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Thread: Hoop data's salary information - and our $40mm in cap holds??

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    Default Hoop data's salary information - and our $40mm in cap holds??

    I don't understand this.

    Hoopdata has a detailed salary page, and for the Pacers they mention we have over forty million dollars in cap holds.

    What confuses me is that it lists all of these players that are somehow "cap holds" that count against our salary cap unless they are renounced or re-signed.

    Easily the biggest listed cap hold is Rik Smits at $18,550,000.

    But surely the Pacers have done whatever is necessary to clear that 18.5mm off the cap, so then why is hoopdata still listing him, and the others?

    There's no way we could be functioning if all of these cap holds were counting against our total salary, so then why are they even listed?

    http://www.hoopdata.com/salaries/IND.aspx

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    Default Re: Hoop data's salary information - and our $40mm in cap holds??

    Regardless the situation, this is interesting. Some of those players haven't been on the team for over ten years.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoop data's salary information - and our $40mm in cap holds??

    That cannot be correct - not even close to being correct. Although I have no idea what "cap holds" mean. never heard of it.

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    Default Re: Hoop data's salary information - and our $40mm in cap holds??

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    That cannot be correct - not even close to being correct. Although I have no idea what "cap holds" mean. never heard of it.
    VERY simply, a cap hold is for players you have an option to re-sign, and it means that those salaries count against your cap when it comes to signing new players and FAs. In other words, you can't wait to sign your own FAs (which contract-wise would mean you are under the cap) and sign new FAs (or trade using under-the-cap status), THEN sign your own FAs (which you can do even if you are over the cap).

    I am confused about how retired players would still apply, so I think this list is sort of bogus.
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    Default Re: Hoop data's salary information - and our $40mm in cap holds??

    LaSalle Thompson is still on the Pacers roster?

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    Looking like a season JB24's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoop data's salary information - and our $40mm in cap holds??

    I'm guessing Smits (and Hardaway, Tabak etc...) never officially retired. They can just be renounced like any other FA when 2011 rolls around.

    It's too bad the team wasn't a contender these past few seasons. Smits' contract could have been a very valuable trading chip in this climate.

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoop data's salary information - and our $40mm in cap holds??

    i seem to recall we've discussed this before. basically the pacers have never renounced rik, and he never officially retired.

    rik smits' cap hold was referenced in this article back during the gasol trade

    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...uld-get-traded

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    Default Re: Hoop data's salary information - and our $40mm in cap holds??

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    VERY simply, a cap hold is for players you have an option to re-sign, and it means that those salaries count against your cap when it comes to signing new players and FAs. In other words, you can't wait to sign your own FAs (which contract-wise would mean you are under the cap) and sign new FAs (or trade using under-the-cap status), THEN sign your own FAs (which you can do even if you are over the cap).

    I am confused about how retired players would still apply, so I think this list is sort of bogus.
    It's not bogus: those players have never officially retired.

    Why would the Pacers care about Smits cap hold, for example? Thy never had cap space, so they never needed to remove his cap. Once they have cap space (or are in a position to have it), they'll renounce to Smits rights therefore removing the cap hold (this Summer in the case they keep the expirings contracts in their books till the end of the season).

    Having those cap-holds in the books doesn't really hurt a team and can be very useful because those players can be used as salary fillers in trades:

    Re-signed forward Keith Van Horn and traded him with guards Devin Harris, Trenton Hassell and Maurice Ager, forward Keith Van Horn, center DeSagana Diop, first-round picks in 2008 and 2010 and cash to the New Jersey Nets for guard Jason Kidd and Antoine Wright and forward Malik Allen; waived forward Nick Fazekas.
    The Los Angeles Lakers have acquired forward Pau Gasol in a trade with the Memphis Grizzlies, it was announced today by General Manager Mitch Kupchak. The Lakers will also receive the Grizzlies second round draft choice in 2010. In exchange Memphis will receive forward Kwame Brown, guard Javaris Crittenton, guard Aaron McKie (who the Lakers signed earlier today), the draft rights to Marc Gasol and first round picks in 2008 and 2010.
    Last edited by cordobes; 03-08-2010 at 10:22 AM.

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoop data's salary information - and our $40mm in cap holds??

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    But surely the Pacers have done whatever is necessary to clear that 18.5mm off the cap, so then why is hoopdata still listing him, and the others?

    There's no way we could be functioning if all of these cap holds were counting against our total salary, so then why are they even listed?
    rik smits' cap hold (and all the others) don't actually have an effect on our current financial situation. if anything, it's a potential asset in sign and trades, as jb24 notes, and also the truehoop article i linked to.

    if we get under the cap in 2011, we'll have to renounce all those cap holds in order to use our cap space. that's the only time it will be relevant.

    edit: yeah what cordobes said

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    Default Re: Hoop data's salary information - and our $40mm in cap holds??

    Can you use a cap hold as salary filler? A cap hold isn't a contract, it's just funny money that keeps GMs from gaming the salary cap system.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Hoop data's salary information - and our $40mm in cap holds??

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Can you use a cap hold as salary filler? A cap hold isn't a contract, it's just funny money that keeps GMs from gaming the salary cap system.
    Yeah, but you could sign Rik Smits to an unguaranteed contract for $10mil, trade him, and let the other team cut him.

    The NBA frowns on it but it's legal under the current CBA.
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    Default Re: Hoop data's salary information - and our $40mm in cap holds??

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Can you use a cap hold as salary filler? A cap hold isn't a contract, it's just funny money that keeps GMs from gaming the salary cap system.
    Well, you can use a cap hold to sign the player, then trade him as filler.

    Yes, the core purpose is to keep the GM's from gaming the system, but a side effect is a potential asset.

    Now, it would certainly test the rules to sign Rik Smits to a 3-year deal (only one guaranteed) to make him a cap filler, but it's theoretically possible.

    All in all, these are just simple bookkeeping mechanisms that are easily dismissed should that become necessary.

    The meaningful capholds are for players that you may want to keep. For example, the Knicks could have enough cap space to sign two max players next year, but they'd have to renounce all of their free agents, including David Lee, to do it.

    For the Pacers, it is likely that they will renounce the rights to some of their expiring contracts (Ford, Foster, Murph, Dunleavy) in 2011, but they may not renounce all of them. They are not required to renounce the player until they need the cap space.

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    Default Re: Hoop data's salary information - and our $40mm in cap holds??

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Yeah, but you could sign Rik Smits to an unguaranteed contract for $10mil, trade him, and let the other team cut him.

    The NBA frowns on it but it's legal under the current CBA.
    For a sign and trade, the contract must be at least three years in length.

    However, only the first year is required to be guaranteed.

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    Default Re: Hoop data's salary information - and our $40mm in cap holds??

    so wait.....if a player doesnt "officially retire" and the team doesnt renounce him....then what is he, a quitter??? im very confused by all this lingo of such, and i feel like that if you dont play ball you should have to retired of such. Man you just wait till i see rik next time, im going to demand he come back and play ball!!!
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    Default Re: Hoop data's salary information - and our $40mm in cap holds??

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    VERY simply, a cap hold is for players you have an option to re-sign, and it means that those salaries count against your cap when it comes to signing new players and FAs. In other words, you can't wait to sign your own FAs (which contract-wise would mean you are under the cap) and sign new FAs (or trade using under-the-cap status), THEN sign your own FAs (which you can do even if you are over the cap).

    I am confused about how retired players would still apply, so I think this list is sort of bogus.
    If I remember an article about Rik correctly, players have to sign a paper saying they have retired. If they don't then they haven't officially retired.

    Cap holds are used to prevent teams from signing free agents before signing their own players. Say Danny was a free agent and we wanted to resign him. Since you can go over the cap to sign your own players we could sign someone else first then sign Danny. A cap hold of a certain amount of his projected salary prevents that.
    Last edited by Will Galen; 03-08-2010 at 12:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Hoop data's salary information - and our $40mm in cap holds??

    It's great to see how much we'll be saving and owing in 2011-2012.

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