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Thread: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

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    Default Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    "Look for Herbert Simon to get an offer for the Indiana Pacers for around $230 million over the next few months. The Pacers are losing a pile of money and have not had a winning season since 2004-05. Simon has been borrowing money to finance operating losses and the Pacers now have roughly $150 million of debt. The Pacers pay $15 million a year to run the Conseco Field House and have tired to no avail to get taxpayers to cover more of those expenses. Simon, 75, and his late brother Melvin bought the team in 1983 for $10.5 million, so he should make out fine. But if the team goes for an enterprise value of $230 million it will be the third offer for a NBA franchise (the Charlotte Bobcats and New Jersey Nets have deals pending) far below the $300 million the expansion Bobcats went for in 2003. A bad patch like this is unprecedented in the NBA."

    http://blogs.forbes.com/sportsmoney/...r-cheap-price/ Forbes

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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    Damn, I hope if he sells its to someone with Indiana ties...I have a bad feeling they would leave Indiana either way...maybe Lilly could buy it? Or is Tony George looking to do something now?


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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    with all the hard years the Pacers have had (financially) I dont see the Simons selling the team now. Our "good" days are coming up ahead of us.
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    I could see Bird look at forming a group to buy the team. I could also see a guy like Jeff Smulyan (owner of Emmis) being interested too.

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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    Lilly wants absolutely nothing to do with this team outside of a sign inside the building.
    Last edited by duke dynamite; 03-20-2010 at 12:09 PM.

  9. #6

    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    The brawl is prob. responsible for at least half those losses. From that point on we have had no team. It's a shame that we played one of the best 47minute games in history against a great opponent that was the defending champions. Downhill since, this is why I still can't stand Artest.
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    I think you are right - the brawl plays a large role, in addition to the retirement of Reggie Miller, an aging front office including Donnie Walsh, and poor choices in future planning - JO was really never to be a team leader and Ron Artest wasn't handled with the kid gloves he needed to be handled with, outside of the brawl. Also, Stephen Jackson should have been packaged by way of contract with Mike Brown - he's the only guy who ever was able to handle him and Stephen Jackson's mistakes didn't help this team restore its image.
    "Sometimes, when you look Andy in the eyes, you get a feeling somebody else is driving." -- David Letterman

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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    Honestly I don't blame the brawl for any of this. The fans still came out that season, and the season after. It was the off court **** that turned everyone off...remember the "It's Up To Us" Campaign, followed with the shooting at Rio?


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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    Thought this was worth posting. The last paragraph in particular was interesting ( i wasn't aware of it at least).

    The Dallas Morning News' Mark Francescutti has an excellent article today outlining the success teams are having by doing something counter-intuitive. Slashing prices. The Mavs are obviously the centerpiece, with this money quote from Mark Cuban:

    "Bottom line is that the upper bowl is becoming a smaller and smaller part of our total revenue," owner Mark Cuban wrote in an e-mail to The Associated Press. "So we would rather have a full house than make a couple dollars more. More fans means a better home-court advantage, it means a better fan experience, which in turn means more sales."

    The reason that the Mavs can make those kind of cuts is because the modern arena economy is now dependent on corporate suites and club seating. By focusing on those tickets, it allows the teams to fill out the big house.

    This is why so many owners are requesting new arenas (outside of sheer greed). The modern economy has shifted to a sleeker, more efficient model and many older arenas are simply not fitted to that model.

    Which brings us to the case of Indianapolis versus Kansas City. We told you yesterday about the Pacers potentially being sold for dirt cheap (that's right, $230 million is cheap in what we're talking about). One of the reasons a potential owner may want to relocate the team is because of the way the arena is configured.

    Conseco Fieldhouse has 66 luxury suites. To put that in perspective, American Airlines Center in Dallas has 144 suites. Geez. Even smaller markets like the Rose Garden in Portland has 70 suites. Arco Arenas is severely behind with only 30 suites, one of the reason a new arena is a major issue in Sacramento. The Toyota Center in Houston has 80 suites.
    http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.c...na-economy.php

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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    This is getting a little concerning.

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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    yeah, this is not looking good.

  18. #12

    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    This is why so many owners are requesting new arenas (outside of sheer greed). The modern economy has shifted to a sleeker, more efficient model and many older arenas are simply not fitted to that model.

    I thought Conseco Fieldhouse was the greatest sports venue in America. When did that change? I think the guys who declared Conseco the greatest were judging on some other basis than revenue-generating capability, though.

    Are we really talking about an obsolete arena after only a decade?
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    Are we really talking about an obsolete arena after only a decade?
    I don't know for sure if that is the case, but it is possible as there certainly is precedent. The Charlotte Hornets' arena was considered obsolete about 10-15 years after it was built, and this caused the team to move. The St. Louis Rams stadium is currently considered obsolete and it is about 10 years old, hence the rumors of moving that franchise back to Los Angeles. It is important to note that both of these facilities are/were considered obsolete principally because they lack(ed) a sufficient number of luxury suites.

    66 luxury suites to me seems sufficient for a small market like Indiana, but I don't know. The depressing thing about all of this is that these suites, which are of very few in number compared to the 15,000 or so "regular" seats, are always going to be much more important to the owner and essential to the staying power of a team in a city than the said regular seats. It doesn't really matter if Duke Dynamite and hundreds of other people like him renew their season tickets. It has little bearing at all on this team's future, well unless Duke or one of his friend win the lottery and decide to help the team out by paying luxury box prices for their seats. I think that is kind of sad. The business of sports is depressing.

    Quote Originally Posted by putty
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    I think the guys who declared Conseco the greatest were judging on some other basis than revenue-generating capability, though.
    I think you're right. For most folks, it is all about money. Pacer fans are lucky because I think Simon really does like having the franchise here and it is not all about money for him. From what I've heard his son isn't so generous and will likely sell the team when Herb passes away. So in the end, it will all be about money for the Pacers. In the end, whoever owns this team will care less about giving Indiana fans an entertaining product and more about making money for themselves in whatever city will allow them to be the most profitable or at least break even.

    All of this is too emotional for me. If some dolt buys the Pacers and moves them to Kansas ****ing City over 15 damn luxury suites, I don't think I will ever be able to watch the NBA again. In fact, I don't know if I could ever give another entertainment dollar to professional sports.
    Last edited by idioteque; 03-20-2010 at 06:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    The Fieldhouse's suites are never full.

    Again, the RCA Dome was a ghost town before the Colts became title contenders after 2004. Heck, on one of my old newspapers from the day after we drafted Granger, and it had an ad on the back of it for Colts season tickets, with no deposit or waiting lists, and this was 2005.

    It takes winning. Establish a winning culture in any sport, city, or team and these places will be packed full again. Consistant sellouts? Maybe not. But I will tell you that all this financial mumbo-jumbo wouldn't be that big of a deal.

    It's all in the TPTB's hands.

    That goes without saying, if the Pacers move, I'm moving to Cincinnati.

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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    I would think the Kings would be another team. We at least have a nice new arena.

    I really hope who ever may purchase the team keeps everything as is.

    The marketing is fine. We need wins, good players, playoffs and hopefully success there.

    The rebuilding is taking time. The franchise will earn the money and the team will be what it should be.

    God, I hope they don't go anywhere my first year in Indy.

    It takes so much for a professional franchise to relocate or shut down.
    Last edited by Trophy; 03-20-2010 at 08:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    It's going to be tough to sell an NBA team to someone right now with a possible lockout looming in 2011.

    Ignore the Nets and 'Cats. New Jersey grabbed the Russian man's cash because he doesn't know any better and had the money and MJ is MJ.

    I'd hate to see the Pacers leave Indy, though. Can't and shouldn't happen.

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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Trophy View Post
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    God, I hope they don't go anywhere my first year in Indy.
    Well, I'll be the first to blame you.

    Stay away.

  26. #18

    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    The article is incorrect as it appears Conseco has a few more suites than what that article suggests. I found an NBA.com site that suggests that there are 69 suites, plus two additional hospitality suites. http://hoopedia.nba.com/index.php?ti...eco_Fieldhouse 69+2=71 suites. Furthermore, Conseco has about 2400 club seats versus 1500 in the Sprint Center.

    Comparing the Dallas and Indy market is like comparing Apples and Oranges. Dallas is one of the 10 largest cities and metro areas in the country. Plus, the arena is also shared with the NHL team (Stars), so I would expect them to have a lot more suites than Conseco.

    If you want to measure comparable arenas, let's look at cities like Charlotte, San Antonio, Orlando, Portland, New Orleans, Memphis, Milwaukee, Oklahoma City, Cleveland, etc.

    Here's the breakdown of what I could find as far as suites in these other cities that I referenced:

    -- Charlotte (Time Warner Cable Arena) Opened in 2005 w/ 51 suites
    -- San Antonio (AT&T Center) Opened in 2002 w/ 50 suites
    -- Orlando (Amway Arena) Opened in 1989 w/ 26 suites
    -- Portland (Rose Garden) Opened in 1995 w/ 70 suites
    -- New Orleans (NO Arena) Opened in 1999 w/ 44 Suites
    -- Memphis (FedEx Forum) Opened in 2004 with 75 suites
    -- Milwaukee (Bradley Arena) Opened in 1988 w/ 68 Suites
    -- OKC (Ford Center) Opened in 2002 w/ 56 suites
    -- Cleveland (Quicken Loans Arena) Opened in 1994 w/92 suites

    *** Magic are opening up a new arena this fall w/ 60 suites

    As you can see, there are several cities very comparable to Indy that have newer arenas with fewer luxury suites. Several cities with similar populations and demographics to Indy (San Antonio, Charlotte, Orlando) have or are opening new arenas after Conseco was built with fewer suites. Cities like New Orleans and OKC landed their teams after building their arenas.

    Cities like LA, Dallas, Chicago, Boston, Houston, NY, Miami, etc. are some of the largest cities in the country with a strong corporate base, greater populations, etc. than Indy. It only makes sense that their arenas house a larger number of suites.

    In areas like Sacramento and Charlotte previously, those arenas were and are not located downtown and had/have such a small number of suites. I had gone to the Charlotte Coliseum before it was torn down and it's way out in a suburb and only housed 12 suites, despite being built in 1988. To put this into perspective, Market Square Arena was opened in 1974 with 36 suites. An Arena like Arco in Sacramento is also located off the beaten path.

    Kansas City may have a newer arena, but they also have the Chiefs and Royals. I don't know if there's enough corporate support there for a 3rd professional team from one of the Big 4. Plus, KC also has an MLS team too.

    A team like Sacramento is more likely to move before Indy does. Yes, the Pacers may potentially be up for sale, but I expect the Simon family will try and find an owner -- whether local or not -- who wants to keep the team in Indy!

    The author of this article saw the blurb on the Pacers from Forbes and decides to float a story out there that is not true.
    Last edited by Smoothdave1; 03-20-2010 at 11:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    The original looks like just another article talking about the Pacers financial problem and as it says "Look for Herbert Simon to get an offer for the Indiana Pacers for around $230 million over the next few months," to me, that just sounds like nothing more than his prediction that it could happen and then gives his opinion of what the team is worth. It doesn't mean that he has some kind of inside information about the matter.

    And as things get carried away, the quote from http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.c...ance-aisle.php (the first article from ProBasketballTalk about the matter) is "Michael K. Ozanian of Forbes is reporting that the Indiana Pacers owner Herb Simon will receive an offer for $230 million or less in the next two months." Smoothdave1 is exactly right in that the article is not true. Besides the obvious distortion of facts regarding suites, both articles from ProBasketballTalk are simply based on someone else's speculation and then passed off as fact.

    There is no real story here.

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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    Well, I'll be the first to blame you.

    Stay away.
    They need to get good and have lots of sellouts for the next few seasons for me to be convinced they won't be going anywhere.

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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    I think if Tyler is able to live up to what his college standards were, that'll sell more tickets. People know him and he's a big named player who is very good and fun to watch.

    His play will also help us wins so hopefully he gets all better and doesn't lack next season.

    Also Conseco Fieldhouse is definitly one of the most nicest arenas out there. I don't know why luxury suites are an issue. They all aren't filled every single home game. Who can afford it that's what I wanna know?

    I'm hoping the Simons offer first to anyone local before risking selling the team out of the state.

    I think there will be a turning point for the better which will avoid all of this financial debt.
    Last edited by Trophy; 03-21-2010 at 12:00 AM.

  31. #22

    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    I'm pretty sure when the Fieldhouse was built that there was a huge penalty in moving the team the first 20 years. That could be a definite reason for staying. Colts have the same deal at Lucas Oil Stadium. Bring a winner in and everything sells, keep JOB as coach and we lose (had to throw that in there).
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    Not being political here, but with the promise of closing tax loopholes I wonder just how Desirable owning a sports franchise or even leasing a suite will be in the near future?
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    It is almost like Chad Ford is telling us once more how certain we are to trade Murphy for Ilgauskas before the trade deadline. Until the estate of Mel Simon settles, depending on how any challenges against the estate and its holdings are structured, it might be difficult for the Simon family to do anything with the franchise whether they want to or not.

    With respect to the arena speculation, unless and until the Pacers are able to sell their suites out for full value, their club seats out for full value, and the lower bowl seats out for full value, AND do so on a consistent basis AND pay their obligations to the CIB, the issue of a new arena here is a complete non-starter due to the public backlash that such an undertaking would generate. I think that the taxpayers would literally run the franchise out of Indianapolis if further burden is placed on taxpayers to fund any of the cost of such a facility, let alone a large portion, if not all, of it as would be required at this point.

    If there is any truth regarding the arena being inadequate as a revenue generator for supporting the Pacers as a franchise (and I don't think that is actually the case, and never has been IMO), then they had better either fold (which would s*ck) or move to a far higher population density area with a lot more major corporations in place who have interest in purchasing all three of the non-balcony ticket types, as well as paying a higher amount for in-arena advertising opportunities.

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    Default Re: Brief Forbes article discussing how much Simon could get for the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    It is almost like Chad Ford is telling us once more how certain we are to trade Murphy for Ilgauskas before the trade deadline. Until the estate of Mel Simon settles, depending on how any challenges against the estate and its holdings are structured, it might be difficult for the Simon family to do anything with the franchise whether they want to or not.
    I believe that Mel Simon sold/gave his share of the team to Herb while Mel was in poor health. I believe that there are no entanglements with the Mel Simon estate in regards to the Pacers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888
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    With respect to the arena speculation, unless and until the Pacers are able to sell their suites out for full value, their club seats out for full value, and the lower bowl seats out for full value, AND do so on a consistent basis AND pay their obligations to the CIB, the issue of a new arena here is a complete non-starter due to the public backlash that such an undertaking would generate. I think that the taxpayers would literally run the franchise out of Indianapolis if further burden is placed on taxpayers to fund any of the cost of such a facility, let alone a large portion, if not all, of it as would be required at this point.

    If there is any truth regarding the arena being inadequate as a revenue generator for supporting the Pacers as a franchise (and I don't think that is actually the case, and never has been IMO), then they had better either fold (which would s*ck) or move to a far higher population density area with a lot more major corporations in place who have interest in purchasing all three of the non-balcony ticket types, as well as paying a higher amount for in-arena advertising opportunities.
    I didn't think the building was ever called into question, unless I misread somewhere along the line. The thing in question is the lease and who gets to hold the bag on operating the facility. The building is going to generate revenue if their are posteriors parked in the seats.
    Last edited by Roaming Gnome; 03-21-2010 at 11:09 AM.
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