Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 4

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,259

    Default Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 4

    So far we have reviewed O’Brien, Bird, Murphy, Dunleavy, Ford, Watson, Granger & Rush. As before I am not limiting myself on talking about O’Brien when talking about any player because I feel that every single player is of course affected by coaching and in our case bad coaching.

    So without further delay let’s look at the following.

    Roy Hibbert

    One of the very few bright spots in another wise terribly horrid season. On occasion this season I had to watch league pass to view games that were not broadcast on fox sports Indiana. Without fail on every single broadcast I watched the oppositions telecast team would always talk about one player. Believe it or not it was not Granger. Sure they talked about Danny in the pre-game or if he was doing something special, but without fail they always talked about Big Roy. Usually the adjectives that were being used were “a load”, “a force”, “a real presence”, etc.

    Most of the broadcast teams would always preface their statements by saying that soon Roy will be a load to deal with or that he will be a force to deal with and that one day he will be a real presence in the paint. However a couple of the broadcast teams did not use the future as the context to their discussions. Orlando, Oklahoma City and Charlotte broadcast teams all used the current time frame when making the same claims about Roy. Orlando’s announce team in fact said that Roy gave Dwight more fits than about any center in the NBA because of his height and ability to shoot. They also claimed he had a Gumby like quality that allowed him to keep bending but not breaking and bouncing right back whenever Howard would use the forearm to guard Roy.

    I said this in another post sometime at the end of the season but I’ll go ahead and say it again. Roy Hibbert is the most important pacer right now. Don’t get me wrong, Danny is the best but for this team to move forward to another level we are going to have to have an anchor in the middle and right now until we find someone better Roy is it. Now all of that changes if we bring in some star through either draft or trade, but for now and for next season Roy has got to be the focus of how we initiate our offense.

    However the devastatingly bad thing is that we have a coach who does not like post up offense and has little to no patience for Roy.

    NEVER EVER FORGET that up until the month of March Jim O’Brien thought that it would be a good idea to frequently bench Roy at the start of a game and instead start Troy “saloon door” Murphy as our center. That’s right, our center.

    Also NEVER EVER FORGET that on our last game of the season with our one low post offensive player healthy and scoring a career high in points that for the last two min. of the game with our team down by one point that Jim O’Brien thought it would be best to bench Roy and play once again Troy “saloon door” Murphy at the center spot. That’s right, at the center spot.

    I will also remind everyone that while we all, well everybody except for a few anyway, were happy to see Roy get some quality playing time on the floor this season NEVER EVER FORGET that Roy would probably have had half of the min. on the floor and even less than half of the starts he got if Jeff Foster would have been healthy.

    That’s right kids our old beaten down broken old backup center would have been starting most games and would have had at least 20 min. every game thus making it so that Roy would have surely had a few DNP-CD’s as the season went along.

    Next season I wonder if the same will hold true. If Foster is back and healthy will Jim still go back that way or will he be forced to stick with Roy?

    I think Jim O’Brien likes Roy the person but is just not a fan of Roy the player or at the very least has a very short tolerance for him and thus is quick to yank and then not return him.

    As for Roy himself it’s hard to not like the guy. He is by all accounts a decent human being, a hard worker, an eager learner and a great team mate. If Roy has a fault it is he can get to down on himself after a series of bad plays. He sometimes goes to the bench and hides under a towel as though he were being sent to his room. Which, to me anyway, is not the worst trait you can have in a player? I would much rather have that than someone who goes to the bench and doesn’t seem to care.

    Roy is always the first person up off of the bench cheering his team mates on and he has done an excellent job of keeping his tongue in check and has garnered the respect of the officials. That is really the difference between Roy and Harrison when it comes to the officials. Roy is respectful and has a dialog going on with them where David was a complainer and had yelling matches with them. Roy is now being given the benefit of the doubt and David never did get that. There are other differences obviously but this is a major one.

    Now where I will give Jim some credit is that I do think he has forced Roy to improve his foot speed. This is a good thing as it has helped Roy defend at a higher lever than he did last season and he also seems to be able to move in and out of the lane on the offensive end quickly and had very few 3 second call issued to him.

    Roy has improved his ability to shoot with either hand around the basket, his passing is top notch for a center, he is good up to about 15’ and as we have seen he can take a 3 point shot and hit it. Much to my chagrin but I’m sure much to Jim’s delight.

    On defense he cut the stupid fouls way down this year. If for no other reason than he learned that he can stand flat footed and raise his arms without attempting to jump and still be one heck of an obstacle for the opposition to shoot over. Again though, added foot speed helped.

    He is not an elite center and I don’t actually believe he ever will be. But I do believe that he will be a throw back center to the days of the 80’s & 90’s where it took good centers a couple of years to figure it out but once they did they were good for a good long time. I think Roy can easily have a 12 year or more career as long has his health remains.

    To step up to the next level I think Roy has got to become a better rebounder and a more dominate post player.

    But overall Roy improved as much if not more than what most of us thought he would from his rookie campaign.

    Dahntay Jones

    Ok, I’ll admit I like Jones. I generally like players that are filled with fire and have a high motor. He has faults though so we will look at both sides of this.

    First I think he is a good defender, not a great defender but a good one. Actually he is not even the best defender on our team, Brandon Rush is, but he is good. He can guard any of the wing positions and in an emergency he can guard a point guard. Under no circumstance though should the guy be forced to guard a power forward like he had to several times this season.

    We all know the drill here. He is a scorer, not a shooter, so therefore he does not spread the floor with the ability to shoot from distance and we all know that to get time in our games you have to be able to do that for our coach.

    He can score going to the basket, he can score on occasion from mid range but no he is not a distance shooter.

    Also although he appeared in 599 less min. than Brandon Rush he shot 168 more free throws, which is not so much a compliment to Dahntay as it is an indictment on Brandon.

    He is an ok rebounder, nothing special by any means but generally he does try and get boards.

    Now onto weaknesses, first and foremost he can tend to be like a bull in a china shop while driving to the basket. He puts on blinders and once he gets in motion he either is going to get to the rim or he is going to knock someone over trying to get there because he sure as hell isn’t going to pass it off. Frankly often times you don’t want him to pass it off as his passing will never be confused with Steve Nash.

    Also sometimes he does tend to dribble the ball high and thus has more turnovers than I think we would like to see.

    He is an oddity though in the overall situation of the Pacers. He is one of many players that Bird has brought in to fill a specific role that Jim does not feel the need to use on a consistent basis. He will go from playing him several min. to not playing him at all to playing him out of position. Just another in the long line of issues that makes you believe that the front office an the coach are not on the same page, yet he extended him so therefore either he totally believes in him or well frankly he is an idiot for extending him if he doesn’t believe in him.

    I thought the signing was great myself and I never had a real problem with the money that was given. If nothing else he is a good solid veteran that can be combined as a trade asset if need be. I personally think we can use a player like him but as long as we have the coach that we do it might be better for all parties to look to move elsewhere.

    Solomon Jones

    I hate to keep beating this drum over and over but I am going to. Well truth be told I don’t hate beating this drum anymore, it needs to be beaten and I feel pretty damn good doing it.

    As long as we have the coach that we have a player like Solomon Jones is not going to be used properly if at all. Solomon is a career backup and will probably be a career journeyman but he could have been put to better use here. First the guy really should be playing power forward not center. Certainly not center against most starters but I still think he would be better even against backup 4’s. However because he does not stretch the floor he either has to take garbage min. every few games at the 5 spot while Mike Dunleavy has to have hand to hand combat with the likes of Paul Millsap & Ersan Ilyasova.

    Don’t get me wrong Solomon is not going to be anything spectacular no matter who the coach is but don’t you think it might have been better to see a few more min. of S. Jones on the floor with Roy or even Troy instead of the Mike & Dahntay frontcourt that we were treated to this season?

    The good for Solomon he is a very active shot blocker. He is a far better shooter and free throw shooter than I ever thought he would be. Also just so you will know that even though he played in 1816 less min. he still only shot 18 less free throws than Brandon Rush.

    His rebounding is pedestrian at best and that is because of is other weakness, he needs more upper body strength. He is not a passer but then not every big man is going to be and frankly his defense is just ok even though he is a good shot blocker.

    Like I said, he would be a decent reserve, one that probably should play in most games but certainly should have played more in games than what we used him because of size issues.

    Luther Head

    Or as I like to call him Ron Mercer light. Jump shooter, pure and simple. Actually it is somewhat surprising to me that O’Brien doesn’t like him more than he does because he can actually stretch the floor. However he also likes to dribble so I have a feeling that this is probably why you see such limited time from him on the floor.

    His defense can at times be embarrassing to say the least and at other times it can be ok, I think it depends on the mood he is in. He does have one of the quickest releases in the game and therefore he can get his shot off about anywhere.

    Not really a lot to say on him. He was a cheap pickup and I doubt seriously he returns to the team. He really didn’t offer much more than what some min. level player from the D league could give you. Seems like a decent person and frankly you would think that he would offer more on the floor than he does but for whatever reason something just doesn’t click here. I have a feeling Luther will be coming to a European city near you in the future.

    Jeff Foster

    Frankly him going down was about the only positive thing that happened this year. Now before you go ape **** on me let me explain. Him being gone forced O’Brien to play Roy, if Jeff had been around Roy would have not gotten the time or experience that he got. We know what Jeff has to offer he is not going to get better or make some dramatic improvement. Roy needs time on the floor and frankly Jeff is standing in the way. Well Jeff isn’t but our coach is. Jeff could easily be put on the floor at the same time as Roy but then that would mean that the saloon door would not get his complimentary 35 + min a night.

    Jeff is what Jeff is. He is a great citizen, a good team mate, a solid pro and every other positive adjective you want to use to describe him. His greatest faults have never truly been his own. He has been asked to play a position and a style by our team over the years that he was not suited for and now his body is probably breaking down because of it.

    Anybody who thinks Jeff Foster is a trade asset this season is in for a big surprise. Unless Jeff announces he is retiring then they might use him to fill in for a trade, but if he is going to play it is going to be as a Pacer. I only hope that he does not come back and impede the progress of Roy but I have a feeling he will.

    However from that standpoint I agree with Bird that Jeff being gone this season did make us a far less physical team than we would have been with him and yes, I would imagine that you might have won 2-3 maybe even 4 more games this season if he were here.

    I really would like to see Jeff hang it up and become an assistant coach (if that is what he wants to do).

    Josh McRoberts
    I will be hard pressed to type this part without having a turrets syndrome attack about O’Brien.

    To me there is absolutely no more clear case that the front office and the coach are not on the same page, yet they extended him.

    All last summer Bird and Morroway fell all over themselves talking about how special Josh was as a player and how they were looking for big things from him. Yet he only makes it into 42 of the games and probably half of that came within the last month and a half of the season.

    Now first let me get this out of the way right up front for some of you who always seem to not understand this part. I am NOT saying Josh McRoberts is a star player nor am I saying he will ever be a star player.

    What I am saying though is that he is a solid backup power forward who should have been playing a hell of a lot sooner and a hell of a lot more considering that our backup center and backup power forward went down with season ending injuries early on.

    He gets inserted into the rotation down towards the end and we go on a significant winning streak. Now no Josh was not the only reason why that occurred, but I assure you he was a part of it and frankly in some games he was a very big part of it. He was a legit big who had skills that should have been used instead of Mike Dunleavy and Dahntay Jones being used at the power forward spots.

    In fact that mere thought of the times I had to wonder which of those two was the four makes me throw up in my mouth just a little every time. BTW, it is not the fault of the two mentioned players; it IS the fault of our narrow minded stubborn spiteful coach.

    I say spiteful because when Josh goes out and busts his *** in a game at L.A. and has at the time a career high with a lot of those points coming in the first half when the game was still in play he insults Josh after the game by saying his game was irrelevant. It wasn’t the fact he insulted his game to me as much as it was he insulted the effort of a player who was trying his best for you.

    Anyway let’s also be clear about another thing, fans in Indiana like Josh. Some people say it’s because he is from here. Well Andre Owens was from here a couple of seasons ago and people didn’t give a crap about him. They like Josh because he is a high energy player who plays above the rim and gives you some breathtaking dunks. No it’s not high brow but at the end of the day basketball is also entertainment beyond just sports so therefore if you can be competitive at least be entertaining. We are a dull boring jump shooting soft losing basketball team. Losing being the key word. Josh is a high flying exciting physical player. If we were winning then you could justify ignoring him but we weren’t winning.

    Josh’s strong points to me are as follows. Outstanding passer, I mean almost point guard good as a passer. Best passing big man we have had since Brad Miller and I have a feeling he is probably better than Brad.

    Reads the floor well and high basketball I.Q. You know those alley oop dunks he gets? Well he creates most of them because he reads the floor, sees an opening and takes it. He sees the floor better than most of our big men do now with even the limited time he has on the floor. He is an improving defender and shooter. Obviously he needs to continue to improve in all areas of the game but he has shows some marked improvements there.

    As to weaknesses, he needs an offense beyond a dunk and a face up jumper from distance. No, he should not focus on three point shooting. God I have to put up with at least another year of this clown and his philosophy’s as a coach.

    I would like to see him develop some form of a back to the basket offense but again with the coach we have there really is no point in it.

    Honestly guys it was criminal that we didn’t use him starting back in December on a regular basis. He can play either the power forward or back up center position but is really best suited for the four spot.

    Often times it’s easy to forget that he is the youngest player on our team and thus he will still be learning and improving.

    If the team were actually running the franchise like they should be next season, just like they should have this season, Josh would be getting the lions share of the back up min. at the 4 & 5 spot and you would never see Dahntay or Mike at the four.

    Part 5 will cover the rookies and wrap everything up.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  2. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Peck For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Oakland, CA
    Posts
    923

    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 4

    I like the write up, and we agree on a lot of points. Your section on Roy and Dante make me think we like the same kind of guy: the kind of guy who will pick a fight even if it is likely that he will lose.

    We diverge on Josh, just a little bit. I think if Josh were a step quicker or a little meaner we would be on the same page, but as it stands now Josh seems soft for his position (to me). I recognize his athleticism and wing skills, but for the love of God, I would pay to see the man get in the paint and fight a bigger and stronger man for a rebound.

    Personally, I think he has to decide between his finesse wing (not shooting) skills and his potential as a big. Looking at his development, they seem mutually exclusive (except for passing). But passing out of the post is a joke without the danger of scoring. Spinning and putting the ball on the hardwood is a mirage without stuffing his shoulders and back into the defender. Alley-oops dunks are hardly a threat without the feint of a 15 footer to keep defenses honest.

    I worry about Josh because I think he is distracted by his skills. I hate to guess at his motivation, but it feels like he is more concerned with his exception skills as a big than making his big skills exceptional (I know the Pacers are no stranger to this phenomenon.) I think he needs to play the post first, and use his talent second, rather than hope his talent makes a new kind of big.

  4. #3
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    23,716

    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 4

    Judicata, I could agree with you except that Josh has discovered (and it was written about a few weeks ago) that the only way he's going to get time is by working the wing aspects. It's stupid, and I think it damages him long-term as a player, but he's a kid and wants to get on the court, and if that's what he has to do to make the coach like him, that's what he'll do.

    Peck, I've been 100% with you the entire way. Keep up the good work.
    Welcome to Pacers Digest! New around here? Here are three tips for making the forum a great place to talk about Pacers basketball.

    • Log in. Even if you want to read instead of post, it's helpful because it lets you:
    • Change your signature options. You can hide all signatures by choosing "Settings" (top right) then "General Settings" (middle left) and unchecking the box "Show Signatures" (in the "Thread Display Options" area).
    • Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

    Enjoy your time at PD!

  5. #4

    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    However the devastatingly bad thing is that we have a coach who does not like post up offense and has little to no patience for Roy.

    Next season I wonder if the same will hold true. If Foster is back and healthy will Jim still go back that way or will he be forced to stick with Roy?

    Roy was on the floor more than half the minutes of the season. Troy's minutes were not that crazy much more than Roy's. And they both played the same number of games. Your points about O'Brien taking Roy out at particular moments is persuasive, but the overall argument isn't. Roy got his minutes.

    Roy ended the season with a +30 on the +/- scale despite playing 2003 minutes for a team that scored 247 points less than its opponents.


    Beginning next season, Roy will be a different commodity than beginning last season. Next year, he'll be a seasoned veteran. He'll still be a traditional center and O'Brien's bias against that (if he has one) will still limit Roy. But O'Brien's preference for veterans will begin to work in Roy's favor.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

  6. #5
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Northside Bias
    Posts
    12,929

    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 4

    Somebody needs to overlay a picture of Roy on the bench with NEVER EVER FORGET. Shoot, you could have a whole series of them, Jimmy in front of a microphone with a Lakers logo behind him, Mike getting pushed around while guarding someone a hundred pounds heavier than him, Murphy stepping out of the way of someone driving to the basket, a halfcourt picture with all 5 Pacers standing around the arc, etc, etc.
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Kegboy For This Useful Post:


  8. #6
    Member CableKC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Jose, CA ( 1123, 6536, 5321 )
    Age
    41
    Posts
    22,943

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Roy was on the floor more than half the minutes of the season. Troy's minutes were not that crazy much more than Roy's. And they both played the same number of games. Your points about O'Brien taking Roy out at particular moments is persuasive, but the overall argument isn't. Roy got his minutes.

    Roy ended the season with a +30 on the +/- scale despite playing 2003 minutes for a team that scored 247 points less than its opponents.
    I agree with you on this. To be fair, just like last season...I think that there have been instances throughout the year where Hibbert's minutes have been dictated by Foul Trouble. However....to Peck's point.....I think that his tendency to foul ( where he makes stupid mistakes as opposed to getting called on "ticky tacky" fouls that aren't his fault ) has gone down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Beginning next season, Roy will be a different commodity than beginning last season. Next year, he'll be a seasoned veteran. He'll still be a traditional center and O'Brien's bias against that (if he has one) will still limit Roy. But O'Brien's preference for veterans will begin to work in Roy's favor.
    I'd like to believe this....but I totally agree with Peck on this. Technically, Hibbert will be more of a season Vet going into his 3rd season. However, as Peck pointed out.....I totatlly think that if Foster wasn't injured......Hibbert wouldn't be getting as many minutes as he did this last season and that we'd be looking more at the # of minutes that he received in his rookie season.

    JO'B would play Vets over less experienced Players....but more importantly, he plays Vets that he is more comfortable with over Vets that he's less comfortable with. IMHO....when given the choice....this means that Foster would get the nod over Hibbert.

    But, again...to be fair....if Foster was healthy this last season....we would have seen far more of a PF/C rotation of Murphy/Foster then Granger/Murphy...especially at the end of the game. This IMHO would have translated into more wins for the Team.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  9. #7

    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote



    I think Jim O’Brien likes Roy the person but is just not a fan of Roy the player or at the very least has a very short tolerance for him and thus is quick to yank and then not return him.

    There's a guy who works/runs the Hoya Report site who was at the game in Washington last week. He asked JOB about Roy and relayed to us that he didn't think the Pacers would trade Roy because after his conversation came away thinking that JOB (and the organization) really liked Roy a lot. But maybe, as you suggest, Peck, its more about liking the person than the player. I'm sorry but I don't think JOB has much use for a guy like Roy because he doesn't care much for center who is more likely to post rather than take jumpshots.

    The interesting thing is that Roy hasn't been asked to play a traditional center role since high school. At Georgetown he was asked to spend half his time outside the paint as well to open the lane. That was a lot to ask for an awkward 7'2 guy who was a bit slow and at the that time COULD NOT RUN TO SAVE HIS LIFE. But Roy did as he was told just to fit in and I think in the end it made him a better player by making him a more all-around player. In some ways his time at Gtown was the perfect preparation for his being coached by O'Brien. And yes some of the things that JOB asked of Roy have helped make Roy more able to thrive in the NBA (like the footspeed aspect that you pointed out). But there is a part of me that would love to see Roy play for a team that requires its center to play a more traditional role. Its been six years since this has happened and with JOB coming back its going to be 7 years.

    It would have been interesting if Bird had not gotten that #17 pick for the 2008 draft. By getting that the Pacers were able to leapfrog Larry Brown and the Bobcats who also had attained a second first round pick at I believe #19. There was some discussion amongst NBA experts and folks in Carolina that Brown really wanted to draft Hibbert (Roy had an impressive workout with them). But when the Pacers got took Roy at #17, Brown settled on bringing in Ajinca with the #19 pick. Ajinca has barely played these past two seasons. He may have been shipped to the NBDL actually. I can only imagine what Brown, as good a teacher in the game as there is, would have done with Roy. Roy is a guy who is so patient and so willing/eager to learn that a natural teacher like Larry Brown would have loved working with him. And without question Brown would have had Roy playing a more traditional role at the center spot.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to KennerLeaguer For This Useful Post:


  11. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    32
    Posts
    28,142

    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 4

    Yeah I think that for the pacers success they need to use Roy more, he should be the focus in offense, I also think that he should get bigger and stronger, the thing is that with this clown of a coach the pacers have, if Troy gets slower for his up tempo offense he would not play as much.

    Regarding Mcbob, I think that he also needs to get bigger and stronger, maybe not as much but strong enough so he does not get push around by bigger PF's, he also needs to get better in shooting the jumper(inside the three point line) if he gets any good at this opposing players are going to have a hard time in guarding him.

  12. #9

    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 4

    I think with Hibbert, without question, he would have seen far less time had Foster been healthy. JOB was forced to play him, and still didn't play him as much as he should. (And for those comparing total minutes played, remember, Troy was injured a few times)

    Josh is interesting, he has really unique skills for a PF. And he has exciting ones too. MY issue with him is at times he seems a bit..clumsy and unsure. Even when he's playing well, there can be an awkwardness to his game. My guess is that is completely a "not an adequat playing time" issue because that aspect seemed to get better with each consecutive game he played. However, some players never lose that "clumsyness" which might hold him back a bit. Still, he's clearly very capable of being a rotational player. No excuses for not playing him.

  13. #10

    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 4

    If I may, let me revise my question to Peck to something more conciliatory.

    But first, let me note my mistake in the earlier post. Hibbert and Murphy started the same number of games. Hibbert played in nine more games than Murphy did.


    The answer to the Foster issue is Solomon Jones and McRoberts. After O'Brien lost Foster, he still had a choice of big players. He chose to give Hibbert the majority of minutes by a wide margin.

    The question is this:

    You say that O'Brien leaned on Murphy heavily while scrimping on Hibbert's opportunities. That horrendous extreme amounts to 309 minutes over the whole season or a bit more than 4 minutes a game for the 72 games Murphy dressed.

    What would have been a tolerable margin? Murphy was seldom in foul trouble (a virtue for which we despise him) while Hibbert sometimes was, plus Murphy plays two positions (albeit badly) and Hibbert only one.

    It seems probable to me that other coaches might have played those two players pretty close to the same number of minutes.

    So again, was a difference of four minutes a game really so horrible?

    And I'm using the word horrible in consideration of Peck's and others' over-the-top expressions of outrage. I'd have liked more Hibbert and less Murphy, too. But I just don't understand the outrage.



    .
    Last edited by Putnam; 04-18-2010 at 05:09 PM. Reason: darn new keyboard!!!
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Putnam For This Useful Post:


  15. #11
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Free Lance!
    Posts
    7,851

    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by KennerLeaguer View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    There's a guy who works/runs the Hoya Report site who was at the game in Washington last week. He asked JOB about Roy and relayed to us that he didn't think the Pacers would trade Roy because after his conversation came away thinking that JOB (and the organization) really liked Roy a lot. But maybe, as you suggest, Peck, its more about liking the person than the player. I'm sorry but I don't think JOB has much use for a guy like Roy because he doesn't care much for center who is more likely to post rather than take jumpshots.

    The interesting thing is that Roy hasn't been asked to play a traditional center role since high school. At Georgetown he was asked to spend half his time outside the paint as well to open the lane. That was a lot to ask for an awkward 7'2 guy who was a bit slow and at the that time COULD NOT RUN TO SAVE HIS LIFE. But Roy did as he was told just to fit in and I think in the end it made him a better player by making him a more all-around player. In some ways his time at Gtown was the perfect preparation for his being coached by O'Brien. And yes some of the things that JOB asked of Roy have helped make Roy more able to thrive in the NBA (like the footspeed aspect that you pointed out). But there is a part of me that would love to see Roy play for a team that requires its center to play a more traditional role. Its been six years since this has happened and with JOB coming back its going to be 7 years.

    It would have been interesting if Bird had not gotten that #17 pick for the 2008 draft. By getting that the Pacers were able to leapfrog Larry Brown and the Bobcats who also had attained a second first round pick at I believe #19. There was some discussion amongst NBA experts and folks in Carolina that Brown really wanted to draft Hibbert (Roy had an impressive workout with them). But when the Pacers got took Roy at #17, Brown settled on bringing in Ajinca with the #19 pick. Ajinca has barely played these past two seasons. He may have been shipped to the NBDL actually. I can only imagine what Brown, as good a teacher in the game as there is, would have done with Roy. Roy is a guy who is so patient and so willing/eager to learn that a natural teacher like Larry Brown would have loved working with him. And without question Brown would have had Roy playing a more traditional role at the center spot.
    That's a fairly depressing post.

    Nothing personal, I like your posts. I just feel bad for Roy that he didn't get that opportunity with Larry Brown.

    Which helps make my next point which is that Roy has really captured the hearts of Pacerland. Here I am, wishing that the guy was on another team, just for his own sake. Because I like him that much.

    I agree with Peck. Roy has become the most important Pacer. I would be more upset to lose Roy than Danny. Roy represents hard work, love of the game, supporting teammates, and, most importantly, just has the ability to entertain and make people happy. That last quality is worth a boatload.

    Peck, I would like you to consider providing some more commentary on the "spiteful" comments you made on JOB. I think it was during the AJ benching that you stated you believe JOB does this kind of stuff just to put it in the face of the fans and his critics. I've noticed several things that seemed that way, to me. Anyway, it was difficult to find other rational explanations.

    In other words, as bad as JOB's philosophical differences are that make guys like Roy not be used to their full, very important potential, I wonder if JOB has other, disfunctional issues that really anger and irritate the fans and followers in Pacerland.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  16. #12
    Member PaceBalls's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Druidia
    Posts
    5,353

    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 4

    Geez Peck, the more I read this series the more despressed I get.

    I have pretty much resigned myself to not having any hope until after Jim, Bird, Troy, Mike and TJ are gone, gods willing, by April 2011...

    At this point I am just hoping they don't give these guys extensions or new contracts, or that Bird doesn't make any more stupid moves in the time he has left.

  17. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Brown County, Indiana
    Posts
    3,156

    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Also NEVER EVER FORGET that on our last game of the season with our one low post offensive player healthy and scoring a career high in points that for the last two min. of the game with our team down by one point that Jim O’Brien thought it would be best to bench Roy and play once again Troy “saloon door” Murphy at the center spot. That’s right, at the center spot.
    That, in a nutshell, sums it all up for me. I have not been a fan of JOB, but I have been cussing him even more ever since that totally unexplainable move.

    The last few minutes of that game epitomizes what was wrong with this season, and why the team didn't do better. I'm not sure I have ever seen a coach so out of touch with the reality of what was going on in a game than we all saw that night.

    During whatever exit interview Bird did with JOB, he should have shown him that clip over and over, each time asking one simple question - WHY? No darn spin, just tell me why!

  18. #14
    Custom User Titleist
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Larry and Frank -- Birds of a Feather!
    Posts
    3,435
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That, in a nutshell, sums it all up for me. I have not been a fan of JOB, but I have been cussing him even more ever since that totally unexplainable move.

    The last few minutes of that game epitomizes what was wrong with this season, and why the team didn't do better. I'm not sure I have ever seen a coach so out of touch with the reality of what was going on in a game than we all saw that night.

    During whatever exit interview Bird did with JOB, he should have shown him that clip over and over, each time asking one simple question - WHY? No darn spin, just tell me why!
    Each time, Jim would have looked Bird in the eye and then calmly stated that having a player on the floor who is a veteran presence who can space the floor in a close game gives our team the best chance to win. And, he would have been dead wrong each time as usual.

    Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. As a true believer, O'Brien would not get the least bit flustered by being made to watch the ending to that game over and over, because he believes the percentages support his decision to not utilize our only player who could have made a real difference down the stretch.

    I am hopeful that I have maintained a semblance of sanity with respect to the Pacers. As I continue to watch and care about their results less and less as O'Brien's tenure continues, I fully expect that the Pacers will have

    1. A team that takes lower quality shots of all kinds than it should due to the insistence of our coach on taking the first open look whether it is truly a quality shot or not.

    2. A team that takes an inordinate number of three point shots whether anyone is hitting them or not because our coach predicates his entire game strategy around it to the point of his strategy being a tragicomedy

    3. A team that places far more value on offense than it does on defense. Harter may have been pushed into "retirement" at this point, but I believe that he came right out and said that he is actually not done coaching, which underscores the lack of commitment to defense of our head coach

    4. A team that is always going to be in transition from a personnel standpoint because it is not possible to be successful at the professional level on a consistent basis without a sound strategy in place under a coach who does not care about teaching and player development (which has occurred here in spite of, not because of, O'Brien, and at a slower pace than it otherwise would have)

    5. A team with constant issues at the point guard position because Magic Johnson is not currently available to play the position for us. The insistence on driving into traffic to create space for the kickout three will plague our point guards as long as they continue to listen to and execute O'Brien's plan because it is easy to defend. That is why O'Brien won't play point guards who can't hit threes, because that is the best way for our point guards to score due to the heavy coverage they face on nearly every possession.

    6. A team that will win 30 to 40 games a season regardless of talent and injuries

Similar Threads

  1. Shorter NBA season? - USA Today article
    By Unclebuck in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 05-01-2009, 07:06 PM
  2. Odd thoughts to wrap up the season
    By Peck in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 04-16-2009, 10:32 PM
  3. Replies: 23
    Last Post: 11-02-2008, 05:39 PM
  4. Bball's Season Ending Post Mortem
    By Bball in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 04-29-2008, 12:35 AM
  5. Chad Ford Grades the NBA
    By drewdawg in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-20-2005, 01:47 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •