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Thread: Youth development tracking and discussion

  1. #1
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Youth development tracking and discussion

    Well in a quest for some positives it struck me that for all our complaining about the PT the kids are getting, we really don't have a lot of discussion of their actual games and how they are coming along.

    So what I'm thinking here is a JOB COMPLAINT FREE zone. You enter this thread knowing the hard facts there and accepting them. No one is madder than me about it.

    But the kids will get time here and there at least, and that time and effort is what I want to talk about.


    Also I want real critical discussion, so let's take off the gloves and not get worked up about negatives. On the flip side, I'd like this discussion to not be full of "Rush sucks" or "Josh is so overrated" talk.

    What I'd like to see is discussion of what guys are doing better, what they need to work on, and have all this stuff based on specific plays or moments from games.

    There's not much joy left to the season, but I think most of us agree that following the kids is one of those joys. So let's focus on that.


    The guys I have in mind would be Roy, Rush, Price, Josh, Tyler (when/if he returns)...and I think some DJones and Danny discussion fits a little too since they would appear to be part of the future too.


    Here's one - I think Rush has an issue with "comfort shots". He's got plenty of moves to get places, but he looks very unsure of how to finish a lot of these plays. He had a couple of short arm jumpers vs PHX that looked just like this.

    I'd like to see him get some really go-to moves. Does he have any now, situation where you see it coming? Maybe the 3 when he is catching it in rhythm, but off his dribble stuff?


    Roy - his passing game is really strong, I like his lobs over the top from the high post.

    His low post game needs some work. He's got moves but he tends to rush shots quite often. Not sure why, but I do think that's a youth thing.

    Tonight he had an almost great play where he was low posted and dumped it to a cutter (Price I think) who then kicked it to the opposite wing. Roy used that to come across the lane and repost with the ball coming right back to him. So far so good, really smart ball. But then he just went quickly up with a rushed flip for no good reason rather than setting himself into a true shot move.


    Price - I like his game, but I need to see his assist to FGA ratio come up.

    His strength seems to be two man game. One thing Roy and Josh do is come to him well for PnR work. Both get off the PnR pretty clean usually so there is real potential there.

    But at other times Price will just drive for his own mid-jumper. I hope this is more to do with JOB then AJ.


    Josh - well I like his above the rim game. TJ tossed one over the top with Josh trying to pull a high post backdoor cut, but PHX was all over it and really it was a bad TJ choice. However Josh's vert and lateral quickness got him to the ball and actually drew a foul. That's why I'm enamored with prospects that have vert and lateral, there are so many spontaneous plays that require those skills.

    He needs to always be the guy the guards look to for finishes on transitions because he does get out well and run.

    Right now his weakpoint is awareness, especially on defense. He let Nash just come right in because he was worried about the pass going to his man. Gotta protect the rim first, even if it means getting burned behind. That falls on the next rotation guy.

    On offense he has off and on moments. Pretty clearly to me he has a set number of things he's prepared to do, and if those aren't applicable then he kind of stiffens up. He needs to expand his comfort with more offensive situations.





    Naturally ALL the players will require PT to improve these things. Like I said, I'm not faulting any of them for having bad points. But that doesn't make those problems go away.

    Think of this thread as more like "what will the NEW coach think about these guys, and what will he have them work on".


    Oh, btw, I think Danny badly needs to focus on his defensive play. He's become a slightly below average on ball defender this year.

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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    Cool thread.

    One thing I was thinking about tonight while watching the game was how I want Roy to work on becoming a power player when he gets the offensive reb or gets a nice dish within 3 feet of the basket. I want him to work on the 2 handed power dunk all summer. He has the tools to over power almost anyone in the league when close to the basket, but he seems to always try to finesse it in.

    Tonight I saw him get the O. Reb and instead of gripping the ball hard with 2 hands and going up strong to dunk it, he tried to do some one handed layup. He got fouled by a tiny guard and went to the line and made the FTs (he is a badass FT shooter) but it could've been an 'and 1' and really intimidated the other team.

    If he can add the power game it might put him in the elite level of centers.

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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    I think Danny has been pretty good defensively since the injury. He looked terrible before that playing on one foot. Just a few nights ago he poked the ball away from Kobe at end of the first half. Irrelevant though because he stupidly grabbed him afterwords. But still he shows he has the skill to be an on ball defender, I think his size makes it easy to get caught on a screen though.

    I think Brandon is a good player its too bad that he is judged by how many points he gets, because thats not his game really. Maybe he won't be a starter, but he can be the defensive stopper on any team.
    Last edited by graphic-er; 03-07-2010 at 01:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    Price -

    Well, I know his game better than mosts, so I'll start with clearing a few things up.
    (this isn't JOB bashing, what I'm about to do. It's just the facts about Price)
    AJ Price is an "all around" type of point guard. Good to decent at everything.

    However, and this is a positive and a negative..he's a chameleon. He does, exactly what the coach tells him to do. When he gets freedom to do what he wants he makes very good decisions, but, when instructed..he does exactly what the coach wants. Which isn't necessarily bad, but it's hard to get a read on Price's game that way. But the point is, he's not going to be "one type of player" his game will change with the coach.

    Normal Price things: that little run he has a tendency to go on, whether he triggers it or goes on it by himself. He does look to score, but he makes good decisions on when to do that and when not to do that. The sagging back on defense, he has a tendency to not trust the bigger guys (old Uconn habbit) and obviously the pick and roll.

    So, all that said here's positives: He looks for Roy, I agree, he's best at a two man game, and excels with the pick and roll. I actually think that's part of the reason he's shooting more than normal, because when teams pick who they are going to guard in a pick and roll..they leave Price and double Hibbert, leaving Price kind of open. He also takes good shots. Sometimes he's aggressive and looking for his shot, but the shot he actually takes is a good one.

    Negatives: He loses his man defensively sometimes. Last night he played great defense, but he can get lost. I think that's "rookieness" seeing as he didn't do that in college.

    Shooting is inconsistent. Once again, I think that'll come in time.

    He seems to be "unsure" of the role he needs to take. He's naturally a "take controll" type of player. In fact, that was my favorite thing about his game. He could control a game better than any point I've seen in college. (Note, control is different than "taking over") Now, I think he feels he's the rookie, and that's his place. And I think that's right. But I think sometimes he looks unsure of himself. I think it's completely a "vets" thing, because he does not do that at all with the younger guys in. It's just a case of him being a rookie and knowing his place, but not knowing how to act in his place.

    Rush-
    I have to be honest, Rush has become my second favorite Pacer, and personally I don't find him the least bit frustrating.

    I think him, more than anyone, needs to be in a structured offense. And he is completely more of a "fill in" type of player, offensively. And defensively he's outstanding.

    I really really hope he doesn't get traded. He has all the talant in the world, he just needs to be in the right system with the right players around him. And I actually think the younger group, is a collection of players that are good for his game.

    Positives:
    Um, defense. Really, his defense on Bryant was outstanding. His defense the whole year has been outstanding.

    Shooting. He started off bad, but he's been shooting quite well lately. He has a really pretty shot.

    Passing and ballhandling..I mean really, the guy has all the skills needed to be a fanstastic player.

    Shot selection..omg. The one player on the team getting consistent minutes that doesn't take two or three god awful shots per game.

    negatives..I don't want him to be more aggressive, it's good to have a bit of yin with our yang..however, he can be laid back, and still impact the game offensively a little more.

    Hibbert..once again, a really likeable player. I really want Bill L. to coach this team next, because of what I think he can do for Hibbert, McBob, and Hans. Hibbert more than any of them, because I feel like He needs to be more aggressive at times. He very soft. His soft touch is nice at times, But sometimes I'd like him just to go in for a dunk..power it in.

    Positives: His hook shot is fantastic. really fantastic.
    Passing..he's a good passer out of the double team. Sometimes I think he passes out a little too much, but I like that he does it. That's rare for a big guy.

    Negatives: As I said, I think he's a little soft, and I think his conditioning and such needs to improve.

    McBob
    I have to say I think I was wrong about him. I thought he could be "barely" a role player. But I actually think he's capable of being a rotation player on a quality team. He's got the energy/athleticism down.

    Positives: ..energy and athleticism I think his offensive rebounding is better than people give him credit for. Shots go up so quickly it's hard to do it, but his hands get on quite a few.

    Passing. Once again, another very good passer for a big guy.

    negatives: shooting. He needs a jump shot, more offense really.
    I'm not sure his hands are that great either.
    Last edited by Sookie; 03-07-2010 at 01:52 AM.

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  9. #5
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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    Thank you for this wonderful idea first of all. Illtry to make it short, I'm tired. But I've been thinking about this for a long time.

    Rush- Rush needs to, most importantly, learn how to fight screens and picks better, so that in the future Roy won't have to be depended on to stop penetration.

    Rush also needs to work on off-the-ball movement and backdoor cuts, along with better finishing at the rim. It's not a "confidence" thing, its more like a "When I get in the paint, I don't know what to do because I'm not familiar with getting in there and banging with the big guys, often causing missed close shots." The reason he misses so many layups is because he hasn't worked on it all that much.

    Roy- Roy needs to get better at "turning it on". He has shown flashes of being aggresive, and I wouldn't mind him being overly aggressive. I'd rather him be more like KG or Dwight than Timmy and Smits when it comes to gameplay. Roy needs to work on understanding that he is usually the second best player on the team, barring a Danny injury or Rush playing well.

    Roy also needs to polish his game, and something else. He needs to "open up" like Timmy (and now Howard ) does. His shot is so soft that he doesn't even need to hit backboard anyway. It would also be great if he could turn into a reliable pick n pop guy as well as (suprisingly) 80% FT shooter.

    As Roy gets more time to work on his game, I'm sure that post defense is at the top of his list. Of course none of our guys are defensive wizards, so Roy will occasionally have to go one-on-one with the likes of Dwight, Amare, and Bogut, and Bargnani. He needs to work on taking bumps, and just altering shots instead of attempting the monster block.

    AJ- AJ needs to become a better perimeter shooter. His shot is decent, but since it looks pretty, if he works on it, it only makes sense that it will get better.

    AJ needs to make better decisions in traffic as well as on the break. He also has some defensive potential, and I'd like to see him become a guy who picks off alot of passes and digs into big men in the post causing a strip on them.

    AJ also needs to get those assist numbers up, and become even better at the PnR situation. Understand who he's going with, and try to draw more fouls. The best thing for him is having a very high assist-to-turnover ratio if he wants to be the "high +/-" guy on the team like Ty Lawson or Kirk Hinrich in the playoffs.

    Josh- Needs to work on his perimeter game. He reminds me so much of an athletic version of Brad Miller it is not even funny. He makes very good passes, works his butt off, and is always looking for the big play. If he gets the perimeter game going, as well as a strong and quick first step, he could be huge for us. He also needs to become a better FT shooter.

    Josh also seems to suprisingly be the best guy for a fast break for us. Whether he's the one dribbling or filling the lanes, he never screws up. Thats what I love about him. He makes a huge percentage of his shots, and he will never overdo it, and he always looks very comfortable and poise on the court. He's afraid of nothing, and he's ready for whatever.

    He also makes alot of his shots.

    Tyler- On the other hand, Tyler can't get anything to go in besides a FT as opposed to Josh. Tyler is strong as Scott Steiner, and he is a very good post defender. He needs to soften his dang shot or just go bank all the time (Of course that would make him the laughing stock of the league). Tyler needs to work on rebounding and boxing out, as well as finishing when he does get an offensive board.

    Tyler can give people problems, but for god sakes don't put him against a small forward going small. He has very bad lateral quickness, and when an opposing team goes small, he's good for nothing. So in that case, Tyler needs to be a better rebounder and learn how to take smaller, weaker guys in the post to hurt the other team.

    Tyler also needs to take it easy and get healthy, but I'm positive he's working on that. If Tyler can get healthy and smoothen his shot, he's got a bright future with us.

    Danny- Yes, Danny is a young guy for us too. Danny needs to learn that his teammates can take over games too, well one day they can. Danny needs to stay in games, and when the scoring load is off of him, he needs to become one of the best defenders in the league, which I'm sure he can do. When he plays very good defense, he is scary. He is good at picking off passes and shotblocking, and he needs to understand that contesting shots and boxing out is just as, if not more important than the highlight play. His man-to-man is very good when he wants it to be, but I'm sick of sad guys like Luol Deng and Grant Hill going off on him because he wants to play offense and get in a footrace with the likes of Derrick and Steve, which we cannot do.

    Danny also needs to improve his outside shot, just to make it more deadly, and probably leadership. He is the guy, like Reggie who comes to practice early and stays late. But I want him to be a motivational leader as well, just like Roy as this team grows. The team trusts in these guys and they get fired up when these guys are working there asses off. Thats when I love to watch the games.

    He also needs to become a more explosive scorer, scoring in bursts, unlike what he does now. If he can;

    1) Come down one possesion, and make a layup or mid-ranger
    2) Get a steal, and hit a three
    3) Get in the high or low post, and score in there

    Then you have to double him, giving Rush and Wall the opportunity to hit the perimeter shot or make a play. Unfortunately, he takes plays off, so no one has to worry about him going off on a defender, unless it is Sonny Weems or something.

    Danny should also work on his intangibles. He should work towards averaging 7 rebounds, 1.5 steals, 1 block, and setting screens and picks. He also needs to get a post game going, so that he can deliver passes by the dozen and get his shot off against smaller and weaker defenders, like Carmello does on a daily basis to Dahntay Jones. Right now, it wouldn't matter if we put Danny of Dahntay, because Danny would try to pull up instead of posting him up or driving on Dahntay.

    I'll come up with more tomorrow, I'm brain dead.
    "I keep wondering the same thing. Last week they had the 4th worst record in the league, had an 11.9 percent chance of winning the lottery and were in line to land a franchise type player like Derrick Favors or DeMarcus Cousins. This week? They have a 1.7 percent chance of winning the lottery, have the 8th worst record and are in line to draft Cole Aldrich or Greg Monroe. Way to go Jim O'Brien. Rest Danny Granger the rest of the season (if it isn't too late) and give Josh McRoberts lots of minutes. That ought to do it." - Chad Ford on winning meaningless games

    Way to go Jim, you may have just put our franchise back another 4+ years.

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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    Oh yeah, Josh's defense isn't very good. It has all kinds of potential especially since he added those 25 lbs.

    He tries to pinch the PnR which leaves the big guy open while Josh tries to pick off the pass in the middle. I'm sure he got away with it in Duke and Carmel High, but it won't work with some of the best players in the world.

    He contests every shot, and he's not afraid to get dunked on. You have to love the fact that he will do whatever it takes to get a fast break going, or to disrupt a team's flow.

    Josh needs to work on his post defense as well. Since his is originally built kind of lanky compared to the stars in this league, he needs to add more bulk, and get a stronger center of gravity so that he can hold his own against low post monsters looking to gobble people like Josh up.
    "I keep wondering the same thing. Last week they had the 4th worst record in the league, had an 11.9 percent chance of winning the lottery and were in line to land a franchise type player like Derrick Favors or DeMarcus Cousins. This week? They have a 1.7 percent chance of winning the lottery, have the 8th worst record and are in line to draft Cole Aldrich or Greg Monroe. Way to go Jim O'Brien. Rest Danny Granger the rest of the season (if it isn't too late) and give Josh McRoberts lots of minutes. That ought to do it." - Chad Ford on winning meaningless games

    Way to go Jim, you may have just put our franchise back another 4+ years.

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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    Has anyone noticed that, since New Years, Rush is shooting .446 from three (don't think those numbers count tonight's game).

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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    Rush is a pretty good defender when he's trying. At one point tonight he routed Amar'e into Murph in transition and blocked his shot from behind,leading Denari to incorrectly say that Murphy blocked his shot. It was a "wow" moment imo. He definitely has the smarts and physical ability to be a great stopper.

    The most startling improvement in Danny's game this season IMO is Danny's passing. He's pretty capable when he tries. His assist numbers are low and that's for 3 simple reasons: 1) he makes "hockey assist" plays more than actual assist situations. 2) when he does make a pass that could be an assist, the other player doesn't always convert. This isn't the most talented team,as we all know... 3) He doesn't pass enough. He's made some good plays with his passing on this road trip (tonight setting up Hibbert with a nice bounce pass).
    Pacers,baby!

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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    This is an exceptionally difficult thread to post in because we have not seen most of the young guys in a traditional basketball game with good fundamental play in a system that maximizes the strengths that are available on our roster at the NBA level. Just an observation, not an attempt at a bash.

    That said, Josh struggles with when to stick to his own part of the "perimeter" defensively vs. when to actually play defense on the ball to protect the rim because of a combination of a lack of experience and a fear that making mistakes will send him to the bench. Again, just an observation. Also, he needs to work on his free throws and conditioning, but again, true conditioning to play at the NBA level comes in games.

    Josh is, however a strong finisher, truly passes and has vision for the flow of the game offensively, and is our best player for finishing fast breaks besides Granger.

    AJ hasn't played enough to get confidence with his shooting, which needs improvement. He also dribble penetrates a little too much, but is doing what he is told to do as all of our point guards do.

    AJ makes good decisions for the most part once he drives. He also is a good passer overall who would do better in a different style of offense that is more structured and geared toward forcing defenses to react to movement.

    Tyler. Unfortunately, we have probably never seen a truly healthy Tyler since he has been here. He is a good agressive player who frustrates opponents and knows how to get to the line. Otherwise he is VERY raw and makes many mistakes on both ends of the floor during his short time here. Nothing but experience and time under a better system with a better teaching coach (sorry about the minor bash here but it is a factor for Tyler especially).

    Hibbert is improving. He still is in need of a big man coach who can teach him to take up more space in the lane and the footwork required for being more powerful around the rim on both ends of the court. He does shoot the hook well despite not being very square when he does so, and shoots FT's well despite having limited opportunities to do so, once again due to the system.

    Rush is maturing. He makes better overall decisions than most on the team on both ends of the floor. He still doesn't have the confidence to go outside of the offense to take higher quality shots than he is presented with in this system for fear of getting reprimanded. Thankfully for him he really has little competition for minutes at his spot on the defensive end of the court that even our system reveals that he plays well. He is also shooting very well from the arc at this point overall which obviously has helped him keeping his minutes for some time now. He needs to play in a system that opens up driving lanes as a result of ball and player movement rather than just "stretching the floor" before any judgement can be passed on his ability to finish at the rim or his timid play on offense that is more likely recognition of the poor quality of opportunities for driving that present themselves to him during the normal course of games.

    Danny really is a young player at star level. He has been forced by injury to play differently than he ever has this season, and hopefully the summer will allow him to heal more completely, and whatever his personal issues are will resolve themselves and allow him to come back stronger physically and mentally next year. He can still end up being a beast, he just isn't at this point in time for reasons out of his control from health and personal to, once again, the system that encourages him to lead the league in attempts from the arc.

    I know, I didn't really make it through any part of this post without referring to our coaching or system in some fashion, but the young guys are probably the players most severely impacted by what has gone on here this season, and what we see from them has been highly impacted by our coach and his system. For me, they are nearly inextricably intertwined.

    Sorry about the fail.

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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    About Rush, there is a switch that goes off in his head that makes him play better February through April. I think that has a lot to do with college. At least that is when I noticed Brandon picking it up for Kansas while he was there.

    I don't have any other idea why he is so poor during the first half of the season, but the mentality needs to be that he plays this way all season. I would place a small bit of blame on the woes early on this season on his poor shooting.

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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    Brad - I agree that Josh definitely gets stuck trying to make choices on defense and can be lured into the wrong place. Also he's got room to develop his post defense.

    I think time can fix some of his defensive issues though. I think I'd rather see him work on a couple of offensive plays so he can threaten teams enough to force them to account for him on that end. He's kinda working the jumper and he's hit the 3 enough to show the range is there.

    Right now the only move for sure I've seen is the highpost backdoor that the team runs in general. He looks for screens and picks well, so I can see him finding a go-to play out of that.



    Rush - I don't think he was PLAYING bad early on. He was only shooting below par. I didn't see anything else wrong with his game. And I do think one impact on his shooting is the system and the types of shots he's expected to take and make.

    I don't think he struggles through screens or anything like that. To me if you watch Ford or Watson, or even Danny, you see guys far more willing to go under screens or let their man have space.

    Rush is an incredible shot blocker for an SG, and does a lot of it in traffic which makes it more impressive.


    By the way, over the last week or so I've mulled over the Rush for Henderson thing, and while I really like Henderson's potential I'm not certain that I am willing to part with Rush after all.

    My favorite Pacers right now are:
    Roy
    Rush
    Price
    Josh
    Danny

    Danny is down there because of his shooting and lax play on both ends. For example, he's been remarkably sloppy with the basketball, much like Dunleavy.

    I do think Danny looks more focused overall lately. Not sure if any of that is related to his family issues, or in spite of them. I realize health is probably a factor, but his mental game looks improved too.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 03-08-2010 at 01:27 AM.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    PHILLY GAME - again, not the place to complain about playing time or JOB

    Price - DNP

    McRoberts - minimal PT, not really a chance to note anything one way or the other

    DJones - I've noticed that he seems to be working up his shot fake and step in jumper. Plus as was noted in the telecast he put in a ton of extra 3Pt shooting practice and it appeared to pay off when he nailed one.

    I don't think he's really kept up the defensive intensity like I'd hoped, but he does seem to finely be tweeking his offensive game. He's aggressive, so this is a good thing.

    Roy - he continues to kinda rush plays at the rim. He makes lots of good moves but then hurts himself when he rushes the finish or 2nd shot. I do notice that he runs the court and follows up plays pretty well for his size/speed, the missed shot, he runs in and rebounds for the putback type of play.

    He did add in a very rare shot fake where he was able to step in closer for a nice make (and foul IIRC). TV guys noted it too. I like seeing Roy add in some of those post tricks.


    His passing game is really nice in the sense that he's got good vision and is aggressive. The problem is he forces some and doesn't always choose the best delivery method. Last night QB noted once where he should have bounced one instead of throwing it directly there, which got it tipped. Still the more he tries the better I think he'll get at this.

    I do like his over-the-top passes into the lane from the high post or farther out. He's got pretty good touch for it and his size allows him to pull the pass off quite a bit.

    I stand by the impression that Roy's best skill is his passing instinct.



    And then there was Rush, who had one of his best off-the-dribble games yet. His drive to the lane from the high wing, going to the FT line and then down the lane, is really getting dialed in. Last night he made this move from either side with pretty good confidence. This was a move he used at Kansas too.

    He puts a hesitation in there as well which draws guys in and allows him to blow by. Typically he draws double teams at the FT line which is where he leaps and two hand pass kicks out, a move some think is "passive" but I like. He's creating defensive motion and holes to attack when he does this.

    But I also noticed him moving with the ball confidently in other ways, such as a spin away when a guy tried to close out on him as he caught the pass. It was a quick move, and then I noticed him use it again later.

    Plus he had those 2 incredible moves right to the rim where he missed what would have been brilliant layups. Yes he must finish those, but the key at this point is that he was able to make the moves to get there off the dribble.

    To me this looked like one of those light bulb games all young players go through where they do something and it works well and they notice it. They have that "wait a second, I'm on to something here, they can't stop me when I do that" moment.

    My theory for some time has been that all players need to have those moments. Now the games right after that don't instantly get better because they might force that move or still be figuring out exactly how and when to use it, but the main thing is that sense of belonging and control of the situation. That's how you stop being a rookie or prospect and start being an NBA regular.

    I think Roy is getting that too, like his Howard game, but he's not as far along as Rush IMO. He's going to have a game where he slows down his 2nd or 3rd move into a nice, smooth shot and he's going to know "they can't stop me when I do this". After that I think he becomes that 18 ppg center we think he might.



    When I see Rush and Roy on nights like this it does frustrate me that Price and Josh aren't getting the same chances to find their games, their moves. Oh well, on hold for now.

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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    Bonus post - Jrue Holiday was always going to be a project this year. I loved him as a prospect but I thought he and Teague 100% should have stayed for another year of college.

    But boy, Jrue is already having those moments. He was the main alternate choice at the Pacers draft slot and it comes as no surprise to anyone that it ticks me off that they passed. He's raw now, but already he's finding his game on both ends (he's a sharp defensive prospect).



    OTOH Speights was a guy a lot of us thought was a better choice than Roy and he's really starting to fade. This seems to happen to lots of guys, they splash early on then fall back into the player they'll really be. Just look at Charlie V vs Granger for example.

    Maybe Speights isn't going to be the guy we thought, which would make Bird's draft look even more impressive 2 years ago.

  18. #14

    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    interesting tidbit about Price
    http://www.nba.com/2010/news/feature...beaubois.mavs/

    "The wide-eyed, baby-faced Beaubois continues to work hard in practice, and has begun to make his mark in a crowded and deep rookie class. He is one of five first-year pros, according to Elias, to score at least 18 points in a quarter this season, joining Tyreke Evans, Brandon Jennings, A.J. Price and Marcus Thornton."

    pretty good company.

    And Brandon Rush..I really hope we don't get stupid and trade him. Get him in a structured system, with a leader pushing him to play better (something I think Price and Hibbert would do in a few years) and he'll be a fantastic player for us.
    Last edited by Sookie; 03-10-2010 at 02:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    When I watch the game I pay the most attention to Roy, Brandon, and Josh. Roy and Brandon because I'm just about in love with their game and Josh because of his above the rim ability.

    Roy:

    I believe that offensively he needs to become more aware of his surroundings. When you get an offensive rebound there are really three things you can do with it. 1) Pass Out 2) Go up hard 3) Fake or a delay. He uses number 3 more than either of the other two. He needs to go up with the object of breaking the rim. You get in the habit of that and fakes become more effective at proper times. Passing out, honestly, shouldn't be done often but if he is not in a comfortable position, he should do that instantly.

    Defensively Roy needs to be careful to not let any post get too "in". When someone drop steps he fouls trying to go for the block that is often out of reach. Also, I think he has to be less concerned about people trying to go through him than around him. Wider, lower base stance.

    Rush:

    I think when Rush is an active part of the offense early in the possession it leads to more success. When the clock is winding down and he hasn't touched the ball he tends to stop moving. I would like the team to utilize some screens for him to see what he could do with that. Also, he needs to finish more consistently.

    Defensively he is a great man on defender. He is a solid off the ball defender but he can lose his man a little more often than you want to see.

    McRoberts:

    This is less of an offense/defense analyses but is what I see McRoberts. I think he is the "stretch-stopper". His game is taylor-made to control players like Troy Murphy who would prefer to get into a jump shot contest with you. He has very solid perimeter defense. Offensively he has solid handles and of course is an explosive athlete. It would be nice if he showed a more consistent jumper as the type of player I feel he should be matched up against will probably sag against him.

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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Bonus post - Jrue Holiday was always going to be a project this year. I loved him as a prospect but I thought he and Teague 100% should have stayed for another year of college.

    But boy, Jrue is already having those moments. He was the main alternate choice at the Pacers draft slot and it comes as no surprise to anyone that it ticks me off that they passed. He's raw now, but already he's finding his game on both ends (he's a sharp defensive prospect).



    OTOH Speights was a guy a lot of us thought was a better choice than Roy and he's really starting to fade. This seems to happen to lots of guys, they splash early on then fall back into the player they'll really be. Just look at Charlie V vs Granger for example.

    Maybe Speights isn't going to be the guy we thought, which would make Bird's draft look even more impressive 2 years ago.
    I guess that it is a good thing that Jrue ended up going to a developing and rebuilding team where he could get playing time and learn the NBA game. Good for him.

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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    I don't get to watch the games so I don't really have anything to say about this, but I'm going to bump it so maybe someone else will comment. Reading about the kids is my favorite thing about the team anymore.

    I will say that I am very optimistic for Brandon's future given how his 3 point shot has developed this year. You can make a long, effective career for yourself by playing lockdown defense and hitting the 3 ball. Hopefully he can work on his handles for next year -- his efficient shooting should open up some nice driving lanes for him.

    hard to believe Brandon and Roy are only 2nd year players. They could be very good players by the time they hit their peaks.

  23. #18

    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    Three games after the Cav game, and I don't believe Price, Hibbert and Rush have all shared the court together. Unfreakingbelievable.

    Price..yea, he hasn't played that wonderfully lately, although this was a pretty good game. And I also think it's hard for anyone to play 4 well in the four minutes of competitive playing time they get, plus the the garbage time in the fourth quarter. (note to Jimmy, I can guarantee you that Earl does not want to play 40 minutes a night.) There's a paranoid part of me that thinks JOB is restricting Price's playing time, so he can point to his less than stellar statistics to explain why Ford will get Price's time. I know that's paranoid, and maybe..that isn't JOB's plan, but I can almost guarantee that's what he's going to do. Forget pointing out that I'm sure AJ could come up with more than 7 points and 1 assist in 30+ minutes...digressing again.

    Anyway, I've noticed that AJ seems to be..a lot less aggressive when the Pacer's have the lead. And honestly, I should have guessed that's what would happen, because he was that way at Uconn. He's much more content with running the offense, and passing, then being as take charge as he is when the Pacers are down. I think he definitely needs to work on that. He plays better, and I think the team plays better, when he's more aggressive..and he has his good combo of looking for his own shot and creating shots.

    Hibbert..I think he's clearly made progress throughout the year. He got called for some..bull..foul calls this game. But he seems to even have gotten better with that. His post moves are better, his free throw percentage is improved. He's just all around improved. What I like most about him though, is that he plays well against the best competition. That's a really good sign of potential.

    I think his defense and foul trouble (still) are where he needs to work. I'd like to see him be stronger with going to the basket, but I get the feeling he's more like Pau Gasol than Dwight Howard, and Roy is just, always going to be soft around the basket. It's too bad we couldn't make him a little more athletic though.

    Rush, has been awesome lately. I hope he can continue this into next season. Although, apparently he did this last season as well. I really think Rush has a lot of talent, perhaps more so than Danny even. He may never be "the guy" but what he brings to a team and the potential he has is incredible. Defensive stopper, really good shooter, good passer, team player..the list can go on.

    His problem, I think is obvious. He needs to learn how to finish at the rim better. I'd also like him to add more of a midrange game. I have seen him drive in and take a midrange jumper like Price and Ford do, I think that would expand his game a lot, and probably make him more of a scorer, and probably make it easier to finish because the defense would have to really think about what he is going to do.

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    yay, I was just thinking about this thread. I was on vacation last week and it got neglected a bit, but I remembered it tonight and was going to dig it up.


    Rush - I'm so sick of the "sure he brings it in March" or "I wish he'd play like this in December". Um, he did. Enough already, learn the game. The dude shot the 3 poorly in November. End of story. (not directed at you Sookie, this is from hearing local sports talk the last few days)

    Since when did 40% from deep stop being enough for people? I think people fail to realize how rare it was for Reggie to go on 40+% tears from 3 for months at a time.

    Rush had a bad defensive play where he didn't switch to Prince on a PnR that got Dun picked off, but when Dun scored on the next trip no one helped out on Prince on transition (ahem, Danny sleeping on D again) and Rush made up for his prior play by picking him up from across the court (on his own man) and chasing down Prince for the block without a foul. Amazing. Not good, but amazing. Awareness and closing speed, he passed two other Pacers closer to Prince that were doing nothing about it.


    Roy - I'm wondering if he's a bit self-conscious of his own quickness because I think his main offensive issue is rushing shots/plays. When he settles a bit and smooths out the play he has a lot more success, both in scoring and drawing fouls.

    Roy has hit a little plateau to me. I know he's had good production lately, but I don't think he's really any better than he was vs the Magic months ago. he needs an "aha" moment where he adds some aspect or adjusts his approach.


    Price - he's settling so often for his own shot and not really showing any playmaking, which we know he can do. I just don't know what to think about it, except maybe the system and the lack of consistent playing time (same guys, situation, expected role).

    On defense he has one really bad habit which is to always bite the crossover, and bite it hard. He gives guys 2-3 feet of lateral space pretty consistently. That's unacceptable for a PG defender.


    Solo - He's surprising me with a bit of development that I wouldn't expect with his low playing time. He's really showing an elbow game, both the jumper and moving the ball off the elbow when they run at his jumper. I think he's improved his offensive awareness quite a bit.



    Back to Rush and finishing at the rim. I agree. I also think he does too which is why he avoids it (thus the "passive"). He has hops but he's no Gerald Henderson when it comes to finishing in traffic.

    People think I overhype things like Robinson's dunking at UConn, but the fact is that the game above the rim in traffic is a key weapon in the NBA. You might only get that dunk 2-3 times a game, but the threat of it adds another 3-4 scores off the attack and draws fouls.

    What keeps Rush from being a big time scorer is that he lacks this game. IMO he probably won't ever have it since he's never shown any sign of it prior to this point. That's just not who he is.

    The midrange jumper is something he can add and I think he will. I think he had it at Kansas and just hasn't quite found the finish to his dribble drive to midrange game (both passing options and scoring). I think this is what he'll dial in next and that will lift him up another level.

    I am sick of these 18-20ppg expectations from a standard #13 pick. A SG with good defense that scores 18-20 is borderline all-star, not good starter just barely above 6-7th man. Totally unrealistic expectations. I don't think people realize how rare 20 PPG is or how few teams have 3-4 guys like this.



    Luckily we didn't waste any game time working with McRoberts. Hate to waste that Troy development time on Josh.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 03-23-2010 at 11:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Price - he's settling so often for his own shot and not really showing any playmaking, which we know he can do. I just don't know what to think about it, except maybe the system and the lack of consistent playing time (same guys, situation, expected role).

    On defense he has one really bad habit which is to always bite the crossover, and bite it hard. He gives guys 2-3 feet of lateral space pretty consistently. That's unacceptable for a PG defender.

    It's even more suprising that he does that considering that's a move he does frequently. But it's one of those things that..if he got enough playing time, I'd bet he'd correct it. It's a classic "the game is too fast" rookie mistake.

    He also has a problem with screens, which is why Nash completely eats him up. I'm not sure if it's completely his fault ( if Roy/Troy are supposed to help him.) or if it's just him. But he's the one that consistently looks bad on them.

    I don't mind him backing off his guy to help in the middle. In fact, with Roy and Troy in there, I don't really blame him, particularly since he's not beat on that often. But I have a feeling as teams scout him and realize he does it, it'll probably be used against him.

    The scoring thing..I think there are a variety of reason. I think the primary one is...the less he scores, the less he plays. JOB wants his point guards to play like AI.

    But I also think it's a combination of who he's out there with as well as what he's being told to do. I think if you put him on the floor with Rush and Hibbert for a long period, you'd see him have a good combination of playmaking and scoring.

    And lastly, let's face it. He's a rookie, and scoring is easier than playmaking. Not to mention, about a third of his time this season has been spent as an SG.

    But overall I'm just frustrated, because yes..he hasn't been playing as well as he did earlier this season..but a huge reason for that is the playing time he's being given. It's borderline ridiculous. 4 minutes in the entire first half. No one could play well given that short amount of time. So of course he tries to get a few shots up to get into the game.

    I also think part of the "problem" is that he is creating more than he gets credit for. There have been a few times lately that I've noticed that he directs the traffic, makes the pass of the pass, and of course doesn't get the assist for it. Or he does pass, and the shot misses. Part of this is WHO he likes to pass it to. He sort of has comfort people at this point. Rush, Hibbert, and Dun. ...and He's on the court with Dun more than Rush and Hibbert..so when you try to set up Dun, you aren't going to come away with assists. He set up Dun (just Dun) 3 or 4 times tonight. All misses. Doesn't mean he's not creating, he is. Statistically, he'd just be better off creating for Danny. This is why though, it wasn't a shock he got six assists when he got to play with Rush and Roy. (LET THEM PLAY TOGETHER AGAIN JOB...THREE FREAKING GAMES LATER..STILL NO TIME TOGETHER.)
    Last edited by Sookie; 03-24-2010 at 12:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    Troy Murphy is being promoted for Most Improved Player, isn't he? That MUST be what we are up to. Otherwise, none of it makes any sense...

    Actually, probably not. A lot of his good play throughout this year has been irrelevant due to not coming in a winning effort. It would be hypocritical for O'B to reward him this way. He must just be AWESOME in practice as he apparently always has been. Otherwise, he would not have earned his playing time, which obviously comes as a result of the defensive effort he brings to the floor in practices...

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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Roy - I'm wondering if he's a bit self-conscious of his own quickness because I think his main offensive issue is rushing shots/plays. When he settles a bit and smooths out the play he has a lot more success, both in scoring and drawing fouls.

    Roy has hit a little plateau to me. I know he's had good production lately, but I don't think he's really any better than he was vs the Magic months ago. he needs an "aha" moment where he adds some aspect or adjusts his approach.
    I think much of Roy's improvement has been due to not taking a long time to figure out what to do. Much of the frustration I had with him earlier in the season was from getting the ball and holding it long enough for the defense to adjust. The downside of that is that he is rushing sometimes, but I think it is a little easier to slow down than speed up.
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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    When you are a low post big you don't need to be in too much hurry as you are supposed to be able to get your shot anyway due to size. Jabbar didn't have to go screaming into a toss up as soon as he touched the ball.

    For example last night we saw Roy throw one horrible shot up under the rim, where if he just waited and settled he could have gone into a solid, smooth scoring move OVER his defender.

    Roy is throwing up a lot of shots like he's 6 foot tall in there, not over 7 feet. It's like a panicked, rushed shot.

    Plus the patience of waiting is that you are letting defenses show you that double which is exactly what you want a low post threat to see. Then you cut off that and make them pay. Doesn't even have to be the direct shot. We saw last night a kick out from the double and then a hard ball reversal of 2 more passes to a wide open corner 3 from the other side, all because Roy waited for them to show their double.


    Yes, if he waits THROUGH cuts, through motion, well past the double showing, then he needs to pick it up. But this is not what he's avoiding. He's catching a pass and quickly trying to get a shot up on the glass as though he fully expects to have his shot stuffed or something. It's not a smooth shot.

    So I disagree that a low post big should go super fast and then dial it back. I think the post big should work on deliberate moves and footwork, at least if you are tall enough to have a true back to the rim game.

    This isn't the same as a 6'6" wing that catches a rotation PG post up chance and wants to get his shot going before the defense recovers. Or a guy like Amare (or Kemp) who's scoring moves are the quick, explosive type rather than traditional slow moves.

    Dale and Rik both had rather slow developing moves that were simply reliable.

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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    When you are a low post big you don't need to be in too much hurry as you are supposed to be able to get your shot anyway due to size. Jabbar didn't have to go screaming into a toss up as soon as he touched the ball.

    For example last night we saw Roy throw one horrible shot up under the rim, where if he just waited and settled he could have gone into a solid, smooth scoring move OVER his defender.

    Roy is throwing up a lot of shots like he's 6 foot tall in there, not over 7 feet. It's like a panicked, rushed shot.

    Plus the patience of waiting is that you are letting defenses show you that double which is exactly what you want a low post threat to see. Then you cut off that and make them pay. Doesn't even have to be the direct shot. We saw last night a kick out from the double and then a hard ball reversal of 2 more passes to a wide open corner 3 from the other side, all because Roy waited for them to show their double.


    Yes, if he waits THROUGH cuts, through motion, well past the double showing, then he needs to pick it up. But this is not what he's avoiding. He's catching a pass and quickly trying to get a shot up on the glass as though he fully expects to have his shot stuffed or something. It's not a smooth shot.

    So I disagree that a low post big should go super fast and then dial it back. I think the post big should work on deliberate moves and footwork, at least if you are tall enough to have a true back to the rim game.



    Dale and Rik both had rather slow developing moves that were simply reliable.
    With this line of thinking wouldn't you think a Monroe/Hibbert post be pretty nasty.

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    Default Re: Youth development tracking and discussion

    McRoberts looking quite irrelevant tonight!

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