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Thread: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

  1. #76

    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by OrganizedConfusion View Post
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    Downtown in its current state would not exist if not for Indiana Sports Corp. Sports were the driving force behind the revitalization of downtown in the 1980's, there's no other way to look at it.
    Well there's no arguing with that, given that "in its current state" includes what's here. But sports alone did not create downtown Indianapolis. It was a very complete plan. Consider one sentence again from the Wikipedia entry on Hudnut:

    Over the sixteen years of his term, more than 30 major building projects took place downtown.
    Five or so of those were sports-related. Hoosier Dome, Market Square Arena, natatorium, IUPUI track stadium and the ice rink at Pan Am plaza.

    The rest (the great majority) were offices, apartment rehabs, medical facilities and other non-sports resources.

    No industry benefitted from sports downtown as much as the restaurants, but ask 50 downtown restaurants what they'd do if they had to choose between the "after the game" crowd and the ordinary lunch crowd of office workers. Most would pick the lunch crowd, which is made of insurance clerks, state bureaucrats, cops and lawyers, corporate realtors, etc.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
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  2. #77
    Member owl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    Kravitz continued...

    "Talk to anybody who has ever worked over there, and they will tell you the place is bloated with self-entitled executives and an owner Herb Simon, who doesn't know how to say no to anybody or anything.

    "For years, Simon was paying nearly $10 million combined annually to a team president, Donnie Walsh, an apprentice in Larry Bird and David Morway to run the franchise. He paid coach Jim O'Brien a healthy sum when nobody else in the league was interested in his services. He paid for a host of useless advisers, including a Republican pollster named Frank Luntz, who rolled in for a few weeks to tell the population that Pacers fans will embrace the team again when they start winning.

    "(Simon could have given me a six-pack of beer and I would have told him that.)

    "Everybody involved in this mess has cut and cut, including the CIVB. What have the Pacers done? Fired Bowser? Show us the books. Show us where all the cost-cutting has occurred. Have team executives been hit with salary cuts and furloughs like the rest of us, or are they just taking slightly less now, only to have that cash deferred until later? How are we looking on country-club memberships and other corporate perks?

    "Let's bring in an independent auditor to look at the books - and I'm not talking about the kind of auditor who has already been through, and was charged with simply determining whether the Pacers' use of funds on the building was proper and legal. I want a third party to look at the way the Pacers do business, and I want him, or her, to tell me whether they've done everything possible to cut costs.

    "Then we'll talk.

    "Look, in the end, it's important for both parties to reach an agreement and for the Pacers to stay. The Pacers need this city and this city needs the Pacers. If the team leaves, the CIB is still stuck with a bill for more than $15 million annually.

    "But the taxpayers are all tapped out. The city is all tapped out. Cash for Clunkers is done. There's nothing left to give, and honestly, even if there was, I'm not sure there's a compelling argument her to recommend a bailout (and I know how much Herb hates that word).

    "This isn't like selling beach volleyball to the people of Fargo. This is basketball in Indiana. That's not YOUR problem or MY problem.

    "That's THEIR problem."

    The majority was typed by my daughter, who types at 90 words/minute.
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  4. #78

    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Supposing you live in Indianapolis or the surrounding counties, where is it you plan to move so you can be far enough away from the tax implications this will cause? Most likely has to be 2 counties away from Indy if the donut counties get involved, and with State getting involved in this, it will most likely drag the donut counties into paying for his. So where you gonna move to? I hear Anderson is a great place to live....LOL!

    The Indy donut counties aren't going to be paying for the Pacers maintance. It will be the Indy tax payers footing the bill.

    FYI, sanity prevailed for not every donut county, as you refer to them as, buckled to Indianapolis-Marion County to help pay for the Colts stadium.

  5. #79
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    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Can we get Kravitz Sunday column. Will it be available later
    Here you go. :-)
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  7. #80

    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    The majority was typed by my daughter, who types at 90 words/minute.
    Give our thanks and graditude to your daughter. I, for one, greatly appreciated her taking her time to do it!

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  9. #81
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    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    If the CIB stands up to the Pacers then bravo.

    I've been a Pacer fan most of my life but their demands are outrageous.

    Time for Bird and company to take a pay cut. If all the sweetheart deals ended, they'd come up with 15 million easily.

  10. #82
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    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Swingman View Post
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    If the CIB stands up to the Pacers then bravo.

    I've been a Pacer fan most of my life but their demands are outrageous.

    Time for Bird and company to take a pay cut. If all the sweetheart deals ended, they'd come up with 15 million easily.
    It's not going to happen, but this is really the right thing to do.

    It's a sad case when Jamaal Tinsley, who doesn't even live here anymore, is being paid half that amount by the Pacers...while IPS teachers are getting cut. I know a really good young teacher who lost his job.

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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryder View Post
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    Stop referencing the "sweetheart deal" the Colts negotiated. That is an independent and situation that is not related to the facts at hand. This negotiation is between the CIB and the Pacers; not the Colts, CIB, and Pacers...
    Why? If, as Kravitz says, it is appropriate to examine the Pacers' books to find out why they are losing money, why is it not appropriate to hold the CIB responsible for their massive blunder that is not only harming the Pacers but is pretty much responsible for the harm to every other thing they are supposed to be handling?
    BillS

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  13. #84
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    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    Kravitz cont...

    If a basketball franchise in Indiana can't make it, especially in a jewel of a new building that is the envy of the league, that is a YOU problem, and not an US problem. If you lose money 28 of 30 years, including every year with near sell-outs at a new building through the early 2000s, that says everything about your business inefficiencies and ineptitude and nothing about the tax-payers.
    yes those 2 years they made money was when they sold out. Reading this whole article makes me so angry

  14. #85
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    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    ". He paid coach Jim O'Brien a healthy sum when nobody else in the league was interested in his services.
    That is an idiotic statement. What does Bob suggest, not paying a coach at all, maybe accepting volunteers. JOB's contract is very average.


    Thanks Owl -

    Reading that almost makes me say, fine, let the Pacers move, who cares, maybe the city doesn't, they can do better elsewhere.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 04-20-2010 at 09:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    That is an idiotic statement. What does Bob suggest, not paying a coach at all, maybe accepting volunteers. JOB's contract is very average.


    Thanks Owl -

    Reading that almost makes me say, fine, let the Pacers move, who cares, maybe the city doesn't, they can do better elsewhere.
    At this point, it seems that Bob is saying that the Pacers have the wrong coach and that they overpaid for a coach that probably would not be coaching professionally today if the Pacers were not employing him, which may well be true.

    However, the Pacers are likely giving O'B what they thought they had to in light of their situation, and not a penny more, with the only concern being the extension through next year. Perhaps the extension was for the best because of what is going on now, and the franchise realized that negotiations with the CIB would very likely not go well enough to justify making a move towards progressing the franchise forward from a coaching standpoint until after the negotiations conclude, and in reality probably not until everyone from Bird down to TJ have their contracts expire after this season. That would leave whoever is in charge of the franchise at that point, if anyone actually is (it could just fold if it is simply a cold business decision), in a position to be able to recreate the franchise in whatever way they see fit and wherever that may be.

  17. #87

    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    I think it would be a disaster if the Pacers left. Regardless of the situation, nothing makes a city look worse than a pro team leaving.

    The NBA needs to figure out a way to get rid of these ridiculous guaranteed contracts. That would solve a lot of problems for the teams. I know it probably will never happen though unfortunately...

  18. #88

    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    maybe the city doesn't, they can do better elsewhere.

    So if the City doesn't come up with the money, it means they don't care? That's a poor comment to have made. The City has other obligations for their tax monies that are "far more important" than paying the maintance on Conseco for a billionaire owner. They have to work within the budget of the monies they have, and in order to get the 15 mil it's got to come in the form of new tax/taxes. Simon is wanting a bailout at the taxpayers expense. Sorry, the taxpayers don't owe it to him. Why increase or create new taxes for the residents to save him from paying 15 mil. Conseco holds 17,000 people and a good % of those who go to the games aren't even from Marion county, but Pacer fans want Marion county residents to have to pay for it. Not being able to pay and not wanting to pay is 2 different things.

  19. #89
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    I wish I had the articles to back this up, but I remember way back when that the Pacers made a big deal about getting control of the Fieldhouse. Sure, they talked about Suites and club seats, but they said it was imperative that they were responsible for operating the Fieldhouse, and the big reason they lost money at MSA was they didn't have that control.

    That's what really pisses me off about this. Maybe I would be more sympathetic to their plight if I didn't remember that so vividly.
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    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    Check out the Colts deal on their stadium. The Pacers should have a similar deal.

  22. #91
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    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    I wish people would quit trying to tie the Colts into this. Different times, different teams. Anything bad about the Colts' deal is crying over spilled milk.

    The Pacers have a sweet deal now.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  24. #92

    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    I live in Kansas City and I don't know how the city could support 3 major sports teams.

    http://www.kansascity.com/2010/04/17...s-thunder.html

    "The message from research is clear: Kansas City has no business even considering another team. There are a number of ways to do this.
    American City Business Journals did a study that showed the Kansas City regionís total personal income is $57 billion short of whatís needed to support the teams we already have.
    The study included 82 markets in the United States and Canada, and just four were more overextended. Even worse for Kansas City, the study only factored football, baseball, basketball, hockey and soccer, leaving out Kansas Speedway and the Big 12 and other events that demand the areaís attention and money."



  25. #93

    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    The Pacers and most of the NBA's problem is those guaranteed contracts. Tinsley, Artest and Jackson have probably cost the Pacers 50 million dollars. Any team should be able to buy out a contract for a %. If that player signs with another team before the original contract is up, the original team should get paid back by the new team for the years still remaining. There are franchises that will never lose money, NY has been the king of bad contracts. Yet, they have a deal with cable that pays them multi- millions of dollars each year. They paid the luxury tax for years and still made money.

    I also wonder how many years the Pacers have paid bonuses to ownership to create this loss year after year. Cooking the books legally. Ownership must pay 57% of basketball income to players. If a bonus/salary was paid to ownership this would be a way to create a loss. If the Pacers have borrowed 200M and are paying interest who is that interest going to. Obviously the Simons have the capability to loan that money to themselves since it has been spread out over 30 years. Have they not been able to repay some of it back? I think the books are cooked and the taxpayers are going to get the red hot poker if the city gives in.
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
    Darnell Hillman (Speaking of former teammate Roger Brown)

  26. #94
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    It'd have to be a heck of a bonus to make a dent in the percentages between players/owners. Just take that the payroll is (say) $65M for players, every $1M in bonuses to management doesn't even shift the percentage by .8%. You'd be talking $4M or $5M before things get noticed that a single franchise was skewing that heavily, and I think the local media would have found out about that much in bonuses being paid.

    Kravitz focuses on the actual salaries, which are high enough, and there is a point there, I suppose. But even "Rattle Their Cages Bob" isn't talking about cooked books or other forms of fraudulent activity. Why don't we assume that no one is trying to cheat anyone and look for the real problems without attributing malice to it? Otherwise, this isgoing to go back to the "Simons are the most evil people in Indianapolis" theme, and I'll start burning again.
    BillS

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  27. #95
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    I had a good chuckle over this, it's nonsense and even Bob knows it

    1. bringing up the Colts deal ?? why not, it's not like there are other franchise comparalbe around and it it THAT deal that got the CIB in to trouble

    2. Pacers losses are not mentioned by the Pacers, nor asked for support, nothing, onbly the cost of the stadium.
    Outside the tax on ticket sales (only for the Pacers, COlts are excempt) i.e op top of that, they pay an additional 15 milion dollars to run the building (total cost per year about 25-30 million) and it is on top of the amount they paid to GET the building

    Let's face it, with the taxes paid by the Pacers over the past 11 years most of the cost of the building have been repaid to the state.
    In that time the Pacers have paid all the cost.
    The city owns the building.

    it is like you paying rent, mortgage and maintenance for a bulding owned by your neighbour.

    strange none of you sees that
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  29. #96
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    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    I had a good chuckle over this, it's nonsense and even Bob knows it

    1. bringing up the Colts deal ?? why not, it's not like there are other franchise comparalbe around and it it THAT deal that got the CIB in to trouble

    2. Pacers losses are not mentioned by the Pacers, nor asked for support, nothing, onbly the cost of the stadium.
    Outside the tax on ticket sales (only for the Pacers, COlts are excempt) i.e op top of that, they pay an additional 15 milion dollars to run the building (total cost per year about 25-30 million) and it is on top of the amount they paid to GET the building

    Let's face it, with the taxes paid by the Pacers over the past 11 years most of the cost of the building have been repaid to the state.
    In that time the Pacers have paid all the cost.
    The city owns the building.

    it is like you paying rent, mortgage and maintenance for a bulding owned by your neighbour.

    strange none of you sees that
    I'd like to see some figures that back that up. I don't believe that the Pacers have come anywhere close to repaying for the building. Btw, everyone pays taxes on their building and it usually doesn't go towards your mortgage or in the Pacer's case, towards fake ownership of Conseco. I guess different rules for different folks.

    In what fantasy land does someone get to have someone else pay all the building expenses while reaping all the profits? That's exactly what the Pacers want and no one has explained how that's fair.
    Last edited by Swingman; 04-20-2010 at 07:17 PM.

  30. #97

    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    Kravitz continued...

    "Talk to anybody who has ever worked over there, and they will tell you the place is bloated with self-entitled executives and an owner Herb Simon, who doesn't know how to say no to anybody or anything.
    Simon does know how to say no to at least one thing. At the next-to-the-last game, I asked him for an autograph and he waved me off. Guess he thought I was going to try to make a buck by selling his signature on e-bay!

  31. #98
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Swingman View Post
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    I'd like to see some figures that back that up. I don't believe that the Pacers have come anywhere close to repaying for the building. Btw, everyone pays taxes on their building and it usually doesn't go towards your mortgage or in the Pacer's case, towards fake ownership of Conseco. I guess different rules for different folks.

    In what fantasy land does someone get to have someone else pay all the building expenses while reaping all the profits? That's exactly what the Pacers want and no one has explained how that's fair.
    He's not talking about property taxes, he's talking about the ticket taxes. I don't pay ticket taxes on any property I own, do you? I know somewhere here someone posted the calculation for the amount of money generated by CFH ticket taxes and compared it to the cost of the building. Considering those ticket taxes would not have come in at all if the building wasn't running, I think it is perfectly right and proper to use that as a value vs. the cost of the building.

    It is also very common for a landloard (in this case, the CIB, because they do in fact own the building) to pay for maintenance and even certain utilities and other upkeep expenses (building management, etc.) when a business leases space. The landlord neither gets nor expects to get any % of profits from the business the lessee is engaged in.

    The tangled $$ chain here is because in lieu of rent the Pacers are paying all of those expenses. The Pacers are saying they believe those costs should be borne by the landlord without an increase in rent. The city is saying that there needs to be income in the form of something in exchange - rent is not an option, maybe since it isn't able to be renegotiated per the contract, but obviously other things (like % of revenue from non-basketball operations) are.

    Bottom line is that as a business, it is the obligation of the Pacers to ask for the sky. It is the obligation of the landlord to try not to give it to them. What we end up with is why it is called negotiation.
    BillS

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  33. #99

    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    The landlord neither gets nor expects to get any % of profits from the business the lessee is engaged in.

    I don't know if that's true today, but years ago I was affiliated with a business that paid a % of sales to one of the major shopping malls in Indianapolis. I don't recall whether it was based on total gross sales or on a % of sales over X amount.

  34. #100
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star Editorial: City should stand up to Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    It is also very common for a landloard (in this case, the CIB, because they do in fact own the building) to pay for maintenance and even certain utilities and other upkeep expenses (building management, etc.) when a business leases space. The landlord neither gets nor expects to get any % of profits from the business the lessee is engaged in.
    Bill,
    How many landlords lease a bldng for 1.00 per year and pay maintenance and utilities?

    And that 15M they are asking for included things like advertising and various salaries.

    I could use a new building for my business. Where do I find these landlords paying these type of expenses, utilities, maintenance, etc. and charging 1.00 per year for the lease?
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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