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Thread: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

  1. #26

    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Couple of things, I'd say Charlotte has better finishers and a system condusive to the PG getting a bunch of assists. The Pacers have decent/streaky scorers, average at best finishers (I'd say way below actually), and a system completely devoid almost of PG assist opportunities.

    I'm not knocking Collision, just saying he'd never put those numbers up on this Pacers team, I'm not sure any PG could.
    I fully agree. The Hornets PGs shoulder a lot of the playmaking responsibilities + Collison keeps the ball on his hands for very long stretches during possessions, surveying shots for his teammates.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    Is he still rocking that 2:1 assist to turnover ratio (just slightly worse than our own Earl Watson and not too much better than T.J. Ford)? I still can't believe they scored so many points on the Warriors.

    I'll admit, I'm not watching his games, but the stats aren't that great if you consider TOs too.
    Yeah, he's good in games, but far from great.

    Yesterday they barely beat a bunch of D-Leaguers+undrafted guys+Curry+Devean George.

    Quote Originally Posted by IUfan4life View Post
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    wrong.

    The Hornets should trade paul because of how good collison is. trade him for an up and comer along with a draft pick, and right there you have the makings of a very young talented team. Not to mention that they save tons of money by not having to pay cp3 a max contract.

    just wait and see, he will be traded
    No he won't. You don't trade a player like Chris Paul, a MVP contender, a guy who's widely regarded as the best PG because you have a solid starter like Collison to replace him.

    When you get a player as gifted as Chris Paul you treasure him. You build your franchise around him. You do not under any circumstances trade him without getting a top five talent of similar or younger age back in return.

    Talents like Paul go a long way in making you legit contenders for championships. Collison isn't even a top-5 PG in his own draft down the road. I'm not even sure if he's the best rookie in New Orleans.

    And you'd trade Paul because of him? C'mon. That's almost like trading LeBron James because you just drafted Richard Jefferson.

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  3. #27
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    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaas0532 View Post
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    nice conspiracy theory up there.

    I don't care how he got it, 20 assits or even 15. Still impressive for a rookie that we missed on. It just kind of gets to me that everyone knew before the draft that we needed a PG. This nonsense about how "nobody thought Collison was going be that good" is crap. New Orleans did their homework and drafted him. Our scouting department should have been more thorough.
    Seems you have a problem with the scouting department of this organization. Keep in mind Tyler Hansbrough will be averaging double digits in points and getting to the free throw line 500 times next year. Hibbert was picked 17th and while never having the distinct honor to play in the Schcick Rookie/Soph challenge is getting better by the day. He's post game has vastly improved. He is starting to develop Go To moves. Brandon Rush is not a bad player either. He just does not get headlines. That is not his game.

    Darren Collison would not ever get a scratch of playing time under JOB. He likes bigger guards that are defensive. Collison is small and quick. We saw Rush have a good game w/o Danny you did not crown him. U seem to always have 20/20 hindsight vision via draft. Odds are you are going to change your mind come next week if Ty Lawson has more hilights on ESPN that morning. Bird would have went with Lawson.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    Brandon Rush does have his moments, and I think that he will be an average rotation guy in the NBA. He will never be an all-star, but he never was really supposed to be all that when we drafted him. I don't really have a problem with us drafting Rush. I may have ripped him in previous posts, but I can admit that maybe I was wrong about my evaluation of him.

    I do have a problem with us ignoring a PG for years. We haven't drafted a true starting PG since Jamaal Tinsley way back in 2001. I don't consider Price a starter in this league. I get the whole "safe pick" thing with Hansbrough, but passing on PG's year after year has really contributed to this franchise's demise. I mean Collison was an absolute stud at UCLA. He played in 3 final fours, and was an experienced guy coming out of college.

    I also am not buying "everybody else passed on him, so scouting shouldn't be blamed" either. Collision was drafted number 21 in the first round, so obviously several teams missed, but it wasn't like he fell into the second round. We had a chance to draft a starting PG, whom we all saw heavily in college, and we blew it.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaas0532 View Post
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    I also am not buying "everybody else passed on him, so scouting shouldn't be blamed" either. Collision was drafted number 21 in the first round, so obviously several teams missed, but it wasn't like he fell into the second round. We had a chance to draft a starting PG, whom we all saw heavily in college, and we blew it.
    I have to say that this was just one incredible crop of PGs in this draft. I've never seen anything like it. Evans is really just a ball dominant SG, but even then you've got Curry, Flynn, Jennings, Lawson, Holiday and Collison. And that's not even counting Rubio.

    So you could very well have 7 future starters at PG from this draft. That's unreal. Collison is showing game he never did at UCLA. He's much stronger than he looks and can get into the lane almost anytime. Curry has surprised everyone by just being a PG, period. Most (including myself) saw him as another Ben Gordon undersized SG.

    Even then, though, most non-elite PG prospects are a crap shoot. See guys like Will Avery and Acie Law. Even Raymond Felton. You don't know what you'll get from these guys. So I wouldn't have known what to get from Lawson or Collison, truthfully.

    So I can't really pin blame on the Pacers, but at the same time, it's kind of tough saying that you passed on 3 PGs who will very likely be eventual be starters.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    ...but at the same time, it's kind of tough saying that you passed on 3 PGs who will very likely be eventual be starters.
    Not as tough as saying you passed on Durant to draft Oden. Or drafted Darko instead of Bosh, Wade or Melo. Or ended up with Sam Bowie instead of Jordan. I mean, if we're gonna play the hindsight is 20/20 game with the draft, we should at least bring up the truly horrible examples instead of complaining about players who might(or might not) turn into starters at PG.

    Anyway, I'm not going to be upset with anythign until we find out what we really have in Tyler. If he comes in and is able to play like a wrecking crew like he did at UNC I would be pretty happy with that. That would take some of the sting out.
    Last edited by travmil; 03-11-2010 at 12:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    Not as tough as saying you passed on Durant to draft Oden. Or drafted Darko instead of Bosh, Wade or Melo. Or ended up with Sam Bowie instead of Jordan.

    Anyway, I'm not going to be upset with anythign until we find out what we really have in Tyler. If he comes in and is able to play like a wrecking crew like he did at UNC I would be pretty happy with that. That would take some of the sting out.
    As an aside: On the issue of Oden/Durant, of course there is no way I would have taken Oden if I knew his injuries would turn out as such. But if in the next draft there is a bigman as talented as Oden and a scorer as talented as Durant, I would take the bigman. Everyone talks about how defense wins championships. They preach it everytime Duncan beats Nash in the playoffs. If you preached it like you really meant it, you would take a talented bigman who was billed as the best defensive prospect since Bill Russell. Even Don Nelson was asked who he'd prefer (pre-draft), and he said he'd take Oden. Perhaps because it's because he played with a big guy named Russell who was pretty good at defense.

    As for Hansbrough, we don't know for sure yet, but that wrecking ball style he played in college could have had a cumulative effect on his head that resulted in the current injury that's keeping him out. If that is indeed the cause, it's probably not wise for his long term health (and I'm talking about his personal health after basketball) to play that way.

    The real issue (and not that the Pacers would have predicted) is that they skipped taking a PG in a PG heavy draft in favor of a PF, and now they're headed into a draft this year that is laden with PFs.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player...playerId=26892

    link to Collison's college stats. Impressive numbers from his Soph-Senior years. Good scoring, assits, and FG%.

    I think what happened with Collison, and why he fell to 21, is the faulty logic that 4 year college players hurt their draft stock. Same thing happened to Granger when he fell to 17. There is no way that unproven guys like Jordan Hill should have been drafted ahead of Collison.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaas0532 View Post
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    There is no way that unproven guys like Jordan Hill should have been drafted ahead of Collison.
    FWIW, Jordan Hill was a 3 year college player who went for 18/11/1.7 his last year there. He had a very solid college career.

    Granger fell because of concerns about his knees.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    Granger fell to 17 because he had a knee surgery during college. If you want to get technical, Granger was actually more than a 4 year college player because he had the surgery AND sat out a sememster because of the transfer from Bradley to New Mexico.

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  13. #35

    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    Collison fell because he doesn't have many high-level talents and lacks elite athleticism. Plus he likes the ball on his hands a little too much.

    I wouldn't care much for acquiring Collison. He'll never be more than a slightly above average PG, IMO. Calderon, Felton territory. I'd rather acquire Felton, btw.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    The real issue (and not that the Pacers would have predicted) is that they skipped taking a PG in a PG heavy draft in favor of a PF, and now they're headed into a draft this year that is laden with PFs.
    That's a great point.

    Of course, the last time a draft was *this solid* at PG, we took George McCloud and passsed on Tim Hardaway, Pooh Richardson, Mookie Blaylock, Dana Barros, BJ Armstrong, and even second-rounders Sherman Douglass and Heywoode Workman.

    But look at the top-ten in that draft. That's an embarassment to just about everybody. And Uncle Cliffy -- sitting there in the middle of the second round -- played the most career games over everybody else in the draft.
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    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    Quote Originally Posted by nerveghost View Post
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    Thank goodness East powerhouse Orlando took Fran Vazquez at #11 instead of Danny Granger. Who else went before Granger? Yaraslav Korolev...Sean May...Rashad McCants...Antoine Wright....Joey Graham....I guess we can't take credit for the Granger pick - he just fell in our laps. We HAD to take him, right? The Pacers must have just got lucky...

    Ah...2006. The year of Shawn Williams. A man of unlimited potential...and as it turned out...unlimited stupidity. Well, we probably could have taken a flyer on Rondo at 21. Or we could have taken Olexsiy Pecherov, Quincy Douby, Marcus Williams, Maurice Ager, Mardy Collins, or Joel Freeland. I mean, hey, why swing for the fences with a pick like Shawn Williams, when you could play it safe and draft Josh Boone?

    A comment and a question.


    The Fran Vasquez pick must be one of the greatest chokes of all time. As I recall, he never really wanted to play in the NBA, but the Magic didn't believe him, and picked him. Then when he didn't come over the first year, they held out hope that he would come over in the future...but it looks like he was serious about staying in Europe. I wonder how he is doing now?


    Question: As I recall, there was somebody we supposedly "really wanted" before Shawne Williams, and when he got picked, we had to settle for a weak second choice. Does anyone remember who that was? Maybe even a Memphis teammate? I'm not sure.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    Question: As I recall, there was somebody we supposedly "really wanted" before Shawne Williams, and when he got picked, we had to settle for a weak second choice. Does anyone remember who that was? Maybe even a Memphis teammate? I'm not sure.
    I'm pretty sure Rodney Carney went the pick ahead of Shawne and they were teammates, but I'm pretty sure after the draft that we said we wanted Shawne all along. I could be wrong, though. And obviously we are going to say we got who we wanted no matter what.
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    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    Quote Originally Posted by USF View Post
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    I'm pretty sure Rodney Carney went the pick ahead of Shawne and they were teammates, but I'm pretty sure after the draft that we said we wanted Shawne all along. I could be wrong, though. And obviously we are going to say we got who we wanted no matter what.
    yeah, that sounds right...
    i know the pacers never said publicly that they really wanted Carney, but there was lots of speculation

    well, Carney has not turned out that great either (though obv better than Shawne), so no great loss, I guess

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    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    sorta OT, but speaking of ridiculous (inflated) assist #s, if you got to the Pacers-Denver game if you have LPBB, at 4:45 in the 3rd McBob gets an assist for passing the ball to Murphy at the 3 pt arc, who then takes a couple dribbles and makes a floater in the lane...

    cant even blame home court scorekeeper there

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    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    You can't judge how good a team is on scouting and drafting by who they pass on. If you did that then almost every team would have terrible scouting and drafting. Look at the second rounders who become stars like gunslinger Arenas before this year and before his injuries everyone thought he was a steal and there are many more examples of late first and second round steals.

    You have to judge your scouting and drafting on what your players do. No matter why Granger was passed up on in the draft we drafted him big plus for us. That made our scouting look great, then Shawne came along and made us look bad. Out of Rush and Hibbert, form where they were drafted they make us look good. Especially Hibbert at 17. Ever since we have been drafting in the lottery to mid 1st round we have done pretty good if you look at it. 2005 Granger, 2006 Bad Williams, 2007 no pick, 2008 Rush Hibbert, 2009 Hansbrough. Not bad potentially 3 starters (who knows a boout Tyler).

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    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers74 View Post
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    You can't judge how good a team is on scouting and drafting by who they pass on.

    Not sure I agree with this. If one watched Danny at the end of the his last season, he wa a monster and very healthy.

    The concerns on him were similar to Carl Landry, who supposedly had knee issues and was undersized, despite not actually being undersized (6'9" as compared to 6'7" or 6'8"). Landry was playing very well too.

    Teams get caught up in potential and "next next Dirk" and don't put all guys under the same microscope.

    I guess I could agree if someone overhead is calling the shots and ignoring the scouting department, but then why have one?

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    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
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    Keep in mind Tyler Hansbrough will be averaging double digits in points and getting to the free throw line 500 times next year.
    Dude, we don't know if Tyler will play double-digit GAMES next year, let alone how many points he'll score.
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    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I don't think Collison would have been the same player here that he has been with the Hornets. I think playing behind Paul has helped tremendously, and I think playing in a system built around Paul has helped as well.
    Yea.. Its pretty hard to get dimes when your teammates sit at the 3pt line the majority of the time.

    I think assists are overrated but 20 is still a nice number.

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    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    I wish we would have done the draft deal with Chicago and got their two pick they used on Gibson and Johnson. Bird would have went with Lawson and Sam Young and they would have helped out this organization more than Tyler did this year.

    I am fine with Tyler but our team lacks speed and athleticism two attributes he does not rank very high in.

  27. #46

    Default Re: Darren Collison gets 20 assists!

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    A comment and a question.


    The Fran Vasquez pick must be one of the greatest chokes of all time. As I recall, he never really wanted to play in the NBA, but the Magic didn't believe him, and picked him. Then when he didn't come over the first year, they held out hope that he would come over in the future...but it looks like he was serious about staying in Europe. I wonder how he is doing now?
    As I recall it, Vazquez gave no indication he'd sign a new contract in Spain before the draft. He stayed because he got a big contract offer (so big that the club which signed him went bankrupt a couple of years later) and his girlfriend didn't want him to leave.

    He's been doing fairly well - after a period where he looked destined to be a massive bust -, playing for Barcelona's stellar team, along with Pacers' pick Lorbek and Rubio. He's one of the most athletic bigs in Europe, so he's always good for a couple of alley-oops from Rubio every game. He'd be a very useful player for most NBA teams.


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