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Thread: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    Peck, I haven't had a chance to fully digest your post.

    Yet your analysis on Troy's defense last night was spot on. There were probably 5 occasions where he just laid the red carpet down for McGee or Blatche to do what they want in the lane.

    I haven't watched a full Pacers game in quite some time. But being at a game, at center court, in the 10th row I fully realized how little the Pacers value the ball, and how many offensive possessions they squander out of simple carelessness.

    Roy Hibbert though, looked like an All-Star last night. His development has been a thing of beauty.

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  3. #27
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    Quote Originally Posted by thewholefnshow31 View Post
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    What has made me question Bird is the fact that he has not drafted or traded for guys that fit the system. Tyler Hansbrough does not spread the court at all. His range is very limited and it is nonexistent in three point land. Hibbert does not spread the court. TJ could not hit a three if his life depended on it. D Jones is a good defensive player, but again he does not shoot the three well. None of these guy fits the system O'Brien has in place. Why would you draft people who do not fit the system?
    My answer to this so far has been "Because Bird doesn't believe in Obie's system either and is just passing time until we get rid of the $42mil in stupid contracts that we're paying right now."

    But that's when I thought Obie's extension was unguaranteed.
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  4. #28
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    My answer to this so far has been "Because Bird doesn't believe in Obie's system either and is just passing time until we get rid of the $42mil in stupid contracts that we're paying right now."

    But that's when I thought Obie's extension was unguaranteed.
    So with the extension being guaranteed it makes all of this look worse. Obviously Bird disagrees with the system becuase he has brought in guys who do not fit it at all. Yet, he then proceeds to give the guy who runs the system he does not like a guaranteed extension. What sense does that make?

    I freely know that guys like Bird know more about basketball then I ever will, but to me common sense says not to do what Bird did. Common sense would say give JOB a non-guaranteed extension and if he cannot turn it around you fire him and move on and find someone who fits the talent you have in place. Either that or you say this is our coach and I am going to give him guys who fit his system.

    I am just left baffled over this.

  5. #29

    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    After hearing the worst possible news of everything from Larry today. I almost expect them to keep Jim for another 3 years after next and resign Troy to a Jeff Foster like contract after next season. I have pretty much lost any hope in Larry's direction for this team.

    This ship of fools can sail away from me.

  6. #30
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    Loved it!!!
    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nce-stephenson
    "But, first, let us now praise famous moments, because something happened Tuesday night in Indianapolis that you can watch a lifetimeís worth of professional basketball and never see again. There was a brief, and very decisive, and altogether unprecedented, outburst of genuine officiating, and it was directed at the best player in the world, and that, my dear young person, simply is not done."

  7. #31
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    [QUOTE=owl;985291]After saying all that, do you really believe this team with another coach is a PLAYOFF team?
    As frustrating as OB might be, is this a playoff team? I think anyone would say no.
    This is a team devoid of talent or the talent is too young.
    QUOTE]


    You know, I've thought about this question and frankly I don't have a real answer for you. At least one that is not acceptable anyway without sounding like a cop out.

    But I guess my answer is, maybe but probably not.

    I think you have to compare it to the teams that got to 8 and say with a differant coach would we be better.

    Certainly I think we would have played better but with the injuries that occured and as you said lack of true talent I have to wonder if we could not have been as good as the Bulls.

    Their top tier talent is better than ours (Rose is better than Granger, Noah is better than Roy and Kirk is better than Brandon) but overall I'm not sure that we don't at least match out talent wise. I don't think much of their coach either.

    Let's say Scott Skiles was our coach do I think it would matter? Well, hell yes if Skiles were the coach then our defense would be a tough as nails that were formed with steel so it would matter.

    ok, I'm rambling here.

    I think what I thought at the beginning of last season was that we were still a player or two away from being real playoff contenders. However I thought we would be in every or at least the majority of every game.

    I do think if we had a hard nosed defensive coach who did not allow the players to run amuk on offense that we would have been much better and maybe a playoff team.

    Sorry this wasn't really much of an answer.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    I think that with a different coach the pacers could have been in the playoffs, a lot of games were lost by the fact the coach was playing "small ball" even when he knew that the team was getting F****.

    I disagree with the claim that because some players were injured this team did not win as many games, just look at a team like Milwaukee who's best player was out for the season and second best player got hurt in the end.

    Another example is the Bulls, they traded two big pieces (TT and Salmons)to create cap space, Rose, Noah, Deng and Hinrich were hurt most of the time and they were still able to win more games than the pacers and get into the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    In terms of getting more wins...

    We could have gotten the same number of wins if we'd played the kids a ton more. So it's not just the number of wins that makes me criticize JoB, but the way we got them.
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  11. #34
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    In terms of getting more wins...

    We could have gotten the same number of wins if we'd played the kids a ton more. So it's not just the number of wins that makes me criticize JoB, but the way we got them.
    Exactly right!!!!!!!!!!


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    In terms of getting more wins...

    We could have gotten the same number of wins if we'd played the kids a ton more. So it's not just the number of wins that makes me criticize JoB, but the way we got them.
    Overall yeah looking back on it, yes probably. But it isn't fair to look at it that way. Hindsight is 20/20. If playing the veterans at the expense of the young guys got us into the playoffs then it would have been worth it (that is not my point), my point is on December 10th for example you don't know what is going to happen from then until January 1st when the season was lost.

    if you would have told O'Brien at the beginning of the season that whether you play the youngsters or not the team will win 32 games - then he would have played the youngsters in theory


    Sort of like in school if you would have known before the test that whether you study or not you would get the same exact grade, then you wouldn't have wasted your time studying. But you didn't know that before hand.


    Hope that makes some sense.

    If Jimmy thought Price, Rush, Danny, Josh, Roy would get the pacers the most wins then he would have played those guys. Jim thinks that Troy and the vets gave the team the best chance of winning this past season. Obviously many of you don't agree with that, but that isn't the point we are discussing here
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 04-19-2010 at 01:47 PM.

  13. #36
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Overall yeah looking back on it, yes probably. But it isn't fair to look at it that way. Hindsight is 20/20. If playing the veterans at the expense of the young guys got us into the playoffs then it would have been worth it (that is not my point), my point is on December 10th for example you don't know what is going to happen from then until January 1st when the season was lost.

    if you would have told O'Brien at the beginning of the season that whether you play the youngsters or not the team will win 32 games - then he would have played the youngsters in theory

    Sort of like in school if you would have known before the test that whether you study or not you would get the same exact grade, then you wouldn't have wasted your time studying. But you didn't know that before hand.

    Hope that makes some sense.

    If Jimmy thought Price, Rush, Danny, Josh, Roy would get the pacers the most wins then he would have played those guys. Jim thinks that Troy and the vets gave the team the best chance of winning this past season. Obviously many of you don't agree with that, but that isn't the point we are discussing here
    I agree with your notion that JO'B should choose to play the lineup that he feels that he should use to win games....as everyone said before....that's the goal of TPTB...to make it to the Playoffs.

    At what point would we have crossed when the legit question can be asked to play the Vets Vs. the Younger Players?

    But this very question should be revisited the second that we were bounced out of the Playoff contention. When was that and how many games? I don't know...but I'm guessing that we were out of it by Mid-March....either way...with a good # of games left to play ( unfortunately much earlier compared to previous years ).
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  14. #37
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Overall yeah looking back on it, yes probably. But it isn't fair to look at it that way. Hindsight is 20/20.
    UB, I have tons of respect for you. I love reading your posts, and have enjoyed your willingness to buck the trend here on the Digest of throwing Obie under the bus for every decision.

    But on this one, my friend, you are off your rocker.

    This isn't hindsight. I've been saying this again and again for the past two years. So have lots of other people. To have you finally switch sides in the end and then say "But who could have predicted such a thing?" makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

    Playing the veterans doesn't amount to more wins than playing the kids! News at 11!

    Give me a break.
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  16. #38
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    Guys I know that U.B. loves to be the contrarian and we need that, but let's all be sure to give credit where credit is due here. He just gave a post in the beginning of this where he criticized O'Brien without a caveat of "oh but" in it.

    So those of you that he has been driving crazy this year, believe me you have driven him crazy as well, need to give him a standing ovation for letting it out.

    In fact even though the team isn't getting one I will give U.B a dancing fruit salute.



    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  17. #39
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    UB, I have tons of respect for you. I love reading your posts, and have enjoyed your willingness to buck the trend here on the Digest of throwing Obie under the bus for every decision.

    But on this one, my friend, you are off your rocker.

    This isn't hindsight. I've been saying this again and again for the past two years. So have lots of other people. To have you finally switch sides in the end and then say "But who could have predicted such a thing?" makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

    Playing the veterans doesn't amount to more wins than playing the kids! News at 11!

    Give me a break.
    You are missing my point. I know many of you have said for years that the young guys need to play.

    Let me quote you exactly.

    "We could have gotten the same number of wins if we'd played the kids a ton more. So it's not just the number of wins that makes me criticize JoB, but the way we got them"

    I was specifically responding to your point in a narrow way. Jim O'Brien thought that the team would get more wins playing the veterans. I know you don't agree, we aren't discussing whether we think the vets or the youngsters would get more wins, we were discussing your assertion that either way we get the exact same number of wins, so assuming that is true and if you would have told Jim O'Brien with a 100% degree of certainty that playing Price, Josh .....would get as many wins as the vets, he would have changed his lineups. But how can anyone know that before hand, it is impossible. I tried to make my point using real world examples of this.

    Anthem - you are acting like or maybe even suggesting that Jim O'Brien knew or should have known that playing the youngsters would have netted the team the same result. If you told Jim that if he played a 12 year old kid would get the Pacers into the playoffs, he would play him
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 06-10-2010 at 01:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    And I still disagree with you. That's why we were so mad after the infamous 5 game winning streak.

    Before it, he was using his lineups and getting negative results from it. Out of circumstance he has to change the lineup up, gets the 5 game winning streak, and then he changed back to the original lineup.

    Evidence that he would have played the younger players if he knew, just isn't there. Matter of fact, all the evidence available shows he would do the opposite.

    When during the season did you realize that the playoffs weren't going to be in the Pacers future? As soon as you reached that point, or I guess when JOb reached that point, the mindset should have changed with it.

    But no. We still had Mike/Dahantay playing the four, alongside Murph at the 5.


    JOb is going to play who he wants, regardless of how many wins he gets out of it, because he's so damn stubborn he thinks that his way is the ONLY way.

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  21. #41
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    First of all, it was only due to sheer lack of spirit at this point that I didn't start a thread much like this, but with the title that was running through my mind the final couple of weeks...

    MERCY KILLING

    This season needed to be put out of it's misery and finally has.


    Second of all, let's pull up the season projections thread. I believe at the time people were still defending JOB (and some still are) and my response was that the bar is set kinda low - just win 37-38 games to keep your job. Let the coaching do the talking. You got the defensive help you needed, Dun is returning from injury, Rush and Roy are a year older, nothing about the team is really worse.

    So with a similar level of talent all you've got to do to keep your job is get the guys you've coached for 1-2 years to start running your system better, just enough to eek out 2-3 more wins max.

    WAS THAT REALLY TOO MUCH TO ASK?

    And he failed. IMO, this debate is already over. I didn't hear JOB defenders back in October/Nov saying "come on man, there is no way they will win 38 games, they'll probably win 32 in fact".

    This isn't hindsight, this was foresight, this was a semi pre-agreed benchmark by which the debate over his coaching skills could be resolved. What happens when he misses the mark? His defenders just move the mark down a bit more and say "just give him one more teeny, tiny chance, it won't hurt nothing".

    FOUR YEARS OF DANNY GRANGER'S CAREER is being spent on JOB.

    You didn't make Reggie deal with 4 years of Bob Hill or Isiah Thomas, and they made the playoffs.



    The team and Larry aren't just playing it conservative, they are playing it with their heads in the sand at this point. I HATE rushing into deals, but if Troy is just killing your defense this bad or TJ is on the verge of a long benching, then cut your losses instead of holding out for the golden goose.

    How do you measure the cost of keeping these guys around? That's a lot of lost value in terms of what the team was because they were kept, all in the name of getting a fair deal later. Maybe the lost value from trading sooner (ie, Troy for Z and late 1st round pick without another player) is recouped in the steady revenue stream of an improved team dynamic (addition by subtraction).



    I hate to say it, but I totally agree with Peck on the most important sentiment of all. For me this WAS the worst, most discouraging, and unpleasant season I've ever had as a Pacers fan.

    At least in 97 I had the joy that Jax was brought back after only 1/2 a season in Denver and that the core players in place had just been an ECF caliber team.

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  23. #42
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    if you would have told O'Brien at the beginning of the season that whether you play the youngsters or not the team will win 32 games - then he would have played the youngsters in theory
    No, and we have proof. Rasho playing a chunk of minutes in his final game as a Pacer, Troy playing huge minutes in a meaningless game vs WSH in an attempt to win the game and prove something to no one.

    He played the kind of "feeler" minutes with the kids in the final 2 weeks that he should have been doing mid-DEC or mid-JAN at the latest. You EXPLORE your options when faced with challenges.

    Plus you help yourself. You are going to need to coach the team next year and win games next year too. You can't just coach for today. I mean if you play to win the game then why not just play Danny 48 minutes every game or until he's about to collapse?

    Don't coaches take players out with foul trouble or after they play a lot of minutes early on? Sure they do. Why? TO SAVE THEM FOR LATER. To be competitive now, BUT ALSO LATER.

    And this logic applies on a more macro scale. Sure, it's important to try to win games in DEC or even JAN/FEB if you can still see the goal in reach.

    But a smart "loser" knows that while he might lose one battle he can pull his resources and reallocate them toward the next battle, possibly even getting an advantage over his opponent by doing so.

    JOB just kept on marching forward like there was no tomorrow, like win or lose all he had to live for was the current season, the current game, the current quarter.

    That's a very short-sighted approach. And as a coach of a developing, young team it's a disaster of a mismatch, thus the onus does fall to Bird too.

    Say you are in 25th in the race with 20 laps to go. Do you drive as hard as possible for 24th, only to wreck the car and cost you an entry in the next race because money is tight, or do you just use those final laps to play with the settings and get a feel for what might work better next race, safely bringing the car to the finish in 25th or 26th?

    I know what a friend of mine did with his small time team - they milked it home and tried again next week, avoiding the catastrophic failure in the name of a virtually meaningless goal. They didn't pull it in the pits and quit, they just ran the rest of the race smart.

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  25. #43

    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    The team and Larry aren't just playing it conservative, they are playing it with their heads in the sand at this point. I HATE rushing into deals, but if Troy is just killing your defense this bad or TJ is on the verge of a long benching, then cut your losses instead of holding out for the golden goose.

    How do you measure the cost of keeping these guys around? That's a lot of lost value in terms of what the team was because they were kept, all in the name of getting a fair deal later. Maybe the lost value from trading sooner (ie, Troy for Z and late 1st round pick without another player) is recouped in the steady revenue stream of an improved team dynamic (addition by subtraction).
    You are assuming Bird and the front office are somewhat competent, which I am having serious doubts about. Especially after the most recent press conferance, where Bird tells us that he thinks Troy Murphy was our best player this year... And then his ringing endorsement of his pal Jimmy...

    I don't think things are ever going to get better until we get Bird and Jimmy out of here. I am even questioning Morway as well. I mean how the hell can anyone think Troy Murphy was our best player this year?? Let alone Larry Freakin Bird... what games are they watching?

  26. #44
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I was specifically responding to your point in a narrow way. Jim O'Brien thought that the team would get more wins playing the veterans.
    I get what you're saying here, UB. You are surely right. It makes logical sense that JOB would do what he thought would produce the most wins. I'm not sure if anyone is arguing that JOB intentionally put a losing lineup out there.

    What I am reading is that most people are upset that JOB could not see that playing the young guys might result in a higher level of play. I see people (not every JOB critic for sure, but some) making coherent cases that there were many clues JOB could have picked up on that would have allowed him to justify moving away from the vets a bit. Basically the argument seems to be "If we could see it, why can't he?" Most folks are simply frustrated about the fact that, as they see it, the coach stubbornly clung to a losing strategy for most of the season.
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  27. #45
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Before it, he was using his lineups and getting negative results from it. Out of circumstance he has to change the lineup up, gets the 5 game winning streak, and then he changed back to the original lineup.
    I thought the "5 game winning streak" and all the arguments regarding the streak were blown out of the water by the 10-2 stretch in March and April.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I thought the "5 game winning streak" and all the arguments regarding the streak were blown out of the water by the 10-2 stretch in March and April.
    And I thought the worst record since the 80s blew away any notion that JOb knew what he was doing.

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  30. #47
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    Actually I thought listening to what O'Brien said and watching how he coached blew away any notion that he could coach this team....

    EDIT: It certainly killed any interest I have in watching the team with him coaching.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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