View Poll Results: Who is right on this issue?

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  • Mike is. We need to tank.

    44 68.75%
  • TMJ31 is. Have some pride and win.

    6 9.38%
  • Neither is. Either way this is not the solution.

    3 4.69%
  • Don't care. I've had enough with all this.

    11 17.19%
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Thread: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

  1. #51
    Funk Seoul Brother Frostwolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    If we weren't true of the Pacers, we wouldn't even be here right now. I am 100% behind getting the best possible chance for a top 3 pick.

    Hell, I've only lived in Australia and Korea, where no-one else supports them and they don't even come on national TV.

    It's all good to stick by your principles, I truly respect what you believe in (I would too, if this team had more talent but was a bunch of underachievers). But please don't call out others or get outraged because they don't share the same values as you.

    I believe everyone here is a true Pacers fan, and that holds regardless of whatever they believe is best for the team to get better.

  2. #52
    Member ksuttonjr76's Avatar
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by millertime90 View Post
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    took the board two years to finally realize the value of tanking. wow. time and time again i had to defend my stance that high draft picks is how you become a contender, and finally, the board seems to agree! albeit, probably too late :-(
    The past two seasons, the team was balling. I would have never thought that the team would have gotten worse. Here's the irony of this whole season...a 5 game improvement would have put us in the playoff hunt season.

  3. #53
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    The past two seasons, the team was balling. I would have never thought that the team would have gotten worse. Here's the irony of this whole season...a 5 game improvement would have put us in the playoff hunt season.
    Yeah, but if we were finishing the season only a couple of games outside of the playoffs looking in, people would still be crying tank. There is no middle ground here. Heck, the past two seasons we were in the thick of it, people were still crying tank.

    This is getting old. I'm glad Roy had a good game today. At least I have that to hang onto. No one cares apparently about his progress, because this whole board keeps fighting over tanking or not. You all are forgetting that this guy is part of the core of this team going forward, and for him to contribute like he has this season, especially tonight is really disturbing.

    Don't forget that Roy is a "young guy" too.

  4. #54
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    Yeah, but if we were finishing the season only a couple of games outside of the playoffs looking in, people would still be crying tank. There is no middle ground here. Heck, the past two seasons we were in the thick of it, people were still crying tank.

    This is getting old. I'm glad Roy had a good game today. At least I have that to hang onto. No one cares apparently about his progress, because this whole board keeps fighting over tanking or not. You all are forgetting that this guy is part of the core of this team going forward, and for him to contribute like he has this season, especially tonight is really disturbing.

    Don't forget that Roy is a "young guy" too.
    The only thing that I was looking for this season was progression, and it didn't happen. The ONLY reason that I'm supporting losing is because I'm taking on the attitude of "Since we're doing so horrible this year might as well get something for it.". I don't mind not making the playoffs, if there was incremental progression ala Atlanta Hawks.

  5. #55
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    The only thing that I was looking for this season was progression, and it didn't happen. The ONLY reason that I'm supporting losing is because I'm taking on the attitude of "Since we're doing so horrible this year might as well get something for it.". I don't mind not making the playoffs, if there was incremental progression ala Atlanta Hawks.
    What about Hibbert? As far as I know he has progressed...

  6. #56
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    What about Hibbert? As far as I know he has progressed...
    In the W/L columns. Hibbert and Rush is like the lone shining stars from this season. I've been impressed with Hibbert and Rush all season, and never thought they were bad players. Unlike some people who think that they're a dime a dozen.

  7. #57
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    What about Hibbert? As far as I know he has progressed...
    Exactly. And we found a great point guard in Price, and he, Roy and Rush play very well together. Danny took a step back because of injury but now he's getting back to form. Even Dunleavy has been looking a little better lately. I see all kinds of progress in this team.

  8. #58

    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by TMJ31 View Post
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    Seriously?

    SERIOUSLY!?

    You call yourself a Pacers fan? Then you root for them to WIN THE GAMES THEY PLAY.

    I am sorry but this current sentiment of just losing every game we possible can is the most counter-intuitive, hypocritical thing I have seen on this board in my entire time here.
    yeh, i call myself a fan. what is more counter-intuitive- winning meaningless games? (yes, there are those because we are playing them right now) and scoring ourselves a mid-pick which gives a far greater chance at getting an ok player or getting a shot at someone who can really help us?
    i would want the pacers to win every game at this stage if the pick were not ours to use like the knicks. but it IS our pick and i want a good one.
    we have a shot at getting someone who can step in and help us immediately (which we desperately need).
    i don't want a guy who might turn into a decent rotational player in 4-5 years. i am not some guy who will say 5 years down the line "hey, do you remember that year when we could have had so and so but we won those meaningless games and got that guy who played ok for us for a couple of years? i sure am glad we won those games back then because it has helped us so much"
    we need talent and the draft is the only way we get any for the time being.

  9. #59
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Hibbert is the only positive I see from this season... sure would be nice to see AJ progress, but we already know what we have in him so we better put him back on the bench.

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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    In the W/L columns. Hibbert and Rush is like the lone shining stars from this season. I've been impressed with Hibbert and Rush all season, and never thought they were bad players. Unlike some people who think that they're a dime a dozen.
    There isn't a team in the league that doesn't have at least 2-3 players on the level of Rush or Hibbert. Bottom line is the difference between the bad teams and the really good ones doesn't come from players like Hibbert and Rush.

  11. #61
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    There isn't a team in the league that doesn't have at least 2-3 players on the level of Rush or Hibbert. Bottom line is the difference between the bad teams and the really good ones doesn't come from players like Hibbert and Rush.
    So we need one more player on the level of Hibbert and Rush and one more all-star player then we're set, huh? Based on your logic, we're over halfway to having a good team.

  12. #62

    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    There isn't a team in the league that doesn't have at least 2-3 players on the level of Rush or Hibbert. Bottom line is the difference between the bad teams and the really good ones doesn't come from players like Hibbert and Rush.
    I disagree.

    I don't think you need superstars..a Kobe, Lebron, Durant..Look at Detroit. Yes, they had a few all stars, but not anyone at "superstar" level. But they all played as a team, all played extremely good defence..and were well coached. They played as a team, and won as a team.

    Hibbert has all star potential. Obviously Granger does. I think Brandon has the talent but not the mentality..but the young core, Granger, Rush, Hibbert, Price (Hans??)..are a really good young core. And even better, they CLEARLY love playing with each other. (Rush has hinted, more than once, that he wants to play with Hibbert and Price.)

    Heck, if we lucked out, Got Evan Turner in the draft..then traded Murphy and Josh..or something like that..for say..Okafor..and hired a good coach, even as a young team (Bill L. ??)..I think we'd be quite good even next season, and only grow from that. Whether we became a title contender would depend on a few things, but certainly a very good team.

    Basically..my point. No, we don't need a world beater to be a title contender. That's one way to build a title contender, but it's not the only way. In fact, team play more often than not beats the individualized team. (See the NCAA tournament) And I also think, given the size of the Indy market and such..we'd be better off looking to build a team like Detroit had, because we will struggle to keep a Superstar.

    Perhaps I'm overly optimistic about our younger guys...but I would like to give them a chance and let them play together and see what they can do. Because when gotten the chance, our younger guys have competed with the best teams in the league. Not that I don't agree, that at this point, losing helps us more than winning. But I think, playing the younger guys..letting them compete, learn how to win..and letting the chips fall where they do..I think that helps us the most.
    Last edited by Sookie; 03-21-2010 at 10:06 PM.

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  14. #63
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    There isn't a team in the league that doesn't have at least 2-3 players on the level of Rush or Hibbert. Bottom line is the difference between the bad teams and the really good ones doesn't come from players like Hibbert and Rush.
    This is pretty much my argument. A lot of people who say they want the Pacers to win these meaningless games I don't think really get it. They don't understand that this team will not be better next year or maybe even the year after if we don't get a top draft pick. They don't understand that just because we might have cap space after next year that we still have to be a draw for FA's. They don't understand that if we were to get a John Wall or Evan Turner to put next to Granger, that we would be a really big draw for FA's. As it looks right now without a top draft pick we are going to WAY OVER PAY for any players we get after next year (like the pistons did this year) and still be a long way from contending again.

    I think the best point that can be made is this. The last 2 years we have just barely missed the playoffs and drafted in the late lottery. This year we will not be drafting in the late but it will be the mid-late spot. How many more years of winning meaningless games till no matter how hard we try we don't win at all? Maybe then we can start the rebuilding process because when you rebuild a franchise this is not how it is done.

    Just one more thing. In the same year that we have all this cap space OKC will also have a lot of cap space. If you are a big time FA which team would you honestly want to go to? OKC or the Pacers? I love the Pacers but even I know OKC is on their way up.

  15. #64
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I disagree.

    I don't think you need superstars..a Kobe, Lebron, Durant..Look at Detroit. Yes, they had a few all stars, but not anyone at "superstar" level. But they all played as a team, all played extremely good defence..and were well coached. They played as a team, and won as a team.
    Detroit is the exception, not the rule.

    And even then, Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton and Rasheed Wallace were all mid-high lottery picks. There's a reason Chaucney was taken just two spots behind Tim Duncan and Rasheed was taken on spot above KG. But that's even the point I'm making.

    I like Roy and maybe one day he works himself into a Smits like all-star level center, but as of right now he's not a top 10 player from his own draft class and neither is Brandon Rush. I'm not saying you shouldn't be high on these guys. Point is, if every team in the league has a guy like that on their roster who they can be equally high on.

  16. #65
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    So we need one more player on the level of Hibbert and Rush and one more all-star player then we're set, huh? Based on your logic, we're over halfway to having a good team.
    Keyword I said was "at least", and I when I said "on the level" of, I guess you can say I misspoke. I actually meant "on the level of or better than". I also said that every team in the league had at least that kind of talent, so having just that much doesn't guarantee you anything.
    Last edited by d_c; 03-21-2010 at 10:11 PM.

  17. #66
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Basically..my point. No, we don't need a world beater to be a title contender. That's one way to build a title contender, but it's not the only way. In fact, team play more often than not beats the individualized team. (See the NCAA tournament) And I also think, given the size of the Indy market and such..we'd be better off looking to build a team like Detroit had, because we will struggle to keep a Superstar.
    I believe you couldn't be more wrong. You bring up the Pistons and you have only a SMALL point. Yes they did win ONE championship. However, lets look at the last oh say 20 NBA champions.

    The Bulls won 6 with Jordan
    The Lakers won 3 with Kobe and Shaq 1 with Kobe
    The Spurs won 4 with Duncan
    The Rockets won 2 with Hakeem
    Then you have the Heat with Shaq and Wade with 1
    Finally, you have the Celtics with Garnett, Allen, and Pierce with 1

    The Pistons are the ONLY team that didn't have a superstar. That's what one team in 20 championships... Doesn't sound like a winning formula to me.

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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFreak31 View Post
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    I believe you couldn't be more wrong. You bring up the Pistons and you have only a SMALL point. Yes they did win ONE championship. However, lets look at the last oh say 20 NBA champions.

    The Bulls won 6 with Jordan
    The Lakers won 3 with Kobe and Shaq 1 with Kobe
    The Spurs won 4 with Duncan
    The Rockets won 2 with Hakeem
    Then you have the Heat with Shaq and Wade with 1
    Finally, you have the Celtics with Garnett, Allen, and Pierce with 1

    The Pistons are the ONLY team that didn't have a superstar. That's what one team in 20 championships... Doesn't sound like a winning formula to me.
    Yep. Everyone who says they can win without a superstar is pointing at 1 example (and it's always the same single example) compared to 20 examples that counter their argument.

    And the fans who use that argument are almost always fans of a team that don't even have a player as good as Chauncey Billups.

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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    DC do you just see 2 players with super star potential in this draft? I see 2 almost near misses and then about 3 or 4 that have potential to be and after that nothing but role players.

  21. #69

    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFreak31 View Post
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    I believe you couldn't be more wrong. You bring up the Pistons and you have only a SMALL point. Yes they did win ONE championship. However, lets look at the last oh say 20 NBA champions.

    The Bulls won 6 with Jordan
    The Lakers won 3 with Kobe and Shaq 1 with Kobe
    The Spurs won 4 with Duncan
    The Rockets won 2 with Hakeem
    Then you have the Heat with Shaq and Wade with 1
    Finally, you have the Celtics with Garnett, Allen, and Pierce with 1

    The Pistons are the ONLY team that didn't have a superstar. That's what one team in 20 championships... Doesn't sound like a winning formula to me.
    I would argue that at Garnett's age, he wasn't in the "Lebron, Melo, Kobe" mold (at the time of the ring) and nor were Pierce and Allen. By this I mean, none of those players were franchise changers, and they all needed each other for a ring.

    I would also argue that despite Tim being a superstar, the Spurs play the "team basketball + defense" style.

    And then, there's the fact that, with the exception of Detroit, teams have chosen to go the superstar route. A majority of teams. Instead of the "team play + very good players" route. As I said, I think the latter beats the former...that is assuming that amoung the very good players you have a leader, and a clutch player.

    Yes, "stars" have dominated the championships, but ask yourself, how many teams tried to build themselves the way Detroit did vs. How many tried the "star" method.

    And..as I said..Indiana's best hopes at a championship is to build a team like Detroit has. Because the odds of getting a Franchise type player, that everyone wants is extremely slim..and most likely only gotten through the draft. And if we were to get one in the draft, we would most likely lose him when free agency came around, because bigger markets are key for fame and making endorsement money.

    Detroit isn't "an exception" Detroit is an example of one way to build a basketball team. You're making this "one championship" sound like a miracle. That Detroit team was very good for a few years. They were conference champs twice, and won their devision from 05-08. My point is that team basketball wins, and wouldn't we all take the success Detroit had.

    For multiple reasons, and not because the "franchise player" is the most efficient way to win, teams elect to build through one player. That doesn't make that method the only way to do it.
    Last edited by Sookie; 03-21-2010 at 10:46 PM.

  22. #70
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Do you think if John Wall or Evan Turner is putting up 20 ppg for us that we're going to remember that we tanked the last month and a half of the season? No, we'll forget about it. This franchise needs a difference-maker, not another "nice" player.

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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Actually lets look at what I typed above

    The Bulls won 6 with Jordan
    The Lakers won 3 with Kobe and Shaq 1 with Kobe
    The Spurs won 4 with Duncan
    The Rockets won 2 with Hakeem
    Then you have the Heat with Shaq and Wade with 1
    Finally, you have the Celtics with Garnett, Allen, and Pierce with 1

    Lets see, Jordan DRAFTED by the Bulls, Kobe DRAFTED by the Lakers, Duncan DRAFTED by the Spurs, Wade DRAFTED by the Heat, Pierce DRAFTED by the Celtics, Hakeem DRAFTED by the Rockets.... I hope everyone sees a pattern here.

    Also Jordan taken 3rd, Kobe 13th, Duncan 1st, Wade 5th, Pierce 10th, Hakeem 1st proves that you really need a high draft pick in order to get that superstar. Pierce and Kobe could be argued with where they were taken but Pierce only won after 2 other superstars joined him. Kobe is the only exception out of the group.

  24. #72
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFreak31 View Post
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    Lets see, Jordan DRAFTED by the Bulls, Kobe DRAFTED by the Lakers, Duncan DRAFTED by the Spurs, Wade DRAFTED by the Heat, Pierce DRAFTED by the Celtics, Hakeem DRAFTED by the Rockets.... I hope everyone sees a pattern here.
    I could also argue that just about 98% of any other player to ever play on a championship team was drafted by someone at some position in some point in time.

  25. #73
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    I could also argue that just about 98% of any other player to ever play on a championship team was drafted by someone at some position in some point in time.
    DO you not see the point? All of those players were drafted by the team they won the championship with! I guess you just didn't make that connection. Maybe next time I will bold the team names also to make it easier for you to understand.

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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFreak31 View Post
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    DO you not see the point? All of those players were drafted by the team they won the championship with! I guess you just didn't make that connection. Maybe next time I will bold the team names also to make it easier for you to understand.
    Eh, I was too lazy to read further up, but I get your point. I'll still counter that with what I said. Either side is right.

  27. #75
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Well actully the Hornets Drafted Kobe but meh...


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