View Poll Results: Who would you want the Pacers to draft out of these two?

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  • Derrick Favors

    62 79.49%
  • DeMarcus Cousins

    16 20.51%
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Thread: Favors or Cousins?

  1. #51
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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    Hansbrough showed some of the attitude, I want, I just don't know where this sustained injury leaves him.

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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Cole is by far my biggest fear for the draft.
    It would be a waste to take him. We don't need another young center who will battle time with Roy.

    We're better off signing a veteran center to play backup time behind Roy.

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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    Quote Originally Posted by cordobes View Post
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    I haven't seen enough of any of them to give an opinion on who's better, but I'm almost 100% sure that if the Pacers draft Cousins they'll trade Hibbert right after. That's just too much slowness for today's game (even though Cousins isn't a slow player for a center at all - but to play at the PF, he probably needs to be paired with a center like Thabeet, not Hibbert). Favors seems to be a much more natural fit.
    This is what no one is talking about. Cousins is almost certainly a full-time center in the NBA, and I'm really skeptical of a Hibbert/Cousins pairing in the frontcourt, for the reasons that you mentioned.

  4. #54
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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome
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    I'm not speaking of Cousins or a "bad boy" specifically, but we do need a player with some swagger and fire in a leadership position on the team. You can have great locker room guys be role players, but we need some aggressiveness out of the core.
    I agree we need a guy like that, but IMO Cousins isn't that guy. He seems closer to Ron Artest than he does Mark Jackson. Pass!

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  6. #55
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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    On Cousins, is there anything documented on his attitude/work ethic? I need to watch him more closely to see if I see some Hulk tendencies or not. I just wonder since, I'd hate to dismiss this guy, if its not really a true concern. I have no horse in this race, other than the Pacers drafting the most bestest possible player.

    I'd assume it's not other teams who want him to fall to them, this early in the process.

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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I agree we need a guy like that, but IMO Cousins isn't that guy. He seems closer to Ron Artest than he does Mark Jackson. Pass!
    It's college and he doesn't frequently get in trouble.

    Like AJ, he had an issue in college and he wasn't getting in trouble frequently.

    I'm sure if the Pacers take him, he'd stay out of trouble based on the team we have and that he'd mature.

  8. #57
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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    Until it curdles. Bleaaaaagh.
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  9. #58
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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    I've watched them both a lot. I've been down on Favors for being so raw (he is) and down on Cousins for being so combustable (he is), but neither issue is a dealbreaker for me anymore.

    Cousins' behavior has the makings of just being really young. And frankly the team needs some fire. Favors has made great strides in his game already and is a monster himself.

    Getting the #3 or #4 pick is a homerun either way, I'm 100% neutral and pleased with either of them as a pick. It would almost (but not quite) be enough to make me renew with JOB still here as the coach.


    BTW, let's say that either of them don't pan out, I don't fault the team for taking them. Right now without a crystal ball I think there is way too much guesswork or assumption to assume that either won't make it. They have NBA bodies, strength, hops and speed for a frontline guy.


    Having said all that, it sure was intriguing to see the passion and big time playmaking from Cousins the other day...

    Cousins reminds me of a hard working Derrick Coleman.
    Fixed

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  11. #59

    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    If Favors and Cousins switched teams I don't think this would even be a discussion. Cousins benefits from having Wall, Patterson and Bledsoe, where as Favors is somewhat hindered by playing next to Lawal. Put Cousins next to Lawal and you would see a drop in his rebounds and points as well since Lawal doesn't space the floor and is a very good on the boards. (better than Cousins imo) I have to give my vote to Favors since I think he is more talented and a better fit with Hibbert than Cousins.

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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    This is the textbook "Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it" type of situation.

    Well before the game as the teams were leaving the floor, a Vandy fan's son booed (Wow - A boo. How awful!) Cousins as he was leaving the floor. Cousins flipped him a bird for all to see and held it there for a good 5 to 10 seconds. The father of the kid was shocked and yelled "c'mon man no need for that. Just watch those elbows tonight". Cousins walked over to the two and from two feet away said "Fu%$ You and Fu%$ you too, kid". This happened near section D where UK comes out of the tunnel near the front row and was confirmed by a VU police officer who saw the whole thing.
    Link

    Thats not being a "firey competitor" or an "enforcer", that is called being a classless jerk.

    "We did a live shot right after the game. I see many fans swarming the court. One in particular looked like he was trying to duck the security guards. While he was still bent over, DeMarcus threw what I saw was two little uppercuts. A big fellow like that can throw a much bigger punch than he did. But he definitely swung twice. Somebody from the Kentucky bench, somebody in a suit, grabbed DeMarcus as quickly as it happened and the kids after he got hit."

    Of course, without actual video evidence or any corroborating witnesses, it's pretty tough to start wagging fingers at Cousins. Unfortunately for the Kentucky star, though, someone's coming forward and he just so happens to be the guy Cousins punched (he's going by "Stephen" in an attempt to maintain his anonymity).

    Here's what "Stephen" had to say on Columbia radio:
    "I had my head down, just kind of plowing through crowd, just because you want to get past the girls in the yellow coats. So as I'm doing that, my heads down and I bump into this big body. And, of course, I look up and it's none other than Cousins. I'm like, great, biggest guy in the whole Coliseum right now. First he gives me a little chicken wing and then I get like a cold **** in my right cheek, and man it knocked me for a loop. He gave me at least two good licks."
    Link.

    Ah a guy who punches fans, fits right in with the pacers and our history right? One thing we know about Ron Artest though, he WAS a firey competitor and a defensive enforcer. Unfortunatly, thats not who I think of when I think of Cousins... Who does this quote remind you of?

    Cousins is not the most fundamentally sound player you’ll find, which combined with his below average lateral quickness causes him to get exposed from time to time when being attacked off the dribble by quicker players he’s forced to switch onto. He looks a bit lazy and/or not focused getting back on defense sometimes, something that caused him and Kentucky coach John Calipari to butt heads over on occasion early on in the season.
    Link.

    If you said "Zach Randolph" ....ding ding ding.

    A guy like this? Yeah lets all hope and pray he just magically "matures" when he gets handed a boatload of money upon entering the NBA. And as has already been stated in this thread, bringing in cousins is saying goodbye to Hibbert, because they cannot co-exist. He is a low post scoring center with defensive questions, a complete duplicate... minus the passing.

    Cousins may be more talented than Hibbert, but this is about more than that. You are waving goodbye to an extremily likeable, hard working, and also pretty talented in his own right young prospect for a guy with a ton of baggage and question marks. A high IQ good teammate good passing big man for a more talented, me-first, lazy malcontent.

    While Cousins is without a doubt a precocious talent with the type of physical tools and scoring instincts that you rarely see at the college level, there are many question marks revolving around whether he has the intangibles needed to reach his extremely high potential. His body language and overall temperament on the floor is often very poor, looking somewhat lazy and disinterested and at times downright selfish. He’s clearly not the smartest guy you’ll find on or off the court, and he already tends to react very poorly to different situations on the floor and lose his temper in concerning fashion.
    Link.

    Cousin's is going to be a 20/10 guy easily, but so was Zach Randolph. He looks to me like a malcontent player who will put up big numbers and get a big contract, but he won't help you win. No way this organization takes a risk on him after what they have been through recently, unless you really want to see the pacers move to another city. The guy is clearly a ticking time bomb. It would only take one incident to undo all the good will this team is trying to rebuild with the city of Indianapolis.

    If Cousins is the best player available (and we would pick Favors lightyears before Cousins) then there is a very simple solution. TRADE TRADE TRADE!!!!! That pick is going to be very valuable to a lot of teams and we can certainly get back some very nice assets that don't involve getting rid of Hibbert and actually fit the type of team we are trying to construct.

    This team DOES need players who play with fire, but this team does NOT need Cousins. He's just an *******.
    Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 03-15-2010 at 03:16 PM.
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  14. #61
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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    To be fair, Cousins has been better towards the end of the season. You have to consider, however, that in that same time Favors has really increased his production.

    A "me against the world attitude" seems like a nice thing, but when "the world" includes your coach, the refs, and your teammates, then you have the start of a pretty ugly problem.

    I like Favors a lot, he's quicker and gets up higher. He is also a better fit to slide between the 4 and 5 as the team needs.

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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Cousins' behavior has the makings of just being really young. And frankly the team needs some fire. Favors has made great strides in his game already and is a monster himself.
    Like I mentioned before, AJ had an issue in college, but didn't have frequent problems like Cousins so I don't think Bird is too worried about that.

  16. #63
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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    AJ's issue is/was not the same.

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  18. #64
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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    i chose Favors because I don't see him having much of an attitude problem (from what i've seen and heard, he's a real nice kid), and I think Cousins will be restrained from being a big-time player because of his attitude. He just hasn't showed that he can lose his temper this season. Hopefully that will change for him, though.

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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    This is what no one is talking about. Cousins is almost certainly a full-time center in the NBA, and I'm really skeptical of a Hibbert/Cousins pairing in the frontcourt, for the reasons that you mentioned.
    This I do agree with.

    Favors and Patterson play PF. Both can back down in the post, but they are both used to having a guy who is the primary low post guy (Cousins, Lawal).

    All year the main KY plan is to put Cousins in the post and play off of him.

  20. #66
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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    If you don't want Cousins because he couldn't fit with Hibbert... fine. If you don't want Cousins because of his work ethic... fine. But don't say no to him only because he isn't a boy scout.

    I won't claim to be a good evaluator of talent... if Favors is the better talent, I am all for picking him. But I am getting tired of people dismissing players only because of their attitude. Yes it should be factored into the equation, but it shouldn't be the sole decision maker. I don't know about anyone else, but I'll take winning with thugs over losing with boy scouts any day.
    Last edited by chrisjacobs7; 03-15-2010 at 03:55 PM.

  21. #67
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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisjacobs7 View Post
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    If you don't want Cousins because he couldn't fit with Hibbert... fine. If you don't want Cousins because of his work ethic... fine. But don't say no to him only because he isn't a boy scout.
    It's not black and white. There are shades of gray when discussing the character of one of these players (that we know about), and Cousins's shade seems closer to black than white. Doesn't mean it's "totally clean or get the hell out". This guy looks to be at least a couple notches beyond "minor issues".

    Personally, if I'm the GM, I gamble on "dark side" players, but ONLY if they are part of the supporting cast, NOT one of my core top 2, 3, 4 guys.

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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    This team DOES need players who play with fire, but this team does NOT need Cousins. He's just an *******.
    As I said, BOTH have improved in their trouble areas.

    Favors at times SUCKED this year because he was so lost and unsure of what to do. Not struggle, I mean worthless.

    Now think about that as you watched the ACC tourney or their NCAA game(s).

    It's called maturity and growth. Both needed to learn some lessons, both are better. Both have more room to continue to grow.


    I mean go to the prospect thread and ride the roller coaster with me. I've been saying "go get Patterson" all year, I'm a big fan of Lawal's post game, and I flipped out and said "no no no" to both Cousins and Favors at points this year.

    But the last couple of weeks you see changes, signs where they aren't the same player they were a few months ago.

    And questioning how much a kid can grow in just a semester at that age? Think about your own college experiences and growth. It only took a couple of months for me to go from zero to a strong grasp of differential equations, along with several other classes at the same time. And improved social behavior, etc.

    It's not a shock when an 18-19 year old matures quite a bit in 4-5 months of intense training and experience. I'm not saying that EITHER ONE will for sure settle out just great. Maybe Favors never learns how to play the post like Lawal, because he still isn't there right now. Maybe Cousins does have Harrison moments, or maybe he grows out of it to the point that you look back and wonder how he was so immature at one point.

    Right now Favors is not as good in the post as Cousins, and it's not that close. How wide a gap can you tolerate over attitude concerns?


    The balance on this choice is amazing to me, just like Wall vs Turner. Very interesting draft, but one in which I don't think any of the top 4 teams is facing a bad night.

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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    This team DOES need players who play with fire, but this team does NOT need Cousins. He's just an *******.
    Wow....great post.....IMF for the win......
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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    As I said, BOTH have improved in their trouble areas.

    Favors at times SUCKED this year because he was so lost and unsure of what to do. Not struggle, I mean worthless.

    Now think about that as you watched the ACC tourney or their NCAA game(s).

    It's called maturity and growth. Both needed to learn some lessons, both are better. Both have more room to continue to grow.


    I mean go to the prospect thread and ride the roller coaster with me. I've been saying "go get Patterson" all year, I'm a big fan of Lawal's post game, and I flipped out and said "no no no" to both Cousins and Favors at points this year.

    But the last couple of weeks you see changes, signs where they aren't the same player they were a few months ago.

    And questioning how much a kid can grow in just a semester at that age? Think about your own college experiences and growth. It only took a couple of months for me to go from zero to a strong grasp of differential equations, along with several other classes at the same time. And improved social behavior, etc.

    It's not a shock when an 18-19 year old matures quite a bit in 4-5 months of intense training and experience. I'm not saying that EITHER ONE will for sure settle out just great. Maybe Favors never learns how to play the post like Lawal, because he still isn't there right now. Maybe Cousins does have Harrison moments, or maybe he grows out of it to the point that you look back and wonder how he was so immature at one point.

    Right now Favors is not as good in the post as Cousins, and it's not that close. How wide a gap can you tolerate over attitude concerns?


    The balance on this choice is amazing to me, just like Wall vs Turner. Very interesting draft, but one in which I don't think any of the top 4 teams is facing a bad night.
    I agree with your last point, not because I wan't anything to do with Cousins, but because there will be a lot of teams who will. A #4 pick only has as much trade value as the the value of the available player, and with Cousin's on the board, that is a lot of value.

    However, when there is smoke there tends to be fire, and certain incidents imply certain things about a person's general personality, which doesn't tend to change. Telling 13 year old kids in the stands to **** off and punching opposing fans after a loss, unprovoked, are scary signs about a person's mental makeup. Factor in the role duplication in terms of the promising young center we already have, Factor in a questionable work ethic, there are a myriad of reasons to "just say no" to Cousins.

    You yourself have made the argument in favor of Turner, stating that in terms of John Wall you see the potential, but there is no garentee he "matures" as a player to realize it. If this also applies to Cousins, the evidence is a lot more damning than in Wall's case.

    IF the team didn't have a history with "attitude" players, IF the team had a stronger veteran core of players to help keep Cousins in line, IF Cousins filled a need not already filled by another young prospect.... than maybe... MAYBE.. you think about it. We strike out in all three categories. Are you ready to trade Hibbert to make room for this guy with so many questions? I'm not.

    Trade the pick.
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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    The balance on this choice is amazing to me, just like Wall vs Turner. Very interesting draft, but one in which I don't think any of the top 4 teams is facing a bad night.
    I agree with this......getting a Top 3 pick would be way preferable....getting the 4th pick and assuming that Favors is gone....allows us to have some options to trade down if Cousins isn't the guy we want.

    What I don't want is the 5th to 10th pick....after the 4th pick...it's a crap shoot at that point.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Right now Favors is not as good in the post as Cousins, and it's not that close. How wide a gap can you tolerate over attitude concerns?
    This may be true, but IMO Favors is a heck of a lot better man defender and weak side shot blocker...If you take into account both of their offensive AND defensive games the gap as prospects isn't as far apart as you say it is.

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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    My deciding factor is how prone either of them are to post concussive syndrome or ear infections.

    My draft pick has to have a good immune system.

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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    Cousins is a big body, but he's not that talented nor is he athletic. The NBA is filled with big bodies and Cousins will be proven to be another big stiff.

    Trading Hibbert and keeping Cousins would only be a smart thing if Cousins was Shaq or Duncan-like. ...and he's not close to that.

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    Default Re: Favors or Cousins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    It's not a shock when an 18-19 year old matures quite a bit in 4-5 months of intense training and experience. I'm not saying that EITHER ONE will for sure settle out just great. Maybe Favors never learns how to play the post like Lawal, because he still isn't there right now. Maybe Cousins does have Harrison moments, or maybe he grows out of it to the point that you look back and wonder how he was so immature at one point.

    Right now Favors is not as good in the post as Cousins, and it's not that close. How wide a gap can you tolerate over attitude concerns?
    I agree that I wouldn't fault Bird if he went with either one and they didn't pan out. For me I would rather go with what I do know than what I don't know. I know Cousins can the play in the post and is a alright defender. I don't know if Favors can learn to play the post as effectively as Cousins. To me offense retains its value in the NBA not defense. You give me Cousins 20 and 10 and I can trade that if I don't like his attitude on the team. You give me Favors defense and no headaches off or on the court and I can't trade that for very much in the NBA.

    The argument that Cousins doesn't mesh well with Hibbert is valid but I don't think Hibbert can play 30 some minutes a game, at least not effectively. Plus I don't want to wear out Hibbert.

    The argument that Cousins is a younger version of Zach Randolph is unfair. For one Cousins defense is not nearly as bad as Zachs and there are far less transgressions by Cousins. I also think the HULK was much much more on the edge than Cousins.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 03-15-2010 at 05:31 PM.

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