View Poll Results: Who is right on this issue?

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  • Mike is. We need to tank.

    44 68.75%
  • TMJ31 is. Have some pride and win.

    6 9.38%
  • Neither is. Either way this is not the solution.

    3 4.69%
  • Don't care. I've had enough with all this.

    11 17.19%
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Thread: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

  1. #1
    Honorary Area 55'er TMJ31's Avatar
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    Default More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Here is a recent back & forth I had with Mike Wells via Twitter...
    For those of you who don't follow myself or him.

    Tweets go chronologically from oldest on top to newest below...

    Wells222
    Pacers have gone from having the 4th worst record in the league to having the 8th worst in less than a week. That's not good for them.
    21 minutes ago via web

    -

    TMJonsson
    @Wells222 I'm sorry Mike, but this is a horrible mindset. If you are a fan, you want your team to win every game they play.
    8 minutes ago via web in reply to Wells222

    -

    Wells222
    @TMJonsson i can't wait to here you guys moaning and groaning about them having the 13th pick again in june.
    6 minutes ago via web in reply to TMJonsson

    -

    TMJonsson
    @Wells222 I'd rather have a late draft choice then have to live with being a team that has no desire to improve, but instead flail to finish
    4 minutes ago via web in reply to Wells222

    TMJonsson
    @Wells222 I might add, all you will HEAR me say if that happens, is that I am proud of the team for playing hard till the end.
    3 minutes ago via web in reply to Wells222

    -

    Wells222
    @TMJonsson i guess you said that the pat couple of years, too? LOL
    3 minutes ago via web in reply to TMJonsson

    -
    TMJonsson
    @Wells222 I have been VERY proud of the team during their 9th seed years. They never gave up and had legit chances at the playoffs.
    2 minutes ago via web in reply to Wells222

    TMJonsson
    @Wells222 It really bothers me that even the local Pacers media is encouraging a losing culture. You should know better. Have some pride.
    half a minute ago via web in reply to Wells222

    -
    Wells222
    @TMJonsson i'm not encouraging anything. i'm just saying they need a high draft pick if they expect to get better sooner rather than later.
    3 minutes ago via web in reply to TMJonsson

    -

    TMJonsson
    @Wells222 So by closing out the year on a high note, improving chemistry and morale, we cannot expect to get better in any way next year?
    less than 10 seconds ago via web in reply to Wells222

    -

    Wells222
    @TMJonsson those closed out last season on a good note, and look where it got them this season.
    1 minute ago via web in reply to TMJonsson

    -

    TMJonsson
    @Wells222 So you're saying that since hindsight is 20/20, we should have just tanked each of the past 4 seasons? Great outlook.
    less than 5 seconds ago via web in reply to Wells222

    -

    TMJonsson
    @Wells222 Look Mike, I understand the theory behind all this tanking crap. For me, it's the principle of the thing. Play to win!
    less than 5 seconds ago via web in reply to Wells222

    -

    Looks like the local media is on the same "how funny is it that we are winning games and blowing our chances of ever being good again" bandwagon.

    I know this has been covered here multiple times, but I am just really starting to get upset.

    Even the local beat writers are mocking people like me who want to see my team WIN.

    How dare I ?!?!
    I ought to be ashamed!
    Last edited by TMJ31; 03-21-2010 at 06:24 PM.
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  3. #2
    Member chrisjacobs7's Avatar
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Mike is right. Lose now for a player that will bring more wins later.

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  5. #3
    Honorary Area 55'er TMJ31's Avatar
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisjacobs7 View Post
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    Mike is right. Lose now for a player that will bring more wins later.
    *sigh*

    I feel like I am out on an island by myself here.

    I can't believe that this is the prevailing opinion. Baffles me completely.
    Read my Pacers.com Guest Blog:
    "Area 55 Conquers Staples Center"

  6. #4

    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    "Have some pride"? More like foolish pride.

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  8. #5
    Honorary Area 55'er TMJ31's Avatar
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by OrganizedConfusion View Post
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    "Have some pride"? More like foolish pride.
    Seriously?

    SERIOUSLY!?

    You call yourself a Pacers fan? Then you root for them to WIN THE GAMES THEY PLAY.

    I am sorry but this current sentiment of just losing every game we possible can is the most counter-intuitive, hypocritical thing I have seen on this board in my entire time here.
    Read my Pacers.com Guest Blog:
    "Area 55 Conquers Staples Center"

  9. #6

    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Do these three recent wins mean ANYTHING in the long run? Sure, it feels good now. I like winning.

    But I like winning a lot more than 30 games too. And it doesn't look like that's going to happen for the foreseeable future now that the Pacers are going to have a late lottery pick.

    The Pacers need talent badly to in order to win more. And they're not going to get it through free agency. The Pacers have some decent trade assets to acquire somebody, but will it be anybody that will truly help us? I'm not so sure. So that just leaves the draft.

    The goal is to win, of course. But it's not just to win in the short term. It's to become a consistent winner in the long term. So in the this case, losing in the short term actually gets us to that goal.

    I'm still a Pacers fan. I want them to win. But winning games now just means more 30-win seasons for the next 5 years. Maybe a move to Kansas City. Is that what you want?

    Speaking of twitter, here's a convo I posted in another thread:

    @Wells222 Pacers beat Thunder 121-101

    @chadfordinsider: I love how the Pacers are now playing themselves out of a good lottery pick. Way to go Obie

    @Wells222 I guess they haven't gotten the memo that they NEED a high draft pick to help speed up the rebuilding project

    @chadfordinsider: How do we get it to them?

    @Wells222 Pacers go from 4th worst in league to 8th worst in less than a week

    @chadfordinsider: That's the difference between Favors/Cousins and Cole Aldrich
    Last edited by Aw Heck; 03-21-2010 at 06:25 PM.
    WE ARE NOT GETTING ERIC GORDON

  10. #7
    Lakers Fan In Indy Lefty's Avatar
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by TMJ31 View Post
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    *sigh*

    I feel like I am out on an island by myself here.

    I can't believe that this is the prevailing opinion. Baffles me completely.
    I understand your mindset. You hate to admit that your team should tank, but in reality it's the right thing to do.

    No shot at the playoffs, so why fight for a lower draft pick? That's a bad business move. They have been doing it for years now and look where's it gotten you. Similar situations each year.

    Let's think about it.. why would you want to fall out of a chance for Wall, Turner, Cousins, Favors, or Johnson to end up having to choose from say Monroe, Patterson, Aldrich, or Donatas Motiejunas?

  11. #8
    Honorary Area 55'er TMJ31's Avatar
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    I think you guys are all misunderstanding where I am coming from.

    I completely understand WHY losing would be beneficial to us. Having a better shot at a better draft choice is a positive thing.

    So why do I "condone" winning?

    Because, call me a stubborn idiot, but I am a principled person.

    I don't follow the popular trend if it happens to go against what I feel is right.

    Therefore, YES, I want them to win every friggin game they can win.

    Because I am a true Pacers fan, and I root for them to win every time they step on the court.

    Don't care whatsoever if I am labeled as short-sighted, ignorant, anything of the sort.

    I do not apologize for rooting for my team, no matter the situation.
    Read my Pacers.com Guest Blog:
    "Area 55 Conquers Staples Center"

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  13. #9

    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    At the rate they're going the Pacers are going to end up with another 13th pick or something, which will NOT help the team improve at all, unless they get lucky and another Danny Granger draft-day scenario happens (and it won't happen). This team needs another player who can have a major impact on the franchise (like John Wall), or the same pattern that has happened for the past several seasons will likely keep happening.

  14. #10
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    TMJ, IMHO you could not be any more wrong or misguided. But you can take solace in the fact that apparently someone who matters in TPTB at the Pacers agree with you.

    But I'm glad you enjoy this season because we're setting up another season just like it next year...
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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  16. #11
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by TMJ31 View Post
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    Seriously?

    SERIOUSLY!?

    You call yourself a Pacers fan? Then you root for them to WIN THE GAMES THEY PLAY.

    I am sorry but this current sentiment of just losing every game we possible can is the most counter-intuitive, hypocritical thing I have seen on this board in my entire time here.
    Pacers are not going to get better with having the 10th - 14th pick year after year. We need a good draft pick. We're not making the playoffs, it would literally take a miracle for that to happen. We probably wont be able to lure in a top tier FA because there is other destinations they would rather go. The only way for a top tier player is through the draft, meaning a high pick.

    What JOB should be doing right now is starting Price.
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



  17. #12
    Honorary Area 55'er TMJ31's Avatar
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    TMJ, IMHO you could not be any more wrong or misguided. But you can take solace in the fact that apparently someone who matters in TPTB at the Pacers agree with you.

    But I'm glad you enjoy this season because we're setting up another season just like it next year...
    Way to be optimistic.

    Look, I am just as frustrated about this year's W/L as everyone else.

    But that I am called wrong and misguided for rooting for my team to win?

    Just stop and REALLY think about that for a minute.
    Read my Pacers.com Guest Blog:
    "Area 55 Conquers Staples Center"

  18. #13

    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    Pacers are not going to get better with having the 10th - 14th pick year after year. We need a good draft pick. We're not making the playoffs, it would literally take a miracle for that to happen. We probably wont be able to lure in a top tier FA because there is other destinations they would rather go. The only way for a top tier player is through the draft, meaning a high pick.

    What JOB should be doing right now is starting Price.
    Agreed. Price, Rush, McRoberts, Solo, and the rest of the younger guys should be getting the most playing time right now. It's great if they win, but by far the most important factor is that they gain more experience.

  19. #14

    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    I want the team to play the young guys.

    I want the young guys to try their best to win. The Cavs game was fantastic, for example.

    And I don't care what happens that way. Because either option is a positive.

    When Murphy and Earl win games for us..it's just...ew..

    And for the record, since AJ/Rush/Hibbert brought the Pacers back into the game against the Cavs..they haven't played a minute together in TWO games.
    Last edited by Sookie; 03-21-2010 at 06:52 PM.

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  21. #15
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    The Pacers will finish somewhere with 6-10 pick. Lower than that is NOT likely.
    Plus if the Pacers really want a particular talent they can always bite the bullet and trade for a potential one in the draft. Plus the lottery is still in play.
    {o,o}
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  22. #16
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Wanting the Pacers to win now is just killing their future. We need a good pick. If we could get Wall or Turner (which we probably wont now), I can guarantee we'll see the playoffs in a year or 2. But the way we're going and moving us out of a chance for 1st or 2nd pick, we're going to be out of the playoffs for a long time
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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  24. #17
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by TMJ31 View Post
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    Way to be optimistic.

    Look, I am just as frustrated about this year's W/L as everyone else.

    But that I am called wrong and misguided for rooting for my team to win?

    Just stop and REALLY think about that for a minute.
    I'm being realistic IMHO.

    Something has to change, and soon, or this team is going to be leaving Indy because there will be no one left here to even care.

    I can't help that the best way to improve your draft chances is to lose. I can't help that we have an overall losing team whether we're playing the vets or younger players right now. I can't help that of the vets we do have, several aren't in the future plans (or shouldn't be).

    If you see hope in meaningless wins, I don't know what to tell you. This season is lost. The only 2 things it could be good for would be developing the younger players into better assets for the future and positioning ourselves into a better lottery position and higher draft pick.

    We could do what we're doing and run the table with wins and the season would still be lost... it would just be more lost than it already is.

    At the end of the season you can pick up some cheap wins against teams jostling for draft position and against teams already in the playoffs with nothing to play for. Don't expect me to care about those wins...
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

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  26. #18
    Member tsm612's Avatar
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by TMJ31 View Post
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    *sigh*

    I feel like I am out on an island by myself here.

    I can't believe that this is the prevailing opinion. Baffles me completely.
    It's the prevailing opinion because apparently, the majority of people believe that it's not how you play the game but whether you win or lose. I don't even read the game threads anymore during the games because if we're doing something well, everyone complains and posts an abundance of " " smilies. If we're playing poorly, they cheer. I understand the idea of wanting a good draft spot, but this is getting ridiculous. If people are going to cheer on the other team, go to their forums and do it. Not here.

  27. #19
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I want the team to play the young guys.

    I want the young guys to try their best to win. The Cavs game was fantastic, for example.

    And I don't care what happens that way. Because either option is a positive.

    When Murphy and Earl win games for us..it's just...ew..

    And for the record, since AJ/Rush/Hibbert brought the Pacers back into the game against the Cavs..they haven't played a minute together in TWO games.
    I agree with this completely. In fact, I would even have McRoberts starting over Murphy to see what he is capable of, but there are some on here who are angry even when the young guys do well at this point.

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  29. #20

    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    I'm sympathetic with you, TMJ. Quixotic struggle in the face of hopelessness makes up half mankind's greatest literature.



    .
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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  31. #21
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by TMJ31 View Post
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    *sigh*

    I feel like I am out on an island by myself here.

    I can't believe that this is the prevailing opinion. Baffles me completely.
    You're not by yourself, I'm with you all the way. I can have no regard for players, coaches, front office, writers, or fans who advocate losing for any reason, including a higher draft pick.

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  33. #22
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyMac View Post
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    I can have no regard for players, coaches, front office, writers, or fans who advocate losing for any reason, including a higher draft pick.
    I'm sure Sam Presti has trouble going to sleep at night because he can't live with himself for all the tanking he did. How can he even look at himself in the mirror?


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  35. #23

    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    I'm sure Sam Presti has trouble going to sleep at night because he can't live with himself for all the tanking he did. How can he even look at himself in the mirror?

    Exactly. The Zombie Sonics didn't improve by consistently picking in the 9-13 range every year.
    WE ARE NOT GETTING ERIC GORDON

  36. #24

    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by TMJ31 View Post
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    Seriously?

    SERIOUSLY!?

    You call yourself a Pacers fan? Then you root for them to WIN THE GAMES THEY PLAY.

    I am sorry but this current sentiment of just losing every game we possible can is the most counter-intuitive, hypocritical thing I have seen on this board in my entire time here.
    Just because someone takes a view at the longer view of the team shouldn't make you question their fandom. As for my personal fandom, I am just hoping for the future. I am so disgusted with the coach, the team, the front office, the whole season has just progressed in the worst possible way. I suppose it is fitting for the team to make it even worse to finish the season. Destroying whatever good might have come from being one of the worst teams in the league. Everything that can gone wrong has, and it appears to be continuing.

    The one benefit of following a horrible team in the NBA for a whole season is that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Knowing that as bad as this season is, there is the NBA draft and hope for the future. The Pacers are managing to even squash that consolation hope.

    I certainly don't want be to talked down to by you in that tone for feeling that way.
    Last edited by PaceBalls; 03-21-2010 at 07:36 PM.

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  38. #25
    Honorary Area 55'er TMJ31's Avatar
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    Default Re: More Fuel to the Lottery Standings Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    Just because someone takes a view at the longer view of the team shouldn't make you question their fandom. As for my personal fandom, I am just hoping for the future. I am so disgusted with the coach, the team, the front office, the whole season has just progressed in the worst possible way. I suppose it is fitting for the team to make it even worse to finish the season. Destroying whatever good might have come from being one of the worst teams in the league. Everything that can gone wrong has, and it appears to be continuing.

    The one benefit of following a horrible team in the NBA for a whole season is that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Knowing that as bad as this season is, there is the NBA draft and hope for the future. The Pacers are managing to even squash that consolation hope.

    I certainly don't want be to talked down to by you in that tone for feeling that way.

    So if you are hoping for the future, as we all are...

    Why not take pride and solace in the fact that we are coming together and playing well as a team even in the face of "irrelevant" wins.

    The first half of the year, we complain and moan about the team losing.
    The second half of the year, we complain and moan about the team winning.

    It's absurd.

    We do not know what will happen with the draft lottery.

    I do not know about any of you guys, but I am a man of faith and conviction.

    I truly believe that by doing what is right and honorable, you will reap rewards.

    Teams playing half-assed basketball to improve their chances at a high lottery pick are not doing the honorable thing by ANY stretch of the imagination.

    The past several years, coming in 9th place... Yea it has been rough.
    We miss the playoffs AND get the worst possible "draft pick".
    Does this mean we should have not made the attempt to get the 8th seed when we had an opportunity?
    Should we simply have folded up shop because we were going to be facing a #1 seed with slim chances of winning?

    This attitude does nothing for morale.
    This attitude does nothing to encourage a winning culture.
    This attitude does nothing to develop a sense of pride and honor within our beloved Pacer franchise that has been obviously lacking since Reggie retired.


    I do not intend to "talk down" to anyone.
    I just can't believe the things I am hearing coming from Pacers fans mouths right now.
    Last edited by TMJ31; 03-21-2010 at 07:50 PM.
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