,
    10th pick + expiring +Okafor's contract + Rush + Price

    Or the Pacers could end up deciding they like Price better, so inevitably we give up the 10th pick + expiring + Rush and take on Okafor's contract for nothing.

    Just something to think about..before the Pacers rush into the season trying to find a point when the Pacers aren't going to be that good next season anyway.

    Dun and TJ for Okafor and Collison (basically being two expirings to take on Okafor's contract) Do it without hesitation. But the Pacers ought to be careful about throwing Rush and the tenth pick around. If anything, give them an expiring and Price in a PG exchange. (Also remember, this is likely the summer that NO can get the most for Collison. )

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Oh this argument is ridiculous, people dont' want to take a chance on a young promising PG like Collison cause he is in some way un proven, and they dont' want Tony Parker cause he is getting too old. Just what kind of PG do you people think you are going to get? You aren't going to find a great point guard available in the prime of their career.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim R View Post
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    @LoneRanger

    Those were the numbers Ramon Sessions put up during his stints as a starter in Milwaukee. I do like Collison, but I'm not sure he isn't TJ Ford Jr. How does a 6'0" PG translate in JOB's 'system'? If the Pacers are going to deal this pick or any of their assets, I'd rather they go for a bigger player at the point.
    Except Sessions is a terrible 3pt shooter.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    There's no guarantee Collison will be any better than Price will be. Anyone who thinks he brings a "pass first" mentality, is off. And particularly in this system. Yes, we've seen Collison put up All Star numbers for a month when Paul was out. But when he got the same amount of minutes as AJ, his numbers were worse than AJ's. Collison was also placed into a system completely geared towards the PG.

    But regardless, the asking price for Collison is likely
    10th pick + Expiring + Okafor and perhaps Rush.

    Then add in the fact that if Collison and Price end up being relatively close to equal, odds are we couldn't keep them boths. So the asking price could be,
    10th pick + expiring +Okafor's contract + Rush + Price

    Or the Pacers could end up deciding they like Price better, so inevitably we give up the 10th pick + expiring + Rush and take on Okafor's contract for nothing.

    Just something to think about..before the Pacers rush into the season trying to find a point when the Pacers aren't going to be that good next season anyway.

    Dun and TJ for Okafor and Collison (basically being two expirings to take on Okafor's contract) Do it without hesitation. But the Pacers ought to be careful about throwing Rush and the tenth pick around. If anything, give them an expiring and Price in a PG exchange. (Also remember, this is likely the summer that NO can get the most for Collison. )

    Okay except you forgot on thing, AJ Price didn't take over games like Collison. Comparing the too is just silly, they will never be equal.

  13. #11

    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    graphic-er-

    For the record, it's the potential inclusion of Okafor that I have an
    issue with. I'm fine with dealing for Collison with other considerations
    involved.

    I don't think he'll ever be an All-Star caliber player. But he wouldn't need
    to be and if he can be had in a deal that makes sense (#10 + an expiring
    + swallowing Okafor's contract+ possibly Rush certainly does not), I'm
    all for it.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Okay except you forgot on thing, AJ Price didn't take over games like Collison. Comparing the too is just silly, they will never be equal.
    Just like comparing Gordon Hayward to an NBA player is just silly.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Hillman's 'Fro' View Post
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    graphic-er-

    For the record, it's the potential inclusion of Okafor that I have an
    issue with. I'm fine with dealing for Collison with other considerations
    involved.

    I don't think he'll ever be an All-Star caliber player. But he wouldn't need
    to be and if he can be had in a deal that makes sense (#10 + an expiring
    + swallowing Okafor's contract+ possibly Rush certainly does not), I'm
    all for it.
    Okafor's contract is bad, but he its not like he is an unproductive player better suited to the bench. He averages close to a double double. And you have Collison on a cheap rookie contract for the next 3 years. If you get 15 and 9 from Collison for the next 3 years, and have to over pay Okafor for those 3 years while he gives you solid play then you should totally do it. The cost is a wash.

    At this point I'd give up Brandon Rush in a heart beat, SG's are a dime a dozen. He plays good defense but you draft a SG in the second round who can do the same as Rush right now. That guy just doesn't have the aggressive streak you need out of a SG.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    There's no guarantee Collison will be any better than Price will be. Anyone who thinks he brings a "pass first" mentality, is off. And particularly in this system. Yes, we've seen Collison put up All Star numbers for a month when Paul was out. But when he got the same amount of minutes as AJ, his numbers were worse than AJ's. Collison was also placed into a system completely geared towards the PG.
    Huge difference playing with the starters and playing with the bench players.
    The fact is when he was given the keys to the muscle car he drove it like a champ. Also there were many games were he played with Paul on the court. So he wasn't even the primary PG in those instances.

    The system is irrelevant, because we wont' have this system after JOB is gone next season.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Okay except you forgot on thing, AJ Price didn't take over games like Collison. Comparing the too is just silly, they will never be equal.
    He (Price) was considered better until Paul got hurt.

    OKC for one, there were certainly a few games where Price "took" over. But it's tough to take over an entire game, when you're only given 17 minutes.

    The system is relevant. Why? Because NO system revolves completely around Paul. Which meant that their system revolved completely around Collison when he stepped in.

    My point was, given the same amount of time, Price was considered slightly better..it was only until Collison got his shot in a point guard oriented system did everyone think he was the best thing since 7-up.

    He COULD be. But he also may not even be as good as Price. And I question whether losing 10 and/or Rush..plus probably Price in the future (or Collison, if it turns out he's not as good as AJ) as well as gaining Okafor's mega contract is worth it..right now. Instead of being a bit more patient. As I said, my guess is Collison's trade value is at its highest right now.

    If Paul stays healthy next season, he's back to a 15 mpg player and people will forget about his month. If Paul gets injured again, most likely Collison becomes more valuable to NO then he would be to other teams.

    My point is to be patient. We won't be that good next season, unless there is a mega trade. We need PGs yes, but we also need to see what PG we need. Is Price starting caliber? Wouldn't it be good to figure it out before we get rid of Rush and/or 10 for someone who could be equally good (OOPS JOB, probably could have gotten a good idea in febuary/march..if he had been given 30 mpg)

    And as I said, if we really think Collison is THAT much better than AJ, then give NO Aj as a backup PG instead of giving them Rush (We're taking back Okafor's huge contract, we're in the driver's seat, I would think) or the #10. I'd just rather not waste our valuable pieces. (Or as I said, if they're willing to give us Collison and Okafor for just two expirings)

    I know, I know, grass is always greener somewhere else..
    Last edited by Sookie; 06-18-2010 at 11:26 PM.

  18. #16

    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    an expiring + 10 + Rush and having to absorb Okafor is too much to get Collison. In a vacuum it's close, but there are too many PGs being bandied about to pay that much for a young one.

    I think you either leave Rush out of it, or NO includes their pick this year or a future 1st. I've often heard that the mark of a good trade is that both teams grimace, but do the trade, and those two scenarios accomplish that. The full boat that Grady was throwing around leaves Pacers fans with a bad taste in their mouth and Hornets fans happy as a clam.

  19. #17

    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    He (Price) was considered better until Paul got hurt.

    OKC for one, there were certainly a few games where Price "took" over. But it's tough to take over an entire game, when you're only given 17 minutes.

    The system is relevant. Why? Because NO system revolves completely around Paul. Which meant that their system revolved completely around Collison when he stepped in.

    My point was, given the same amount of time, Price was considered slightly better..it was only until Collison got his shot in a point guard oriented system did everyone think he was the best thing since 7-up.

    He COULD be. But he also may not even be as good as Price. And I question whether losing 10 and/or Rush..plus probably Price in the future (or Collison, if it turns out he's not as good as AJ) as well as gaining Okafor's mega contract is worth it..right now. Instead of being a bit more patient. As I said, my guess is Collison's trade value is at its highest right now.

    If Paul stays healthy next season, he's back to a 15 mpg player and people will forget about his month. If Paul gets injured again, most likely Collison becomes more valuable to NO then he would be to other teams.

    My point is to be patient. We won't be that good next season, unless there is a mega trade. We need PGs yes, but we also need to see what PG we need. Is Price starting caliber? Wouldn't it be good to figure it out before we get rid of Rush and/or 10 for someone who could be equally good (OOPS JOB, probably could have gotten a good idea in febuary/march..if he had been given 30 mpg)

    And as I said, if we really think Collison is THAT much better than AJ, then give NO Aj as a backup PG instead of giving them Rush (We're taking back Okafor's huge contract, we're in the driver's seat, I would think) or the #10. I'd just rather not waste our valuable pieces. (Or as I said, if they're willing to give us Collison and Okafor for just two expirings)

    I know, I know, grass is always greener somewhere else..
    On the plus side, I think Collison's minutes provide our staff with plenty of film to watch and determine whether they think he is a long term solution. If they feel that he is a legit starter long term, or even a possible All-Star then they should go get him. I think it'd be harder to determine with Ty Lawson because he played well in limited minutes. I think he'll wind up being a good player though. There's just less evidence and more of a "gut feeling" if they make a move for him. There's even less on Eric Maynor. And last year we took AJ Price in the 2nd round because we felt he was close to all of those guys (besides maybe Lawson) in talent. Of course, now he's blown out his knee so who knows. My guess is still that they'll go get Lawson if they can.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Giving up the 10th pick and not getting a pick in return is not a good trade if all we will be getting is a 2nd year PG. It is more important to get a PF to play along side Hibbert, and possibly be better than Hibbert, than it is to get a PG. If the Pacers want to trade a future pick for Lawson or Collison I'd be ok with it, but not the 10th pick. Especially if we have to take on a contract like Okafor. History shows that having two great PF/C's on the court is always, with only a couple of exceptions, better than having a great PG. This draft just has too many good PF/C in it to pass it up to fix a mistake from last year.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    still think ty lawson would fit better in indy
    Murph

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    History shows that having two great PF/C's on the court is always, with only a couple of exceptions, better than having a great PG.
    Interesting comment. Not one that everyone will agree with, but interesting nonetheless.

    Tbird (and others), let me repeat here a question I posted in your Monroe thread: if you perceive a better fit & more potential in Monroe than in, say, Udoh or Patterson or Orton, yet you also suspect that Monroe will be taken in the #4 - #6 range, what would you be willing to do to move up for him? Is the incremental cost worth the potential improved value? Does your answer change for Favors and/or Cousins?

    P.S. Welcome, Eleazar!
    Last edited by DrFife; 06-19-2010 at 09:47 AM.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    I think the Pacers would be better off just picking a PF at 10, and keeping our expiring contracts this season. And in the 2nd round the Pacers have 2 picks and I would burn them both on pg's... such as Vasquez, Reynolds, Collins, Scheyer, Bouldin....... Maybe they will get lucky....

    I really like Vasquez, he is big and can shoot and pass....

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by woowoo View Post
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    I think the Pacers would be better off just picking a PF at 10, and keeping our expiring contracts this season. And in the 2nd round the Pacers have 2 picks and I would burn them both on pg's... such as Vasquez, Reynolds, Collins, Scheyer, Bouldin....... Maybe they will get lucky....

    I really like Vasquez, he is big and can shoot and pass....
    If we can't trade for a good young PG, I am completely on board with this idea.
    Grown Man Ball

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    At this point I'd give up Brandon Rush in a heart beat, SG's are a dime a dozen. He plays good defense but you draft a SG in the second round who can do the same as Rush right now. That guy just doesn't have the aggressive streak you need out of a SG.
    I understand a lot of people don't think he is the answer at SG, but you are not going to draft a 2nd rounder that completely replaces what he does.

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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by IndianapolisPacer View Post
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    I understand a lot of people don't think he is the answer at SG, but you are not going to draft a 2nd rounder that completely replaces what he does.
    It really isn't asking that much for that 2nd rounder to do. Be above average defensively and chip in 5-10 points a night. Sure Brandon had some solid scoring nights, but he had just as many nights with less than 10 points (including a handful of games that he didn't score at all) as he did nights with 10 or more. It wouldn't be at all out of the realm of possibility that we could find a guy at #40 that could fill his role on the team. I could easily see a guy like Quincy Pondexter,Devin Ebanks or Lance Stephenson filling that role if they fall to #40.

    This is being said with me actually being a pretty big supporter of Rush.
    Last edited by SMosley21; 06-19-2010 at 02:03 PM.
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    Default Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Except Sessions is a terrible 3pt shooter.
    Neither is Rajon Rondo. Not sure why Boston didn't do some of this, but when you have a player who isn't a great shooter, especially when a defender sags off of him, you make him a screener or player who hands off a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Oh this argument is ridiculous, people dont' want to take a chance on a young promising PG like Collison cause he is in some way un proven, and they dont' want Tony Parker cause he is getting too old. Just what kind of PG do you people think you are going to get? You aren't going to find a great point guard available in the prime of their career.
    Up to the point your post here, the issue for me is size. If I'm going to deal assets to get a PG, there are a few players who have produced what Collison did in their stints as starters. I'd rather go for Ramon Sessions or George Hill (over looked him last post).

    Others took issue with forming a deal that would also bring back Okafor's contract. It depends on how that would work, but on the surface, I'd wouldn't want to take his contract back. He has the same contract in terms of length left and money as Granger.

    Not sure the Pacers need to occupy 40% of their cap space on those two.

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