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Thread: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

  1. #51
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    It's not stealing, Jay. It's not. That doesn't mean it's ok, but it's not theft.
    Are you saying its not a crime but a civil action? I think its both. As a society, we've chosen not to prosecute this form of shoplifting just as the other form of shoplifting at the mall is usually just a slap on the wrist as well. But if somebody breaks into Nike's wareshouse and starts giving away thousands of pairs of the newest shoes on the internet for free then that's a different story.

    Or are you saying something else. You aren't exactly being clear.

    - - - - - - - - - - -

    I think Soup, Travmil and others make a good counterpoint - not around the intellectual property laws that make artistic expression commercially possible in the first place, but that the music industry's prices are out of sync with what the market will bear for digital downloads.

    Digital delivery should be substantially less expensive than buying a CD or other physical form of the music. There is nothing to print or press, distribution/ warehouse/ retail costs are minimal (no rent to pay), and there aren't any minimum wage store clerks running the cash register. So digital music should cost a fraction of physical music. The cost should cover the artists' royalties, bandwidth, marketing, and a reasonable profit. That's it.

    - - - - - - - - - -

    PS, One of the ugly things going on over the past decade is that the recording labels have been increasing their "take" of the artists' royalties as if the creativity did not come from the artist but came from the label. To the extend the recording labels are paying themselves a royalty -- that's a problem They can have a reasonable profit on the risk they take. And they take risks when they attempt to identify which artists will be profitable in the future. But they don't take as much risk as the artists themselves -- and diversify that risk with a portfolio of artist contracts -- and that should be reflected as well.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  2. #52
    International Counter bellisimo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    in case you haven't seen this video...check it out...could be NSFW cause it has one or two swear words:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pidokakU4I

  3. #53
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Are you saying its not a crime but a civil action? I think its both. As a society, we've chosen not to prosecute this form of shoplifting just as the other form of shoplifting at the mall is usually just a slap on the wrist as well. But if somebody breaks into Nike's wareshouse and starts giving away thousands of pairs of the newest shoes on the internet for free then that's a different story.

    Or are you saying something else. You aren't exactly being clear.
    - - - - - - - - - - -

    you're right it is a different story. Cause with the piracy - the original files stays where it is - just gets copied, while if someone breaks in to Nike, they would be REMOVING the shoes from the warehouse. That is what makes this a totally different scenario cause its more about the right to "clone" the material instead of stealing it.

  4. #54
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood View Post
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    In general I don't "steal" music, but I also don't buy it very often. The idea that I should pay 10+ bucks to see if I even like an album is stupid. (For me it takes many, many re-listens to determine if I like an album.)
    There's nothing wrong with a friend letting you borrow his CD. But if you like it and are going to listen to it beyond the trial period (no matter how long), you shouldn't just copy his CD, you should buy it.

    I would agree with those who call for a free, limited time (expiring) download. Maybe one that can only be played from a single PC (or Mac ) and can not loaded to the iPod until full rights are purchased. That way people could sample more music. I'd probably buy more music if I had a way to sample more music that interests me. In the current "buy it before you try it" world, I don't buy much except for the artists that I'm already familiar with.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  5. #55
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    Quote Originally Posted by bellisimo View Post
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    you're right it is a different story. Cause with the piracy - the original files stays where it is - just gets copied, while if someone breaks in to Nike, they would be REMOVING the shoes from the warehouse. That is what makes this a totally different scenario cause its more about the right to "clone" the material instead of stealing it.
    There is no right to clone the material beyond "personal" use. Period. That means you can have more than one copy in your possession. You don't have the right to give it any other person.

    With a CD, when you let a friend "borrow" it, you don't have it anymore (but you'll get it back when they buy their own copy.)

    When you sell it to a friend or on Ebay, you don't have it anymore.

    Do you temporarily delete your copies of files when you let a friend "borrow" it or do you permanently delete your copies of files when you sell it?

    - - - - - - - - -

    You know what, I've bought thousands of CDs over the years. And I've had plenty of "friends" that always wanted to make thier own free copy of music I paid for. Buy your own ing copy, freeloaders. I reached the point where I wouldn't even let people borrow CDs because they were just using me as their library. Just because I'm not opposed to paying for music I like does not mean that I'm financing your music collection.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  6. #56

    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    I don't think I'm going to send Jay the mixed-tape I made for him anymore.

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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    There's nothing wrong with a friend letting you borrow his CD. But if you like it and are going to listen to it beyond the trial period (no matter how long), you shouldn't just copy his CD, you should buy it.

    I would agree with those who call for a free, limited time (expiring) download. Maybe one that can only be played from a single PC (or Mac ) and can not loaded to the iPod until full rights are purchased. That way people could sample more music. I'd probably buy more music if I had a way to sample more music that interests me. In the current "buy it before you try it" world, I don't buy much except for the artists that I'm already familiar with.
    Yeah, exactly. Most of my friends don't use CDs anymore (ugh), so lending gets hard. Plus I don't like much of their music.

    I really like that idea. I stopped subscribing to eMusic because, in addition to their atrocious price-jacks, the 30sec samples simply weren't enough for me to decide if I was spending my money well.

    If I like an album, I listen to it a LOT. If I had could somehow get a free week-long trial on an album to see if it's going to hold up to that many listening, I would be buying a lot more music.

    Generally I like to listen to albums, not individual songs (ugh - another reason why I'm not enthralled w/ the digital music scene). I've seen good ways to sample individual songs online, but never repeatedly, and certainly not the whole album.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    I am the exact opposite of you. I love listening to individual songs, but I am not a huge fan of listening to albums

  10. #59
    billbradley
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    i agree with everything LA has said. i want to add that a lot of indie groups give out digital downloads for free because tickets sales make more than cd sales for the band. the music is more important than the current record industry and i don't think the music needs the record industry anymore. you look at groups like crystal castles or sleigh bells and all you need is a catchy demo, a couple shows, and a website. every party or bar is playing your songs before your cd is even released then summer comes around and your selling out every show on your tour. even bigger bands like radiohead gave their album of the year nominated "in rainbows" for free.

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  12. #60
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    Really amazing that this just came up last night with a friend of mine. He's a mid-level (fairly) independent musical artist. He's sold out Carnegie Hall and had a free solo show in Chicago that got flooded by 15,000 fans. I don't think he'd be all that excited to know I dropped his name here, so I'll leave that part out.

    With far more humility than necessary, he told me about his concert ticket sales. Specifically compared to past musical artists. From the last 40 years, from the 70's to today, he has outsold dozens of "#1" artists in the concert ticket department. His latest tour outsold any tour by Fleetwood Mac, Skid Row, and the list goes on and on.

    He has never had a #1 record on ANY chart. People have never bought his music because a media machine told them to. They had to find him. They had to discover him. And because they found him this way, nearly everyone who buys tickets to his shows are actual FANS.

    He spoke to a benefit of the way he's found his fame: "Hopefully, the country will never get sick of me and my music. I don't think you can get sick of someone you've never heard of."

    We've gone drinking in fame central, Los Angeles. And nobody ever recognized him. Until. Until one night someone came over to shake his hand. "Your music is such an inspiration. Thank you so much! I can't wait to tell my girlfriend I ran into you!"

    On a side note, I took him out to Sunset to catch his very first wave. The guy's a natural.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

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  14. #61
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    **** the major labels. And, to Jay's point, **** Clear Channel and their zombie stations. The major labels destroyed the music industry long before file sharing. I gladly pay for music but that has more to do with my desire to help the artists' bottom line more than a major label's.

    Fact is, creatively, music is alive and well. LA is absolutely right - this is an amazing time to be a music fan. Thanks to the internet there are hundreds of ways to discover music and major labels are significantly less important. I've heard horror stories from friends or bands I've met who've been on major labels - none of them recommend it (if you're curious, there's also a book by Jacob Slichter called "So You Wanna Be a Rock & Roll Star" that is pretty good and pretty typical of experiences for bands from the 90s). As a result of the major label bull**** from the last 20ish years and technological advances making producing, releasing and discovering much easier, friendlier indie labels or self-releasing via iTunes are more viable options for musicians.

    It's a deep hole once you start discovering new music online. Websites like Hype Machine, Grooveshark, Last.fm and (natch) Pandora are fantastic for discovering new artists/songs, nazzomuch for previewing entire albums. Blogs like Indie Surfer, Brooklyn Vegan and Stereogum are great too. (Check out 2dopeboyz or Nah Right for hip hop; if you like DJ mixes check out Beezo or DJ Benzi).

    NPR Music is a great site, with archived live performances from around DC (930 Club, Black Cat, Bob Boilen's Tiny Desk), programs like World Cafe and festivals like SXSW. They often have album 'first listens' (right now you can stream the new Broken Social Scene album "Forgiveness Rock Record") where you can preview an album before it's released. There is also the weekly All Songs Considered podcast.

    You can also find 'full CD listening parties' on Spinner's site.

    I'm sure there are countless others I'm not thinking of at the moment or have yet to discover.
    Last edited by avoidingtheclowns; 04-20-2010 at 04:38 PM.

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  16. #62
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Are you saying its not a crime but a civil action?
    Nope. Copyright infringement is a crime and should continue to be. It's just not theft. That's something different.
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Nope. Copyright infringement is a crime and should continue to be. It's just not theft. That's something different.
    I should not argue about definitions with you. So I'll stop. But you're being unnecessarily pedantic as there is a lot of overlap here - one of the definitions of theft, that a person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of depriving the other of it is also a subset of infringement.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  18. #64
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    His latest tour outsold any tour by Fleetwood Mac, Skid Row, and the list goes on and on.
    I appreciate the story you posted and understand it's significance. I'm just curious how you came up with Fleetwood Mac and Skid Row for your example!? Not The Eagles and Fleetwood Mac... not the Rolling Stones and the Beatles... not even Kiss and Ozzy....

    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  19. #65
    billbradley
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    i think the title should be "greedy executives ruin the music empire" from the musician's perspective it has never been easier to reach people and have great success without lining the pockets of suits that could care less about artistic expression.

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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I appreciate the story you posted and understand it's significance. I'm just curious how you came up with Fleetwood Mac and Skid Row for your example!? Not The Eagles and Fleetwood Mac... not the Rolling Stones and the Beatles... not even Kiss and Ozzy....

    Little known fact: all musicians long to be Sebastian Bach. All of 'em. Every single one.

    How else do we explain this:

    Spoiler Spoiler:

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  22. #67
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I should not argue about definitions with you. So I'll stop. But you're being unnecessarily pedantic as there is a lot of overlap here - one of the definitions of theft, that a person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of depriving the other of it is also a subset of infringement.
    Nobody has been deprived of any property. That's why it's not theft.
    You're caught up in the Internet / you think it's such a great asset / but you're wrong, wrong, wrong
    All that fiber optic gear / still cannot take away the fear / like an island song

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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I appreciate the story you posted and understand it's significance. I'm just curious how you came up with Fleetwood Mac and Skid Row for your example!? Not The Eagles and Fleetwood Mac... not the Rolling Stones and the Beatles... not even Kiss and Ozzy....

    Because you just listed a lot of bands that have a very long history of playing stadiums? Fleetwood Mac was a recording powerhouse that never kept it together for a tour.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

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  24. #69
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    OK, Skid Row was a bad example, but guess what, all of you have heard of them and they were a #1 band at one time (before soundscan came in and "ruined" everything. )
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

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  26. #70

    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    Ew. I hating getting involved in "real" conversations. But Doug is right a couple posts above. Copyright infringement isn't theft in the U.S. It's similar. But it's not a subset of theft and is a wholly different statutory monster.

    It is, however, now theft in the UK. They just changed their laws to categorize it as theft.

    The leading case differentiating copyright infringement from theft can be found here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowling..._States_(1985))

    I get what you're saying, Jay. And I agree that the difference is almost negligible. But there is a difference between the two in US law for now (though I personally expect the RIAA to get the language changed so that it is considered outright theft of some kind). Still a crime though!
    Last edited by btowncolt; 04-20-2010 at 07:20 PM.

  27. #71
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    And my overall point was this: album sales is no longer an appropriate barometer to judge who a #1 artist is. It is in the process of needing replacement, just like how soundscan replaced distribution survey, and distribution survey replaced FM radio playlists (and so on and so on).
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

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  29. #72
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    And my overall point was this: album sales is no longer an appropriate barometer to judge who a #1 artist is. It is in the process of needing replacement, just like how soundscan replaced distribution survey, and distribution survey replaced FM radio playlists (and so on and so on).
    #1 torrent?

  30. #73
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    #1 torrent?
    Who knows? Maybe the new method is to return to the days of subjectivity. I likes what I likes and you can't tell me it isn't good just by pointing at a chart, no matter how "objective" the numbers seem.

    I believe that rock journalism, which in many areas has become replaced by "rock blogging", is a very good way to separate the good from the bad in the musical landscape. The good ones are rarely wrong. atc listed several good ones in his post above. On that topic, I've found a sort of soul-mate when it comes to a person with absolutely impeccable taste in music. If she likes it, I'm likely to love it. That person is Rolling Stone contributor and Sirius XMU DJ Jenny Eliscu. She digs deep and know how to pick them.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

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  31. #74
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    Hey guys, if you're interested in this topic at all, you should really read L.Lessig's book "Free Culture." It's amazingly excellently awesome.

    He's released it (hahaha) as a free PDF, which (according to him) has drastically INCREASED his number of books sold.

    http://www.free-culture.cc/freeculture.pdf

    Seriously. Read it. Or just read the introduction and see if you think it's worth it. But I know ahead of time what you'll think.

    It doesn’t seem this way to many. The battles over copyright and the Internet seem remote to most. To the few who follow them, they seem mainly about a much simpler brace of questions—whether “piracy” will be permitted, and whether “property” will be protected. The “war” that has been waged against the technologies of the Internet—what Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA) president Jack Valenti calls his “own terrorist war”—has been framed as a battle about the rule of law and respect for property. To know which side to take in this war, most think that we need only decide whether we’re for property or against it.

    ...

    The story that follows is about this war. Is it not about the “centrality of technology” to ordinary life. I don’t believe in gods, digital or otherwise. Nor is it an effort to demonize any individual or group, for neither do I believe in a devil, corporate or otherwise. It is not a morality tale. Nor is it a call to jihad against an industry.

    It is instead an effort to understand a hopelessly destructive war inspired by the technologies of the Internet but reaching far beyond its code. And by understanding this battle, it is an effort to map peace. There is no good reason for the current struggle around Internet technologies to continue. There will be great harm to our tradition and culture if it is allowed to continue unchecked. We must come to understand the source of this war. We must resolve it soon.
    Last edited by Anthem; 04-20-2010 at 07:50 PM.
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  33. #75
    Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freeloaders are Ruining the Music Industry!

    FYI: For those who are wondering, I'm against "piracy" and don't participate. I've never installed kaaza, ran a torrent, or any other sharing program. Same with software - if I need it I'll buy it and if I don't want to pay the asking price I won't buy it.

    However, the record labels themselves have stolen more money from artists than file sharers even could.

    They love to say they want to pass legislation or sue this person or collect that tariff "for the artists". They don't care about the artists, they just want to use them until they can't any more, then toss them away and get a new one.

    Go out the clubs, listen to live music, buy local bands' CDs, use the internet to find some other guy playing bars on the Gulf Coast and buy his CDs direct from him, etc. Support your working musicians. Listen to "independent" radio stations, find musicians YOU like and buy their stuff. Go to their concerts.

    Rock and roll never forgets...


    (Yes, it is ironic to end a rant like that with a song quote from a "major label" artist that is constantly played on ClearChannel controlled stations. I'm a complicated person.)
    You're caught up in the Internet / you think it's such a great asset / but you're wrong, wrong, wrong
    All that fiber optic gear / still cannot take away the fear / like an island song

    - Jimmy Buffett

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