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Thread: 2000 Finals question

  1. #1

    Default 2000 Finals question

    Hi. I've been a poster here in the past but it has been a few years ago. I enjoy reading the boards here. So to my question. I was reading an Article in RATS today about the 2000 Finals and Jalen Rose mentioned something in the article to the effect of 'We should have kept that team together for another year or two' and it got me to thinking; Why didn't they go for one or two more years with that team? Reggie played at a high level for another 5 years, mark another 2, dale a few more, perkins played another year, and Jalen and Travis were still young. The only guy that I know that retired was Rik Smits after that year. I bet he could have been talked into staying if the team was going to make another 1 or two year run at it. I recall that that they wanted to go with a youth movement, but perhaps Walsh pulled the trigger too soon. I do remember a lot of it. I was 18 at the time, but some of it has escaped my memory. Let me know what you think. Thanks

  2. #2
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    Jackson followed the money to Toronto (God approved), Smits retired, and Dale wanted to be traded. Pretty much crushed any hope of that team coming back.

    It's a shame, too. 2001 was weeeeeak. I think they could easily have been right back in the Finals for a re-match with the Lakers. Still wouldn't have been the favorites, but I'd take it.

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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Jackson followed the money to Toronto (God approved), Smits retired, and Dale wanted to be traded. Pretty much crushed any hope of that team coming back.

    It's a shame, too. 2001 was weeeeeak. I think they could easily have been right back in the Finals for a re-match with the Lakers. Still wouldn't have been the favorites, but I'd take it.
    Cool. Yeah that is how I recall it too. But why did Dale want to be traded? He ended up coming back to the Pacers a few years later anyways. As I recall it, the Pacers beat the 76ers in 6 games in 2000 and that was the team that went to the Finals in 01, so yes I definately think the Pacers would have been the favorites in the EC in 01 that year.

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    Mark Jackson wanted a long-term contract, and, IIRC, got a 4-year, $16.X mm offer from Toronto, which the Pacers didn't want to match. (He was traded from TOR to NYK within the year, then traded by 2002 to DEN, who bought out the last two years of the deal.)

    Dale was pissed at his agent, who failed to file papers on his option, leaving him stuck on that contract for another three-years, and he thought he was underpaid. So he complained publicly.

    TPTB felt they needed to re-sign Jalen and Austin, and they dealt Dale for JO, and went in a different direction.

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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Jackson followed the money to Toronto (God approved), Smits retired, and Dale wanted to be traded. Pretty much crushed any hope of that team coming back.

    It's a shame, too. 2001 was weeeeeak. I think they could easily have been right back in the Finals for a re-match with the Lakers. Still wouldn't have been the favorites, but I'd take it.
    Yeah, I always felt the first domino to fall in the break up of that team was Jackson going to Toronto.

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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    Many reasons for that team to break up:

    1. They had gone as far as they could with their roster.
    2. Rik's feet were gone.
    3. God told Jackson to go to Toronto.
    (Naw, it had nothing to do with them offering him more money, honest.)
    4. Dale wanted more money than league rules allowed the Pacers to pay him.
    (Thus the trade to Portland where they could extend him for add'l yrs. & $$)
    5. It would have thwarted DW's evil plans to give max's to Croshere & Rose.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    The wheels of breaking that team up were put into motion the summer before the finals. The loss to the Knicks in 99 was the tipping point. AD was traded for our own (a hoped to be) version of Marcus Camby.

    Had Walsh extended Jackson and Reggie when they wanted it prior to the finals season then not only could the Pacers have saved some money but we wouldn't have lost Jackson to Toronto in the first place. Whether Rik would've stayed or not had that been solidified prior to the finals season I don't know. I suspect either he still would've retired or he would've wanted a reduced role. But Walsh ignored his talk of retiring and was hopeful he'd be talked out of it (thus leaving the cupboard bare when our starting C 'surprised' Walsh by doing what he said he was going to do and Walsh ignoring both the on the court reality of Rik's medical limitations and the reality of Rik stating his plans (with Walsh having no backup plan)).

    Nobody was more surprised than Walsh when the team made the finals in 2000. But the groundwork he'd laid that previous summer put him in the position he was. But too many people were too busy praising him to see the mistakes he was making. And then following a finals run with a rookie head coach was just the icing on the cake.
    Last edited by Bball; 06-15-2010 at 03:17 PM.
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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    Well, according to Jackson the other night, it was Smits' fault that they didn't make it to the Finals in 1998.

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    Well, according to Jackson the other night, it was Smits' fault that they didn't make it to the Finals in 1998.
    What?

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  13. #10

    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    What?
    Jackson on the Broadcast said something like 'we had a jumpball with our center Rik Smits at the end of game 7 in 98 and he lost it' or something close to that effect. Not sure really where he was going with that statement.

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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    the jump ball he lost to pippen in game 7.

    According to NBA Entertainment's take on the 1998 Bulls, that moment epitomized Chicago's players wanting to win game 7 more than Indiana's.
    Last edited by Kstat; 06-15-2010 at 03:36 PM.

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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    The thing is, the Pacers were back in the conference finals three years later with an almost completely different team, and they very well could have made it to the finals the next year if Ron-Ron hadn't happened...

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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    What?
    During game 5 of the Celtics - Lakers series, Jackson said that Smits not getting a jump ball vs. Pippen cost him (him being Jackson) a trip to the finals. Guess Jackson didn't remember Pippen basically using him for toilet paper in that game.

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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    I think the rebound where Smits brought the ball down to his waist and was stripped by Jordan was bigger than the jump ball. But those two plays happened in close proximity to each other and were certainly a momentum swing. I'm just surprised Mark it talking about it like that. Smits wasn't the one shooting 3-10 from the FT line while refusing to step out on the court and guard Kukoc... I'd blame somebody else for Game #7 other than Smits if it were me.
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  21. #15

    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    So Peck would have something to talk about for 10 years.

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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I think the rebound where Smits brought the ball down to his waist and was stripped by Jordan was bigger than the jump ball. But those two plays happened in close proximity to each other and were certainly a momentum swing. I'm just surprised Mark it talking about it like that. Smits wasn't the one shooting 3-10 from the FT line while refusing to step out on the court and guard Kukoc... I'd blame somebody else for Game #7 other than Smits if it were me.
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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    Quote Originally Posted by coltsalltheway View Post
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    Jackson on the Broadcast said something like 'we had a jumpball with our center Rik Smits at the end of game 7 in 98 and he lost it' or something close to that effect. Not sure really where he was going with that statement.
    Exactly.

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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I think the rebound where Smits brought the ball down to his waist and was stripped by Jordan was bigger than the jump ball. But those two plays happened in close proximity to each other and were certainly a momentum swing. I'm just surprised Mark it talking about it like that. Smits wasn't the one shooting 3-10 from the FT line while refusing to step out on the court and guard Kukoc... I'd blame somebody else for Game #7 other than Smits if it were me.


    It's at about the 7:21 mark of this video.

    It was actually a jumpball vs. Jordan, and Smits "losing" that tip is a bit of a misnomer.

    If you watch, Smits is actually the guy who tips the ball, but it goes right to Pippen. Of course, the reason it goes straight to Pippen is that Jordan never actually tries to tip the ball. Instead, he jumps almost dead left into Smits, then basically "tips" through Smits' elbow, forcing Rik's arm (and by proxy, the ball) towards Pippen. The video's grainy, but it looks like Jordan doesn't even get within a foot of the ball.

    But, hey, that's certainly no more egregious Reggie's push off in Game 4, and it most certainly did not have any where as close to as direct an effect on the game.

    Blaming that loss on either Rik Smits or that play is silly, at best.

    I'm having a hard time believing it was more important than any one of the 22 Offensive Rebounds the Pacers allowed, including the one that happened seconds after that jump ball.

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  26. #19

    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    The length of Harper, Jordan, and Pippen really made life difficult for Mullin and Mark Jackson on offense. The Bulls kept getting more turnovers, deflections, easier baskets, and posessions so we had to shoot an enormously better percentage than them to win. Such is life when you are living by jump shots.

    I saw a graphic near the end: second chance points 26-1, Bulls.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 06-15-2010 at 05:09 PM.
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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    I saw a graphic near the end: second chance points 26-1, Bulls.
    Well, thank God we had Dale and Tony on the court to control the glass and offset their combined 6-16 FT shooting (again, while refusing to guard Kukoc.) (Oops!!!)

    Rodman hardly played in the second half of that game.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  28. #21
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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    IIRC, Reggie Miller completely disappeared in the 4th quarter and didn't even try to score until very late when the Pacers had to chuck a couple of desperation threes.

    The Pacers led that entire game until about halfway through the 4th quarter. The Bulls used their championship poise to make all the hustle/savvy plays combined with a little luck (Pippen's three point play) to come away with a modest five point win.

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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Mark Jackson wanted a long-term contract, and, IIRC, got a 4-year, $16.X mm offer from Toronto, which the Pacers didn't want to match. (He was traded from TOR to NYK within the year, then traded by 2002 to DEN, who bought out the last two years of the deal.)

    Dale was pissed at his agent, who failed to file papers on his option, leaving him stuck on that contract for another three-years, and he thought he was underpaid. So he complained publicly.

    TPTB felt they needed to re-sign Jalen and Austin, and they dealt Dale for JO, and went in a different direction.
    And I'll continue to stand by my view that the "magic rebuild" or coaching by Isiah to save the day was vastly overplayed.

    You turned Dale and Rik into JO and Foster, so you still have a post scorer, a shot blocker, and rebounding. Toughness is close since Rik wasn't exactly a bully, but advantage 2000 there.

    Once you put good Tinsley on the roster to replace Jax, the rebuild was basically done.

    There were two mistakes which they managed to live with, and that was Croshere and Bender's deals. People talk up Bender's "known" leg issue, but when was extended for big money it was after year 3 in which he played in over 70 games and looked on the verge of breaking out. Croshere was the far worse deal because he clearly outplayed his normal game in a favorable Finals matchup, something that was pretty obvious to a lot of people.



    Anyway, if Jax just backs off the greed a little bit I think you still have a Finals caliber team with Dale traded for JO and Rik retired.


    2001 isn't the missed chance nearly as much as 2003 and 2004 were. Painful. One team poorly coached in an otherwise weak East, another team robbed by the freebee addition of Sheed to the 2nd best East team.

    Heck, just imagine if the Pacers could have pulled the Sheed for free deal instead of Detroit. I'd have been happy with Sheed just not going to Detroit at all.

  30. #23
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    Larry takes the blame for the lost jump ball in "When The Game Was Ours":

    Midway through the fourth quarter of Game 7, Indiana was up by three points when a jump ball was called between Jordan and the seven-foot Smits.

    As the players gathered around the circle, Bird noticed Scottie Pippen and Reggie Miller jockeying for position. He didn't like how Pippen was a shade in front of Miller.

    "Reggie could get beat on that," he thought to himself.

    Indiana's alignment was set up perfectly for Smits to tip behind his head - except that, as Bird realized in a moment of horror, his center never tipped that way.

    The coach turned to his assistants to make sure he had a timeout. In that moment of hesitation, the ball was tossed. Bird hollered for time, but it was too late. Pippen stepped in front of Miller to intercept the tip, and the Bulls turned the possession into a Steve Kerr three-pointer. Indiana went on to lose the game and the series.

    For the next three months, Bird brooded over his rookie mistake. He knew from his own playing days that chances at the Finals were fleeting, and it gnawed at him that he had cost his veterans a chance to get there.
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  32. #24

    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    All,

    Not surprised MJax is throwing his teammates to the curb during these broadcasts. MJax is - and always has been - all about MJax.

    Now, back to the '98 ECF. The Pacers lost because of the Smits jump ball in The World According to Jax. The fact that Jax himself turned the ball over 14 times in the first two games in Chicago and could barely get the ball across the timeline against Pippen couldn't have been a factor.

    Could it?

    MJB

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000 Finals question

    Quote Originally Posted by mboyle1313 View Post
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    All,

    Not surprised MJax is throwing his teammates to the curb during these broadcasts. MJax is - and always has been - all about MJax.

    Now, back to the '98 ECF. The Pacers lost because of the Smits jump ball in The World According to Jax. The fact that Jax himself turned the ball over 14 times in the first two games in Chicago and could barely get the ball across the timeline against Pippen couldn't have been a factor.

    Could it?

    MJB
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