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Thread: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

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    Default Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    Ok so far we have covered everybody but the rookies so we will get to them today. As before we will also bring Jim OíBrien into the picture because, well frankly almost nothing else matters to me because he affects everything.

    Tyler Hansbrough

    In a word, troubling. Letís take away all of the conspiracy theories for a moment and just look at this from a purely medical and functional standpoint. If you are dizzy you are not going to have balance. If you have no balance you can not run, jump or shoot the ball. Therefore you can not play basketball at a professional level.

    Now the question is why is he dizzy and can it be cured. I think I read last week where he has resumed some like workouts but I may be remembering something I wished and not read. As it stands right now if by the end of May he was totally healed there is a possibility that he could be in good enough physical shape to make the summer league. He will not have the strength or stamina that he once did but if he is healed by then there is a real possibility that he could be ready to go for the summer league. If he makes that than by training camp in the fall, assuming he has no set backs, he should be 100% ready by training camp. I would think if he dedicated himself to working out over the summer and had no set backs that he should be back into fairly decent basketball shape by October.

    However the above scenario is filled with pie in the sky optimism and does not account for any set backs or other injuries. Remember he still has shin splints as well.

    Ok, having gotten this out of the way letís begin to talk about his play on the floor.

    When he played frankly I liked him. He brought a toughness and physical presence to the team that we have not seen since; well we all know who I mean here. He is so much stronger than most other players his size it sometimes looked like a man throwing around a doll on the floor.

    Offensively he was kind of wild and took some really odd looking and often timeís ill advised shots. However he had a knack of drawing fouls on the opposition at a fairly high rate and as an example although he played in 1980 less min. on the floor he shot 24 more free throws than Brandon Rush. Now that is pathetic btw for Brandon he played in 82 games and Tyler only played in 29.

    But this does speak highly of Tylerís ability to draw fouls and while his 74% free throw shooting is not breathtaking it still is better than Brandonís 63%.

    Obviously he got his shot blocked several times this season but it did not ever seem to stop him form trying to go to the rack with the ball.

    He had a nice decent face up jumper going for him from up to about 12í out until he started to get dizzy then he seemed to lose the ability to hit that shot on a frequent basis.

    He is not a three point shooter so Iím not sure how that will affect him in the long term although I will say that OíBrien did not seem to hold that against him as he did play him when he was available. Odd how that works for some but not others but I wonít complain in this case as I did enjoy when Tyler was on the floor. Often times he was paired up with Foster which is both odd and interesting all at the same time. I really would have liked to have seen him be paired with Roy more just to see what that would look like in the long run.

    Defensively is where I was totally surprised by this guy. He was 10 times the defender I was led to believe he was going to be. He knows how to use his strength and leverage against other power forwards of the same size and was quick enough to stay with some of the faster ones. I canít think of a time where he was really embarrassed on defense and I can tell you that the two times I saw him play against Chris Bosh he totally shut Bosh down and frustrated him because Chris could not back him down and Tyler was smart enough to not allow Bosh room to move around him.

    Now having said all of the above glowing things about him I really have to wonder if the Pacers should not have taken a point guard in the first round last season seeing as how once again we are going into the off season with our one year rental going to hit the road and no solid heir apparent on the bench.

    He is also not the warmest and loving person on the bench either. Now behind the scenes the guy may be a ball of fun and energy but he is the opposite of Roy Hibbert when it comes to supporting his team mates as he often tried his best to imitate The Moai statues of Rapa Nui.

    Also if for some reason Tyler is done with basketball (obviously we hope he is not and it would be a very rare thing if he was) then this is going to go down as a blunder of epic proportions. As it is now it would be easy for a critic of Bird or Tyler to already say that this was a failure seeing as how several other players picked below him have already played more games and look to be as good if not better than what Tyler did. I however want to wait till next season to see where we go with him.

    A.J. Price

    Not your typical second round point guard player. Heís actually pretty good and in fact there were times where I thought he was playing as well as or better than some of the starters at certain points this season. He has no fear which can be both a boon and a bane all at the same time. Often times he takes a shot a little quicker in the offense than I would like however once again we have a coach who does not value shot selection as the highest priority.

    Like any rookie he has to work on his turnovers and I would like to see him become a better dribbler this summer and while his defense is acceptable for what he was, it is not good enough if he wants to be either a starter or the first backup on the team.

    Which in and of itself is a good thing if you think about it. He is actually good enough that we might be able to consider him a starter at the point someday and for a second round pick that is pretty good.

    I hope he is in our summer league and I hope that he and some of the others get together and work on their own this summer to develop some team chemistry. He seemed to have a rapport going with Brandon and Josh and Roy as they all seemed to play better together on the floor and in fact that unit was key in the comeback win vs. the Jazz which was both exciting for the moment and exciting to think about it.

    Overall I think both rookies were decent although it was sad that Tyler had his season cut short by injury and illness and I would really have liked to have seen A.J. play some more min. on the floor but hopefully with a full summer to work out and another training camp we will see more of him next year.

    Now for the season wrap up.

    To quote the great Roger Daltry I ďwonít get fooled againĒ. Yes folks I freely admit I was a sucker last summer. I honestly believed when Bird spoke and talked about focusing in defense and then not only spoke about it but went out and got players who were known as either good defenders or decent serviceable defenders. I thought coming into this season we were going to see a change in the overall culture and style of play of the team. I foolishly thought that we were going to be more physical and would start everything from the defensive end.

    Well that went right out the window in the first game at Atlanta and it really went to hell by the first home game to the Heat.

    I never once thought we would be a playoff contender but I honestly never thought we would end up being as bad as we were either. Not in my wildest nightmares did I think we would see a December where we went 3 Ė 13. In fact if you go back to November 18, which was the fist game after the first five game winning streak we went 4 Ė 19 which is beyond pathetic.

    Look I donít mean to be combative here but I am going to stand up for myself this once. I am a Pacers fan, I have been all of my life and I still am to this day. But I have never wanted to end a season before we even crossed the year mark and this season I did. In fact I really had to drag myself to games from January to March because it was very hard to watch this when games already meant nothing and you werenít seeing players on the floor for development purposes.

    This is the first year that I know of that if there was a conflict of a game and a TV show that my wife wanted to watch that I literally just said letís not worry about the game and just watch the show. Iíve never done that before.

    I consider this season to be such a huge waste of time that I honestly never want to have to think about it or go over it again (although I am sure I will).

    I will give the team this, we had injuries. Some of which were devastating to the club like Dannyís foot injury to make him hobbled to start the season and then tearing it to put him out for about a month. Tyler not being available for training camp and the first 3 games of the season then going down for the year with vertigo or Jeff destroying his back.

    So yes the club and even OíBrien gets some breathing room from me on this.

    However other teams suffered through equally bad injuries and came together as a team.

    Letís not kid ourselves here people with our ending record. If it wasnít for some odd wining streak down towards the end of the season we were a team that was going to win about 25 games and in reality as the last two losses of the season showed us that is really right about where we were in terms of quality. This season was not like the previous two because while they were really not much better teams during those two season overall, at least they were competitive in most games. I lost track of the number of times we would be down by 20 points at the end of the first half and how many double digit losses we suffered for the season.

    However the most frustrating thing for me was that when it became painfully clear that we were not going to be competitive again this season that instead of trying something anything different OíBrien would try the same old nonsense of claiming small ball would be what would keep our team in games, no matter how bad we were getting the crap kicked out of us while doing this. The old definition of insanity (trying the same thing over and over but expecting different results) kept coming into my head all season long.

    His absolute overuse of Troy Murphy just became a symbol for everything that was wrong with this team. No matter how bad the team would get beat with him on the floor, no matter how good another player might play, no matter that sometimes you just have to shake things up, he would stick with Troy. Why you may ask? Itís simple really, Troy allows him to fixate on the one simplistic idea that he has as a coach. That if your big man can shoot from outside it will draw out the other teams big men and allow driving lanes for your guards and wings to drive.

    Like Communism this works on paper, however in real life not so much. Teams adjusted to this early on and good teams just would down right abuse this system.

    Now here is the one bit of a compliment I will give him for this. If your threeís are dropping at a high rate you have a chance to beat any team. Much like in a boxing match a person can be outclassed but if they are a good puncher and hit the right punch they can win. Well there were games where this worked. It worked far more often last year but mostly overall it didnít work out this year.

    There is nothing wrong with having a system; however you have to be not so stubborn as to not use it when itís not working.

    The few times that he went away from this system we were able to be competitive. The Utah game comes to my mind. Yes Danny was on fire and was hitting everything and that was a major role in the game, however the athletic defense of Rush, McRoberts and Price is what turned that game around.

    It may be to simplistic to blame everything on OíBrien and like I said in post number 1 there were certainly other things that occurred and some players who did not play up to their potential. However shot selection, player min. distribution, lack of off the ball movement, poor defense due to player selection all fall directly on the coach.

    If he didnít like all the quick shots then he is not some invalid that can do nothing about it, if players werenít playing defense with the intensity he didnít like then again he can do something about it, if players are standing in one spot and not moving itís not like he canít make a change.

    I go back to being a Pacers fan. I have already bought my tickets for next season I did this when I knew full well that Jim OíBrien was going to be the coach. For all of my griping and complaining I am just too big of a sucker to not get tickets.

    But I also go into next season with my eyes wide open this time. No matter what Bird sayís or who he brings in here until Jim OíBrien is no longer the coach I just can not see the team every truly being anything other than a door mat in the NBA. Maybe a door mat that can trip up a few people on occasion, but a door mat nonetheless.

    However as I look to next season I am going in with the thought that the same group will more or less be here with a couple of draft picks. Head and Watson will probably be gone and they may even swing some deal that brings in a new point guard but unless that guards name is Chris Paul I just donít see it making that much of a difference until OíBrien is no longer here.

    I suppose the one thing that might change this up and still keep OíBrien here would be find someway to get rid of Murphy. Maybe if he didnít have him to fall on every game we wouldnít have to suffer through this as much as we have. For that matter you better get rid of Dunleavy as well because he would probably just give the min. to him.

    So no friends none of my posts bear any dancing fruit nor any of my usual poor attempts at humor. This season just sucked the life and joy out of me and I needed to let it out in these posts.

    However while there is no dancing fruit I will leave you with the one fruit that does sum up the season.



    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    ...Still "flying casual"
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    Hansbrough's foul shooting shouldn't be a issue, he started off slow his first 5 games and struggled in his mini comeback but from Nov 20 to Dec 27 he shot 62-of-74 83.8% including the intentional miss at the end of the big comeback in Washington.

    And Tyler did get embarrassed once on D,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__OuSkzJwEE
    Last edited by AlexAustin; 04-19-2010 at 02:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexAustin View Post
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    Hansbrough's foul shooting shouldn't be a issue, he started off slow his first 5 games and struggled in his mini comeback but from Nov 20 to Dec 27 he shot 62-of-74 83.8% including the intentional miss at the end of the big comeback in Washington.

    And Tyler did get embarrassed once on D,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__OuSkzJwEE
    I stand corrected.

    As was said in the clip that was filthy.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I stand corrected.

    As was said in the clip that was filthy.
    God. Rush is the only one even trying to play defense there.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    Vertigo is separate from being dizzy, btw.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    As much as people want to pile on Larry for taking Tyler, I think using the health situation against him is ONLY valid if there is some idea that we should have known about it ahead of time. I doubt that shin splints cause ear infections, vertigo, or post-concussion syndrome, and it seems that the concussion being talked about took place in the NBA not in college.

    Not taking other players who were better or we needed more - fine, give good reasons, no problem with the argument whether I agree or not. But saying someone should have foreseen what happened to Tyler and therefore this was a blunder from that perspective is unfair.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Vertigo is separate from being dizzy, btw.
    While technically true it is not totally isolated from one another however in Tylers case I am using what I've read about him in that dizzyness was one of his symptoms.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    I have read each of your post season odd thought threads, but haven't posted much in the threads.

    Watching the playoffs for two days straight got me to thinking, and asking what is the key difference between the pacers and the playoffs teams.

    Is it coaching?

    is it talent?

    Is it attitude, effort, commitment, exactly what is it.

    There are many reasons, the two biggest reasons is point guard (unless you have Kobe, Wade, Lebron) and our big guys as a group are the most un-athletic, slow, non-physical group not only of the 16 playoff teams, but maybe of any team in the NBA. Big guys are the power forward and center, so Troy, Roy, Solo, Josh. We are so weak inside, we are so slow, so un-athletic. I've learned to enjoy Roy, but if he is going to be our center and I think he will be good enough for us, then we need a power forward that is at a much higher level than anything we have now, and as much as I really like Tyler, I don't think he is going to be the answer.

    We need a major upgrade at power forward and point guard. Should we have drafted a point guard last year? I don't know, not unless there was a point guard there that would be good enough to be a starter for us for years to come and if not an all star, then pretty close. The last thing we need is another very good backup caliber point guard, we've had about a dozen of those players come and go over the past 5 seasons.

    Let me address the coaching situation. My biggest complaint about O'Brien is rarely discussed in this forum. oh sure in general most will say yes the Pacers defense stinks or it needs to get better, many blame the system. The system is fine and overall the Pacers defense is average which considering the incredibly poor interior defenders, is remarkable. So I think the system is fine, in fact it is quite different from JOB's first year here.

    What O'Brien has not been able to do is get the pacers team to be as good of a defensive team as they should be. As JVG said as he was doing the Thunder game yesterday, being a good defensive team doesn't happen by accident (Thunder's defense is excellent by the way, and sure they have much better athletes than the Pacers) it takes a commitment from the GM, to the coach and coaches and players, mainly the best player. I blame JOB and Danny for this, Danny only plays defense well when he goes against the top line players.

    I question what the players view as the most important thing. Is it defense? I don’t think so. I fear that offense is emphasized in practice more than defense, I remember a quote from Dunleavy about how they have really been working on their offense. Maybe this offensive system takes too much time and to coaching to master and maybe that is why the defense isn’t where it should be, and maybe that is why the offense wasn’t very good this past season until March. The offense is.

    I enjoyed watching the playoffs the past two days , really enjoyed it. Loved watching the Thunder’s defense, seeing a bunch of young guys buy in and play defense like that is something to see, and I credit brooks for that he and Durrant. I enjoyed seeing a Larry Brown coach team play tough physical defense and offense, yes physical offense, wow do they drive the ball get into the paint.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I have read each of your post season odd thought threads, but haven't posted much in the threads.

    Watching the playoffs for two days straight got me to thinking, and asking what is the key difference between the pacers and the playoffs teams.

    Is it coaching?

    is it talent?

    Is it attitude, effort, commitment, exactly what is it.

    There are many reasons, the two biggest reasons is point guard (unless you have Kobe, Wade, Lebron) and our big guys as a group are the most un-athletic, slow, non-physical group not only of the 16 playoff teams, but maybe of any team in the NBA. Big guys are the power forward and center, so Troy, Roy, Solo, Josh. We are so weak inside, we are so slow, so un-athletic. I've learned to enjoy Roy, but if he is going to be our center and I think he will be good enough for us, then we need a power forward that is at a much higher level than anything we have now, and as much as I really like Tyler, I don't think he is going to be the answer.

    We need a major upgrade at power forward and point guard. Should we have drafted a point guard last year? I don't know, not unless there was a point guard there that would be good enough to be a starter for us for years to come and if not an all star, then pretty close. The last thing we need is another very good backup caliber point guard, we've had about a dozen of those players come and go over the past 5 seasons.

    Let me address the coaching situation. My biggest complaint about O'Brien is rarely discussed in this forum. oh sure in general most will say yes the Pacers defense stinks or it needs to get better, many blame the system. The system is fine and overall the Pacers defense is average which considering the incredibly poor interior defenders, is remarkable. So I think the system is fine, in fact it is quite different from JOB's first year here.

    What O'Brien has not been able to do is get the pacers team to be as good of a defensive team as they should be. As JVG said as he was doing the Thunder game yesterday, being a good defensive team doesn't happen by accident (Thunder's defense is excellent by the way, and sure they have much better athletes than the Pacers) it takes a commitment from the GM, to the coach and coaches and players, mainly the best player. I blame JOB and Danny for this, Danny only plays defense well when he goes against the top line players.

    I question what the players view as the most important thing. Is it defense? I donít think so. I fear that offense is emphasized in practice more than defense, I remember a quote from Dunleavy about how they have really been working on their offense. Maybe this offensive system takes too much time and to coaching to master and maybe that is why the defense isnít where it should be, and maybe that is why the offense wasnít very good this past season until March. The offense is.

    I enjoyed watching the playoffs the past two days , really enjoyed it. Loved watching the Thunderís defense, seeing a bunch of young guys buy in and play defense like that is something to see, and I credit brooks for that he and Durrant. I enjoyed seeing a Larry Brown coach team play tough physical defense and offense, yes physical offense, wow do they drive the ball get into the paint.
    You are dead on in stating that Danny holds almost as much responsibilty as the coaching staff and management for the intensity that the defense plays.

    When he wants to he is a good defender and at times a very good defender but he doesn't show that every game. That is what seperates good from great players.

    I am looking forward to your year end review.

    Also your critique of JOB is spot on as well when it comes to team defense. You put in a few words what I never could get out in hundreds of words. I think my problem was my posts were filled with to much emotion (intentionally I admit) and yours was purely logical.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    When he wants to he is a good defender and at times a very good defender but he doesn't show that every game. That is what seperates good from great players.

    I am looking forward to your year end review.

    Also your critique of JOB is spot on as well when it comes to team defense. You put in a few words what I never could get out in hundreds of words. I think my problem was my posts were filled with to much emotion (intentionally I admit) and yours was purely logical.
    Won't be around much this week to do a year end review. This was sort of it, I'm afraid.

    On danny - his reluctance to play defense every night not only impact his level of D, but as I always say an NBA team is only as good as its best player. And I'm not just talking about talent. Danny's inconsistant (at best) defense directly influences how his teammates play defense, approach defense. if the best player rests on defense then the rest of the team will also. if the coach allows him to rest on defense that hurts the team even more. If the coach and the best player aren't committed to defense every day, every practice, every minute of every game, then the rest of the team will get the message that defense isn't the 1st priority.

    I think this forum gets so bogged down in discussing the 8th best player on the Pacers, the 11th best player, the meaning rotations, whether the 10th best player should get 10 minutes per game or 12 minutes per game. What is important is what the best player and the coach do, their relationship, what they emphasize. So many of you believe that I think coaching isn't important, I think it is important and the most important dynamic on any team is te best player coach relationship. Why do you think Pop has lasted as long as he has - it is because of TD and Pop, TD buys into Pop 100%. I just think this forum gets so bogged down in what I cosider not very important things
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 04-19-2010 at 11:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    I think that if Danny had a second scorer or someone that can generate offense that he'd not have expend his energy being the teams best scorer...and not having another guy that can score or generate scoring then he could focus in on the defensive end more.

    I'm not a Danny apologist and I'm not letting him off the hook, but genuinely belive on most nights he probably feels he has to score 30 to win and you know what he's probably right.

    Murphy can get 20 on a given night, but it's a result of Danny most of the time or that Troy is being guarded by a guy or team in the first half that doesn't limit him in the way they should. Troy doesn't generate offense, he is merely the recipient of someone else doing it. I don't have the measurement in front of me, but I'd guess anytime Troy scores 10 plus in the first half, he scores poorly in the second half. Teams adjust and Troy has no counter.

    Roy can be the second type scorer, but at this point in his development he is limited at time by match up, but as often by being on the bench. Roy can score, but not all the time and not when he's not playing.

    To me, it goes back who is running the thing. If you tell Danny look Defense is your primary responsibility and creating for others on offense, then you'll see a drop in numbers, but you'll see an improved team.

    An article from the print version of the star last week that I didn't see referenced in PD was direct quotes from Obie. To summarize, next year Obie says that BRush gets a long leash and won't be taken out of games when he struggles. When asked about Roy he readily admitted next year will be more of the same, match up/performance driven.

    I was ticked. I felt like if Roy can play and play at the end of games it's for the betterment of the team and Danny for that matter. Roy is going to have to take his lumps, but it's not like he's sucking for one and it's not like he's not learning from mistakes as well.

    Anyway, it's all tied into giving Danny the opportunity to play defense and not feel like he has to score 30 to win a meaningful game.

    As much as TJ falls short, I'd guess if there was a metric for how well Danny plays Defense when coupled with TJ, it would show as something positive. TJ hurts you in the big picture in other ways, but imo he helps Danny be able to play D.

    So back to Bucks post, ya they need a guy who can muck and do the dirty work and allow the good defenders to be good. They also need someone to allieviate some of the scoring burden so that those same good defenders can focus on that task, as well, imo.
    Last edited by Speed; 04-19-2010 at 12:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    I think there were a lot of problems with having JOB as our coach, and a huge one was that simply the players do not fit his system. Price, Troy, Head, Rush, and Danny all have the abilities to fit his system (although, mentally, I'm not sure Rush is there with it) and that's it. I think the PG rotation which O'brien used for most of the year TJ/Earl really hurt him, because in his system he needs to spread the floor...and Earl and TJ can't do that.

    Onto Price, obviously I'm now a fan of this team because of Price. I'm not shy in saying that. But I'll throw this out there, I have seen Rip, Ray Allen, Caron Butler, Emeka Okafor, Ben Gordon, Charlie V, Rudy Gay and countless other great Uconn players go through the school, and Price is the only one I've bothered to actually really follow in the NBA. I really don't know when I went from hating the fact that the kid was still on the team after laptop gate, to him being my favorite Uconn player of all time. Maybe it's the "never quit" attitude... Maybe it's the intangibles, honestly this isn't hyperbole, the kid displayed every intangible a coach could want in his point guard, unselfishness, clutch ability, leadership, high bball IQ, hard worker incredible floor general. I haven't seen a kid control a game at the college level like Price could. (Dominating and control are different.) I like intangibles in basketball players.

    For a lot of reasons, Price was left on the draft board so late, but I think it's obvious at this point that talent wasn't one of them. He's older, but he also hasn't had the opportunity to improve his game like most 23 year olds. He said that he was back to what he was in highschool, about the time he tore his ACL...which meant he would have to try to back to his highschool level again for his senior year in school. He improved his shooting and obviously he developed a set of intangibles, but other than that he can certainly improve as much as any of the younger guys.

    For me, the most interesting thing about him in the pros is that skill wise, he can do everything he did in college, although his shooting percentage isn't as good, he can still get any shot that he wants. He has an easy time driving to the basket, his floor vision is fine ect...the only thing he doesn't do as much is that he preffered at Uconn to pass from the perimeter, he used to fire a bullet into the paint for an open shot (usually to Jeff Adrien, Thabeet wouldn't have been able to catch it) I've seen him do it a few times in the pros, whereas he'd do that once or twice a game at Uconn. I think he did that twice this season. (Once to Roy and once to Troy) Perhaps that's something we'll see more in the future. But it was more the "feeling comfortable and playing HIS game" that was missing from AJ this season. Which I think is mostly a combo of being a Rookie and having JOB as a coach.

    The thing that I've learned about Price, when the odds are low, it's almost a guarantee that he'll beat the odds.


    Hansborough. I really think, if he gets to play, that in the end, we'll all be happy about this pick. Hans is a tough kid, an extremely hard worker, and really really really doesn't deserve to end his career this way. I imagine if he gets the chance, he'll prove people wrong about him in the NBA just like he did in college. I just really hope he gets that chance.

    I also think he'd be a very good player next to Hibbert. He's a bit quicker, more Physical, he's the stereotypical PF which Hibbert needs.


    Overall, I really like the young guys on this team. Rush (Plz plz plz plz plz plz don't trade him..) Roy, Josh, AJ, and Hans, and of course Danny. We've seen the younger guys, specifically AJ, Rush, and Roy, clearly come together..play extremely well together, and saying things to the press that shows they WANT to play together. (Rush saying, "I think the younger guys will start playing the most minutes, and together soon" AKA "PLAY AJ NAO KAY THNX"..and Roy saying "I hope our core returns next season" AkA "PLZ KEEP RUSH" ) I think Josh fits in with them well, and I'd like to see Hans in that group.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

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    What is important is what the best player and the coach do, their relationship, what they emphasize. So many of you believe that I think coaching isn't important, I think it is important and the most important dynamic on any team is te best player coach relationship. Why do you think Pop has lasted as long as he has - it is because of TD and Pop, TD buys into Pop 100%. I just think this forum gets so bogged down in what I cosider not very important things

    That might just be the problem. Granger isn't a fan of Jimmy. As posted b4, maybe he was upset/resented that Jimmy's option was picked up for next season. He doesn't like Jimmy and doesn't give his all to play for Jimmy. He doesn't buy into Jimmy's system like Duncan does Pop.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    That might just be the problem. Granger isn't a fan of Jimmy. As posted b4, maybe he was upset/resented that Jimmy's option was picked up for next season. He doesn't like Jimmy and doesn't give his all to play for Jimmy. He doesn't buy into Jimmy's system like Duncan does Pop.
    Certainly possible, but I'm not convinced there are any outright problems between the two, at least I have not seen any evidence of problems. Does Danny buy into what O'Brien is trying to get the team to do? I don't know, I do wonder.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Certainly possible, but I'm not convinced there are any outright problems between the two, at least I have not seen any evidence of problems. Does Danny buy into what O'Brien is trying to get the team to do? I don't know, I do wonder.
    Why would he buy into it?
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

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    Why would he buy into it?
    besides the fact that he is getting paid 9m per year to play basketball and he is supposed to be a professional?

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    besides the fact that he is getting paid 9m per year to play basketball and he is supposed to be a professional?
    No... That would be why he's shuts up and does his job.

    I'm asking you why he should buy into it and believe O'Brien has the tools and ability to present them and use the team in a way that will further the team (and further Granger as a player as well).

    What about O'Brien's coaching, desired overall system, use of players, etc tells you or Granger that O'Brien is the leader they need and the man for the job?

    What exactly is 'there' that should have him throw his heart and soul into playing for Jim O'Brien?
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

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    No... That would be why he's shuts up and does his job.

    I'm asking you why he should buy into it and believe O'Brien has the tools and ability to present them and use the team in a way that will further the team (and further Granger as a player as well).

    What about O'Brien's coaching, desired overall system, use of players, etc tells you or Granger that O'Brien is the leader they need and the man for the job?

    What exactly is 'there' that should have him throw his heart and soul into playing for Jim O'Brien?
    You seem to be asking me a question that you already know the answer to. You know my opinion about O'Brien both positive and negative as I have put a few of the negatives in this thread. Overall I think Danny should enjoy playing for O'Brien. Bball, I know your opinion on JOB and it is duly noted

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    I keep thinking that one of the things that inspired Danny to play better in the last meaninless games, is that right now he is the alpha dog and like any alpha dog he did not wanted a guy like Wall or Evans to take his place, we keep forgetting that the NBA is a business and players have a really small window to make money.

    I remember many interviews with Paul Pierce, Garnett and Allen talking about this, in how they don't care to be the main guys now that they are older and have already made lot of money.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    I think Danny played well over the last 20 games of the season because he was the healthiest he had been all season. I don't think it is anything more than that

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    You seem to be asking me a question that you already know the answer to. You know my opinion about O'Brien both positive and negative as I have put a few of the negatives in this thread. Overall I think Danny should enjoy playing for O'Brien. Bball, I know your opinion on JOB and it is duly noted
    No, I don't know the answer to the question I'm asking.

    I don't see what O'Brien actually offers Granger as a coach that should have Granger buying into his ways. That's what I'm asking you to elaborate on. I'm probably not going to agree, but I don't even know what it is you can point to so I have a hard time knowing what I'll think if you'd explain it.

    In fact, I think this is the crux of what is a huge problem... These guys all TRIED to do it O'Brien's way and it got them nowhere the first 2 years. Last year and this coming year was and will be players going thru the motions. The team may not be malcontents and divas and standing up to O'Brien or making public scenes, but they aren't going to put their heart and soul into playing for him either... They tried... It didn't work. And for many of us, it was understandable why things didn't work.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

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    I think Danny played well over the last 20 games of the season because he was the healthiest he had been all season. I don't think it is anything more than that
    I don't think that Danny's health is an excuse, he was not playing with passion, there were times were he looked lost, don't you think that him wanting to stay as the "franchise player" is a good reason? I know we don't want to think about Danny that way, but like I said before this is a business and by him staying as the alpha dog he makes more money than by just been the second or third best player on the team.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I don't think that Danny's health is an excuse, he was not playing with passion, there were times were he looked lost, don't you think that him wanting to stay as the "franchise player" is a good reason? I know we don't want to think about Danny that way, but like I said before this is a business and by him staying as the alpha dog he makes more money than by just been the second or third best player on the team.
    I think his health was worse than he let on. It's really tough to stay as locked on as you need to be with a severe injury.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 5

    I genuinely enjoyed this series of posts, Peck. Sums up a lot of the same opinions I've had regarding this season.

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