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Thread: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

  1. #26
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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    I don't think there is any doubt after that 4th quarter. The Pacers are trying to win.
    Fine by me.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuq_e_Zi91 View Post
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    Just a heads up, this game isn't broadcast on any TV stations. Even on League Pass Broadband where they sometimes use the stadium feed, all you can do is listen to the radio feed.
    That's good because I missed it anyway. I was on the digest and noticed RoboDoug had given the final score and wondered what was going on.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    I guess I need to order a custom pacers jersey that says "NOT A TRUE FAN" on the back. Anyone calling another PD member something along those lines needs to shut up.

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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I thought for sure he had earned major minutes with those threes last game..perhaps they were irrelevant though.
    Yes they were irrelevant and I can't believe you honestly thought he should have earned major minutes by hitting a couple shots in a 20 point game when the other team stop playing hard?

    This isn't even anti Josh but how does 3-of-7 shooting, fouling out in 22:12 and posting a -14 when -15 was the game worst while playing most of your time around 20 down warrant major PT?

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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexAustin View Post
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    Yes they were irrelevant and I can't believe you honestly thought he should have earned major minutes by hitting a couple shots in a 20 point game when the other team stop playing hard?

    This isn't even anti Josh but how does 3-of-7 shooting, fouling out in 22:12 and posting a -14 when -15 was the game worst while playing most of your time around 20 down warrant major PT?
    It was somewhat said in Jest..point being that Obie only cares about three ponit shooting..so when Josh made a couple, I figured he'd get more time.

  7. #31
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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexAustin View Post
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    Yes they were irrelevant and I can't believe you honestly thought he should have earned major minutes by hitting a couple shots in a 20 point game when the other team stop playing hard?

    This isn't even anti Josh but how does 3-of-7 shooting, fouling out in 22:12 and posting a -14 when -15 was the game worst while playing most of your time around 20 down warrant major PT?
    Well it's really a simple plan

    A) Use the logic that makes you think that Troy Murphy is worth 40 minutes investment when he's a month past you trying to trade him and appears dead on course to be traded within a year.

    B) Apply generously to McRoberts

    Wow, that was hard to figure out.


    You are 15 games from the finish of a season where you 100% aren't making the playoffs. This is not about winning OR LOSING, it's about how can you make Josh, AJ, Rush, Roy, Danny and DJones better, especially as a group because right now they are 20 times more a part of this team's future.

    So what if Josh sucks or never gets better? WTF are Troy's "development" minutes going to do for the Pacers next April? Jack F'ing Squat.

    Sure, his development now might make Cleveland or Boston better, if in fact he's still at a point where he can see significant benefit from playing 40 minutes every night instead of 18-20.


    There is NO REASON to play Troy so much, or Danny at times even. Going with a 5-6 man rotation when you have said in the press that you are trying to develop the kids is the capper on the pile of BS this year has been.

    We are inches away from Josh getting 5 minutes when the Pacers can only field 4 guys without him.


    Token 10 minutes was 2 months ago, now real teams that really want to get better for next year have moved onto 30+ for the young guys. Freaking Larry Brown has Henderson back out there for 10-12 a night now, and he's the LOW BAR on how much you should play rookies or young players.

    Outdoing him is an insult to development.

    Just by random chance we could get 14 rebounds vs. the Bucks 28 so far with 4:30 to go in the 2nd.
    Yep, and guess what. You had two bigs that got 3 boards in 7 minutes which pans out to 18 in 42 minutes. But instead you played Troy and his "defensive board only" game for those 40 minutes and got 13 to go with 1-6 from 3 and his standard "defense/set picks for the other team".



    The facts are obvious, JOB only wants to work with FINISHED players. He has zero patience or mentality for developing players and riding out their mistakes. He wants to live in a house but he doesn't know how to build one. Meanwhile he's coaching the FEMA trailer version of an NBA team.

    So basically a perfect fit.

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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    What do you think is best for the Murphy and his potential trade value a guy who plays and gets his numbers and averages around a double-double or getting a cut in time and seeing his numbers decline?

    Murphy gives them a better chance to win and JOB doesn't want to lose just to hope some marginal talent gets PT, Many people's tune would change on who they would play if it was their name and job on the line.

    Also Josh has no future with the Pacers once his deal runs out hes gone and these remaining games aren't going to prove anything that's going to make him jump up a depth chart for next year.

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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Meanwhile he's coaching the FEMA trailer version of an NBA team.
    So, you're saying that O'B prefers to construct and inhabit buildings with high levels of formaldehyde so as to preserve the bodies better while harming the others living there who are young and still have more of a chance in life than he does, while not taking care of it because he knows he does not own it or plan on being there for very much longer?

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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexAustin View Post
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    What do you think is best for the Murphy and his potential trade value a guy who plays and gets his numbers and averages around a double-double or getting a cut in time and seeing his numbers decline?

    Murphy gives them a better chance to win and JOB doesn't want to lose just to hope some marginal talent gets PT, Many people's tune would change on who they would play if it was their name and job on the line.

    Also Josh has no future with the Pacers once his deal runs out hes gone and these remaining games aren't going to prove anything that's going to make him jump up a depth chart for next year.
    Teams know exactly who Murphy actually is. They scout him and virtually all teams do the same thing against him defensively -- let him shoot early and cover Granger and Rush instead. When Murphy gets hot, watch the Pacers stagnate offensively. Then, when the team starts to perform well, put the player of your choice from a large shooting guard up to a quick pf within about 6 to 8 feet from him and force him to shoot a little more quickly than he normally does, thereby taking him out of the play by making him miss the shot and being nowhere near the rebound. They also make sure to blow by him every chance they get when he is on defense because they know he will not challenge the drive because he is slow. They also know that Murphy disappears altogether after he plays 20 to 25 minutes, with both his scoring and rebounds declining markedly after that.

    What good does showing Murphy off when he has been in the league as long as he has, and now having established the longest current career in games played without making an appearance in the playoffs?

    Unfortunately, you are right. If we have O'B as coach next year, McRoberts has little to no hope unless he can talk Bird into including him as filler in a trade. Otherwise, a different coach who teaches fundamentals would do Josh a lot of good defensively, and possibly offensively as well.

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  13. #35

    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    Teams know exactly who Murphy actually is. They scout him and virtually all teams do the same thing against him defensively -- let him shoot early and cover Granger and Rush instead. When Murphy gets hot, watch the Pacers stagnate offensively. Then, when the team starts to perform well, put the player of your choice from a large shooting guard up to a quick pf within about 6 to 8 feet from him and force him to shoot a little more quickly than he normally does, thereby taking him out of the play by making him miss the shot and being nowhere near the rebound. They also make sure to blow by him every chance they get when he is on defense because they know he will not challenge the drive because he is slow. They also know that Murphy disappears altogether after he plays 20 to 25 minutes, with both his scoring and rebounds declining markedly after that.

    What good does showing Murphy off when he has been in the league as long as he has, and now having established the longest current career in games played without making an appearance in the playoffs?

    Unfortunately, you are right. If we have O'B as coach next year, McRoberts has little to no hope unless he can talk Bird into including him as filler in a trade. Otherwise, a different coach who teaches fundamentals would do Josh a lot of good defensively, and possibly offensively as well.
    YES! exactly. There is no need to "showcase" Ford, or Murphy, or Dun..other teams know who they are. In fact, we might be better off benching them. Then maybe those other team's might forget...

    In fact, playing McBob helps trade wise. Some GM might think he has potential, and perhaps he becomes a sweetner with our expiring contracts for a player. (Troy and McBob for Okafor maybe..) GM's don't know who Josh is and what he is capable of..if he's worth anything, that is worth knowing.

  14. #36
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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Its not about showcasing his talent, its a perception of value.

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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Murphy will still be a pretty big expiring next year. That's his value. That's not going to change. Teams who want to cut salary won't care if his numbers dipped because we cut down his minutes and his numbers aren't as inflated as normal.

  16. #38
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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Only 2/3rds of our Core players showed up to play today, Roy Hibbert played 29 minutes and contributed 6 pts and 4 rebounds. What happened to those triple double skills everyone was oohing and ahhing about. Roy needs to show up on a more consistent basis. Dude played 4 years of college call and 2 years as a pro now, either he gets it or he doesn't.

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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuq_e_Zi91 View Post
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    Murphy will still be a pretty big expiring next year. That's his value. That's not going to change. Teams who want to cut salary won't care if his numbers dipped because we cut down his minutes and his numbers aren't as inflated as normal.
    Would you rather get a 2nd round pick or a player in return rather just make some money off the deal? Because if he isn't playing you lose the leverage you have if teams are interested in him, Similar to what happened with T.J. Ford who's value was killed with the January benching and couldn't be revived in the few games he played prior to deadline.

  18. #40
    Play McRoberts and Price! BRushWithDeath's Avatar
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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexAustin View Post
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    Would you rather get a 2nd round pick or a player in return rather just make some money off the deal? Because if he isn't playing you lose the leverage you have if teams are interested in him, Similar to what happened with T.J. Ford who's value was killed with the January benching and couldn't be revived in the few games he played prior to deadline.
    If you think that's why T.J. Ford's value went into the toilet then arguing with you is a lost cause.
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    If you think that's why T.J. Ford's value went into the toilet then arguing with you is a lost cause.
    His value was low but not playing for a month put it through the floor, and limited his ability to regain any back.

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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexAustin View Post
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    Its not about showcasing his talent, its a perception of value.
    So, how does playing Murphy, or any other vets at this point, enhance their perceived value?

    They are playing for a team with absolutely no hope of competing this year, that everyone assumes is tanking whether we actually are or not, and against teams that often are phoning it in while these vets are still having difficulty competing.

    C'mon, these are NBA scouts and front offices we are talking about, who have millions of dollars that they are spending on players. They are not fooled by this, which is why it is so shocking that our trading pieces are out there when few think they should be. Really, it is almost like the Pacers are telling the league that these guys are scrubs and that they are not part of our future so they are just playing these vets because our young guys are being protected for the future until we start trying to win games next year (hopefully).

  21. #43
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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Only 2/3rds of our Core players showed up to play today, Roy Hibbert played 29 minutes and contributed 6 pts and 4 rebounds. What happened to those triple double skills everyone was oohing and ahhing about. Roy needs to show up on a more consistent basis. Dude played 4 years of college call and 2 years as a pro now, either he gets it or he doesn't.
    He is still a young player and center is one of the hardest positions to get acclimated to when coming from college. It takes centers time develop and he has not been in the ideal position to develop. The guys' minutes get jerked around all the time with JOB. He has done well given his situation. Now in year 4 if he is still just as streaky then yeah you can pretty much say he does not get it.

    The idea of having to play Murphy to keep up his value is a stretch. These NBA teams know who Murphy is and what he will always be. His value will be in his expiring contract not his actual play on the court. Teams know he is a good role player and some contender will take him on for the year and see what they can do with him.

    There is no point in playing guys starter minutes like Watson, TJ, or Murphy. When need to play guys like AJ, Rush, McRoberts, and Hibbert starter minutes and see what we got in them. If McRoberts fails then who cares becuase we are not losing anything. At least then we can say well we know he cannot handle it and we can move on.

    I just want to see for the rest of the season AJ/Rush/Granger/McRoberts/Hibbert. I do not care if we lose all the games. We are all ready out of the playoffs so might as well see what we have.

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  23. #44
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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Well it's really a simple plan

    A) Use the logic that makes you think that Troy Murphy is worth 40 minutes investment when he's a month past you trying to trade him and appears dead on course to be traded within a year.

    B) Apply generously to McRoberts

    Wow, that was hard to figure out.

    You are 15 games from the finish of a season where you 100% aren't making the playoffs. This is not about winning OR LOSING, it's about how can you make Josh, AJ, Rush, Roy, Danny and DJones better, especially as a group because right now they are 20 times more a part of this team's future.

    So what if Josh sucks or never gets better? WTF are Troy's "development" minutes going to do for the Pacers next April? Jack F'ing Squat.

    Sure, his development now might make Cleveland or Boston better, if in fact he's still at a point where he can see significant benefit from playing 40 minutes every night instead of 18-20.
    Although I agree with you that we should be playing McRoberts more.....but borrowing from one of your rants on him....my reasoning ( for the rest of this season ) is to play him more is not to develop him and build Team Chemistry with Granger/BRush/Inferno/Hibbert. I want to give him a consistent # of minutes so that the FO can properly evaluate whether he ( just like AJ ) should be included as part of the future core of young Players that we want on the roster after the 2010-2011 season. Personally, I think that they should be....with AJ as our future Backup PG and McRoberts as a "4th/5th Big Man that can come in for 10-15mpg game to let our primary Frontcourt PF/C to rest" type of guy....but I don't think that the FO is convinced of that yet. But as you said.....this is something that the FO should have done with him a season ago.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexAustin View Post
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    His value was low but not playing for a month put it through the floor, and limited his ability to regain any back.
    Unless Ford was a Player that was some rookie/sophomore Player that has some untapped potential that was severely hindered by not playing him for a month, I doubt that his value would have changed that drastically with him being benched for a Month. As Brad8888 posted.....these are NBA Scouts and GMs that we are talking about that are very familiar with Players like Ford who has been in the league for several seasons.

    I'd agree with you more if Ford was injured and wasn't allowed to return...cuz some Playing time would be needed in order to show that he's recovered from the injury....but this isn't the case when it comes to Ford. The Ford that we saw before he was benched is the same Ford that we saw after he returned to the lineup. Someone like Larry Brown is very aware of what Ford can and cannot do....sitting him for a Month made no IMHO difference in terms of his trade value.

    Also...the same can be said for Murphy whose been in the league for much longer. Unless Murphy all of a sudden develops a penchant for blocking shots and finds some untapped well of athleticsm in his legs.....what we see of Murphy now at 35 minutes isn't anything different that we will see in 28 minutes a game. In fact, I'd argue that he'd put up a few less points and rebounds but his scoring efficiency would go up while giving up less points to the other team.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    I thought this was funny:

    http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...leavy-on-bench

    Welcome back, Solomon

    Jones played for the first time since O'Brien gave him a one-game suspension two weeks ago because of his poor attitude.

    The forward came off the bench in the fourth quarter to score nine points, including six straight, in just seven minutes of playing time.

    "It was fun, but at the end of the day, those nine points don't matter," Jones said.

    O'Brien kept Jones on the bench the previous five games prior to Sunday despite the Pacers being blown out in several of those contests.

    "Like I said before, it's all about an opportunity and being professional and being mentally strong," Jones said. "I got tested mentally. I got thrown in the fire today and I stepped up to it and played hard and let everything come to me."

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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    The argument has nothing to do with scouting, When you push guys to the bench it projects that the guys are scrubs and your willing to move on from them costing you leverage in potential deals, To exploit maximum value you have to make teams think your willing to keep the player or be willing wait to trade him.

    Plenty of teams are willing to take on expiring deals for cash the Memphis Grizzlies have made living at it, but what would you rather try to get a player or pick in return that could possibly help the club or for the front office to just clear the money.

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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexAustin View Post
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    The argument has nothing to do with scouting, When you push guys to the bench it projects that the guys are scrubs and your willing to move on from them costing you leverage in potential deals, To exploit maximum value you have to make teams think your willing to keep the player or be willing wait to trade him.

    Plenty of teams are willing to take on expiring deals for cash the Memphis Grizzlies have made living at it, but what would you rather try to get a player or pick in return that could possibly help the club or for the front office to just clear the money.
    No it doesn't, team's aren't stupid.

    If other team's saw a lineup which included a lot of Price, McBob, Rush, Hibbert, Solo..it would be very clear that the pacers were going young, not that there was something wrong with TJ or Murphy.

  28. #49
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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    No it doesn't, team's aren't stupid.

    If other team's saw a lineup which included a lot of Price, McBob, Rush, Hibbert, Solo..it would be very clear that the pacers were going young, not that there was something wrong with TJ or Murphy.
    He's going to come up with anything imaginable, even if it makes zero sense apparently, to justify McRoberts not touching the floor. No need to argue with him. 99% of the board agrees with you.
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    Default Re: 03/14/2010 Game Thread 66: Pacers at Bucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    No it doesn't, team's aren't stupid.

    If other team's saw a lineup which included a lot of Price, McBob, Rush, Hibbert, Solo..it would be very clear that the pacers were going young, not that there was something wrong with TJ or Murphy.
    Your right it would show the other teams they are going with youth, thus eliminating all possible value they might have for the vets striping the Pacers of any leverage they could have in getting any value in return.

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