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Thread: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    So far, the only thing that I have heard is that this is due to poor Help Defense due to the "Tortoise and Snail" frontcourt of Murphy and Hibbert.

    Is that one of the major reasons?

    Is it because they tend to play extensive minutes together or some combination of either of them playing on their own with Granger, Solo or ( to a much lesser extent ) McRoberts?
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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    KG is an extreme example. OK, how about Ben Wallace, Sheed, Jeff Foster - back in their day. No, Jeff was not as good as the other two, but Jeff is the type of defender I really like. (Hope Peck doesn't read this, I'm sure he won't)
    Ben Wallace is a DPOY guy and both him and Sheed were Allstars. Where do you propose we get one of these type of players?

    I don't necessarily agree that Jeff's defense was good enough to justify his anemic offense. Ben Wallace, yes. Jeff - no.

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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    do we really want to get onto that tangent. Yes Josh is the "type" of defender I would like and should like. But he looks lost defensively most of the time. Comparing him to Jeff Foster - Josh doesn't have good lateral quickness, doesn't have quick hands or feet. I don't see any instincts there to play defense well. He can jump though so he has that going for him - but other than good jumping ability I don't know what else he has.
    I think his lateral quickness is just fine...I have seen him on the wing defending 3's well at times this season when someone got caught on a switch.

    Also, I'm sure you'll disagree, but I think at 22 Josh has a better offensive game than Jeff in his prime.

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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    do we really want to get onto that tangent. Yes Josh is the "type" of defender I would like. But he looks lost defensively most of the time. Comparing him to Jeff Foster - Josh doesn't have good lateral quickness, doesn't have quick hands or feet. I don't see any instincts there to play defense well. He can jump though so he has that going for him
    Okay....I'll ask the obvious question now......who on the roster that can play is the **closest thing** that we have to that "type of defender?

    The correct answer "technically" is Foster.....but since he's not available to play NOW....is it Granger, Murphy, Solo, McRoberts, Dunleavy or ( even ) Inferno ( all of which have played some PF minutes this season )?

    The answer to me...is either Granger, Solo or McRoberts....as to who should be paired up with Hibbert or Murphy....IMHO...I'd go witih Granger ( based off of a situation basis against certain "more mobile" frontcourts ) and McRoberts ( only cuz he is more mobile, athletic and a better passer then Solo ). The reason that I ( and many posters here ) always brings up McRoberts is that he may not be anything more then a 4th/5th Big Man in a HEALTHY Frontcourt rotation....but he does a much better impression of Foster then Solo does and has shown ( in the very short periods of time that he is ALLOWED TO PLAY ) that he is a capable "stop-gap" solution in the PF/C rotation ( where "stop-gap" means that he is not the perfect nor permanent solution that should get 30 minutes a game to fix our non-existent Frontcourt rotation but one that can do a more then "adequate" job of filling in for the short term ).
    Last edited by CableKC; 03-04-2010 at 11:53 AM.
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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    do we really want to get onto that tangent. Yes Josh is the "type" of defender I would like. But he looks lost defensively most of the time. Comparing him to Jeff Foster - Josh doesn't have good lateral quickness, doesn't have quick hands or feet. I don't see any instincts there to play defense well. He can jump though so he has that going for him
    I was joking, sort of.....

    While I agree with you that his defense isn't anywhere near the level of this discussion, I will contend that given oppportunity to work on technique, he could be more than adequate to fill the role.

    Foster doesn't strike me as anything abnormal. He just doesn't possess talents that others don't, other than sheer desire. I see Jeff as exactly as what he is/was. He grew up playing guard, and then got a huge growth spurt. He has the basic fundamentals of how to move his feet playing defense through those years. Those are things that big men don't work on growing up. Most of the time, post players have always been post players. Post defense is different, obviously. Jeff has the advantage of being trained, and efficient at both.

    He's not some world beater of an athlete, he doesn't have hyper-quick feet for a big. He was just blessed to have height problems early in his career was was coached differently. (I think this has everything to do with his inability to finish inside BTW)

    To say Josh doesn't have the ability to learn those traits, is folly IMHO. Will he? Maybe not, but he does have the ability too.

    EDIT: I really should end with this. I don't expect anything out of Josh. If he happens to develop, and be a replacement for Jeff, then that's just gravy on top. If he remains a 10th to 12th man for the rest of his career, that's also fine. I don't expect him to grow, just saying he has the phsyical tools needed.

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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sobchak View Post
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    Ben Wallace is a DPOY guy and both him and Sheed were Allstars. Where do you propose we get one of these type of players?

    I don't necessarily agree that Jeff's defense was good enough to justify his anemic offense. Ben Wallace, yes. Jeff - no.
    The Pacers need a long, lean, athletic big guy - are there any in the draft. If they don't draft a point guard they are sure will be the starting point guard for the next 10 years then they better draft a long, lean athletic big guy

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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Favors fits that bill, but he's very raw. Don't let people fool you into thinking Cousins is an explosive athlete because he is far from it - he's more of a plodding bruiser type.

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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I was joking, sort of.....

    While I agree with you that his defense isn't anywhere near the level of this discussion, I will contend that given oppportunity to work on technique, he could be more than adequate to fill the role.

    Foster doesn't strike me as anything abnormal. He just doesn't possess talents that others don't, other than sheer desire. I see Jeff as exactly as what he is/was. He grew up playing guard, and then got a huge growth spurt. He has the basic fundamentals of how to move his feet playing defense through those years. Those are things that big men don't work on growing up. Most of the time, post players have always been post players. Post defense is different, obviously. Jeff has the advantage of being trained, and efficient at both.

    He's not some world beater of an athlete, he doesn't have hyper-quick feet for a big. He was just blessed to have height problems early in his career was was coached differently. (I think this has everything to do with his inability to finish inside BTW)

    To say Josh doesn't have the ability to learn those traits, is folly IMHO. Will he? Maybe not, but he does have the ability too.
    Jeff has unusually quick hands and quick feet for a guy 6'11". Not to suggest other players didn't have it, and no Jeff was never a top defender like the others I have mentioned, mainly because jeff was never a shot blocker.

    I don't think Josh will ever have some of the attirubutes that Jeff was blessed with like nose for the ball, quick hands quick feet. Josh or anyone can learn to play team defense, be in the right spots, but I don't think he'll ever be an instinctive defender - JMO

    Good thread so far.

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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I am not one who believes in having a big guy to anchor the defense - at least not a big slow guy in the middle. I like big defenders who are really quick, mobile, athletic, can help recover that sort of thing.
    Dwight Howard and SVG would disagree with you, especially on this point. So would Rick Carlisle and Pat Riley (and by default Spoelstra).

    Also, we have done surprisingly well against Howard, getting him into foul trouble defensively and blocking his shots fairly frequently due to the very fact that he is slow, as you mention, due to the fact that Roy does play defense, but is mostly too slow to rotate effectively in our quicker paced game, even on defense, likely due in part to some fatigue due to having less game time conditioning during his rookie season and earlier this season as well.

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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    OK. I really like that this thread has focused on perimeter defense. But honestly, when you go to a "small ball" lineup, you become completely undersized and teams will notice and take advantage of it. When you have DJones playing PF, they will post him up and his only way to prevent a basket is to foul. I have seen this quite a bit. Our second PG playing SG gets posted up by SGs with more size. Murphy is terrible in fronting a man in post defense whether matched up with a PF or C. He is either going to foul or give up an easy bucket, but then again so is everybody who tries to play against a bigger player, especially closer to the basket.

    Hibbert is still prone to fouling in general, especially on a quick move in the post. He does block a TON of shots this way though. Hibbert is not such a liability on defense because he plays the low block and also gets a lot of blocked shots. It isn't about speed with him, but moreso quickness to recover against a quick move. He does well against power moves in the post because he is so long/tall. But even then, he does get pushed around by bigger bodied centers like Bogut, Shaq, and Dwight, which causes him to foul.

    Our undersized lineup is where IMO a lot of the discrepancy in fouls commited occurs. I want to throw up when I see a box score and realize that our starting lineup was literally 4-5 from the FT line for a game. Then TJ is 8-10 from the line by himself. This shows a lack of aggressiveness and efficient ball movement. We settle for a three after two or three passes instead of making four or five passes and having the defense out of position enough to allow a more open drive to the basket. We need to force the defense to act, as opposed to taking a quick shot and not making them work defensively. I am not complaining about quick shots, but I think the FT discrepancy is a by-product of taking the three early and not forcing their defense to work/react.

    I want a PF that can play next to Hibbert. I want a defensive minded PF who blocks shots and has some size/strength. I love Hans as a backup rotational big man. This is our greatest need IMO. I prioritize defense as a coaching philosophy and this would alleviate the defensive pressure on our wings. I think our wings are very good defenders, but they are not in a position to succeed defensively. Why does Rondo look brilliant for taking so many chances defensively? He has a front court with size and the ability to block shots. The wings are good defensively, but team defense starts up front.

    I agree with UB that Jeff Foster would make a huge difference for this team. But where we might not agree is that I would have him playing next to Hibbert and have Murphy come off the bench. Murphy's offensive ability on the second team would be a bigger advantage and the backup bigs for other teams would not be able to take advantage of him as much on the defensive end. I love Murphy. I do. He just should not be a starting PF. Just like Ford is a perfect backup PG because of his fit, so is Murphy a perfect backup big man. They just get paid like starters and is their biggest downfall.

    Sorry so long.

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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    Dwight Howard and SVG would disagree with you, especially on this point. So would Rick Carlisle and Pat Riley (and by default Spoelstra).

    Also, we have done surprisingly well against Howard, getting him into foul trouble defensively and blocking his shots fairly frequently due to the very fact that he is slow, as you mention, due to the fact that Roy does play defense, but is mostly too slow to rotate effectively in our quicker paced game, even on defense, likely due in part to some fatigue due to having less game time conditioning during his rookie season and earlier this season as well.
    I might not be sure exactly what you are saying here. My fault.

    But see Dwight Howard is that rare athlete that comes along about every 10 years. he is quick, athletic, big, strong - he has it all defensively. That is very rare. I love his defense.

    What I don't like is a big, strong unathletic guy who just patrols the paint. best example of that right now is Yao - I think he's liability defensively. Although he is tall, big and strong - not that he's a copmplete liability, but he can't do a lot of things I think big guys should be able to do.

    A healthy Tyson Chandler is also a huge difference maker defensively
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 03-04-2010 at 12:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I'm sure you disagree about Roy. He's gotten better this season and I expect him to continue to improve. Now he's a good shotblocker but IMO that isn't necessarily an indication that he's a good defender. He'll always be a liability in the pick and roll coverage and other type of situations when some quickness is needed.

    I am not one who believes in having a big guy to anchor the defense - at least not a big slow guy in the middle. I like big defenders who are really quick, mobile, athletic, can help recover that sort of thing. Give me KG over a healthy Yao any day. Long, lean, quick athletic defenders is what I like. That is what made Sheed and Ben so good and to a lesser extent IMO that was what made Jeff and JO as a defensive combo very good.

    Kendrick Perkins is an interesting case. No one guards Dwight Howard any better (and that alone gives the Celtics a decent chance of beating the Magic). Perk is physical a bit of a bruiser, and not the most athletic guy, but he doesn't seem slow in his lateral quickness - so he is an excellent defender.
    Let's test this theory a little here by comparing two players who played at the same time, who played the same position, who both were good defenders (IMO anyway) but were totally differant.

    Dale Davis vs. Charles Oakley.

    Dale would be your fast, lean, long athletic player.

    Charles would be your slower, bulkier and craftier player.

    Uncle Buck break down both of these types of players for me and tell me which you would prefer given our current team.

    BTW, to your suprise I don't disagree with you about Roy on defense. I think Foster would have been perfect with him.

    That is why I really hope that Tyler can come around next year. I also like Josh next to him.


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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    Dwight Howard and SVG would disagree with you, especially on this point. So would Rick Carlisle and Pat Riley (and by default Spoelstra).
    In case you haven't seen it from our previous debates, UncleBuck likes giving up layups that occur on the next pass after the pick-and-roll because his post presence is out of position, and he prefers to cover the interior with zone and double-teams instead of man-to-man defense.

    Clearly (IMO, of course) the best choice is always to have an interior post defender that eats up all the space and makes it impossible for the ball to penetrate into the paint, period.

    You don't take a great post presence and have them switch on the pick-and-roll. Only Jim O'Brien would do that.

    UncleBuck doesn't consider Shaq the greatest defensive Presence of the past twenty years (we've had that debate). If we each had the #1 pick in the hypothetical draft from the cumulative all-time roster for a defensive team, I'd take either Shaq, Wilt or Russell to own the paint and he'd take someone like Jeff Foster to front the post or Kevin Garnett to switch on the pick-and-roll.

    As silly as I think it is (and most successful NBA coaches seem to agree), UncleBuck does not value post defense.

    But he has a point - the number of outstanding post defenders has been on the decline for a long time now (and was already on the decline during the 1990s even when Shaq, Patrick, Dale Davis, Hakeem, Alonzo and a few other players still ruled the paint.) So its harder and harder to find a good post presence and coaches, by necessity, have found ways ("Gimmicks") to overcome this void -- with varying levels of success.

    However, that is a void that every team should be trying to fill instead of Gimmick their way around. Perhaps Roy can continue to grow into that type of post defender.

    That would be much better for the Pacers' long-term fortunes than to give up on him because he doesn't have the lateral quickness to switch on the pick-and-roll.
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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I might not be sure exactly what you are saying here. My fault.

    But see Dwight Howard is that rare athlete that comes along about every 10 years. he is quick, athletic, big, strong - he has it all defensively. That is very rare. I love his defense.

    What I don't like is a big, strong unathletic guy who just patrols the paint. best example of that right now is Yao - I think he's liability defensively. Although he is tall, big and strong - not that he's a copmplete liability, but he can't do a lot of things I think big guys should be able to do.

    A healthy Tyson Chandler is also a huge difference maker defensively
    Howard is big, athletic, and very very VERY strong and is a shot blocker.

    What he is not, IMO, is quick, which is why Roy has had at least a measure of success against him on both ends of the floor, and is also why O'B gave Roy minutes against him. He considered Roy to be a better matchup against Howard due to quickness, and that matchup was also a factor in our totally surprising victory against them on January 5, and had us neck and neck with them during games last year when we had little right to expect it whether it was a much quicker Foster or Roy playing against him.

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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Let's test this theory a little here by comparing two players who played at the same time, who played the same position, who both were good defenders (IMO anyway) but were totally differant.

    Dale Davis vs. Charles Oakley.

    Dale would be your fast, lean, long athletic player.

    Charles would be your slower, bulkier and craftier player.
    Wow. I don't agree with that assesment of Dale at all. You've just compared Foster with either Oak or Dale. Not Oak vs. Dale.
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  19. #41
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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    It's simple. The defense is bad and out of place. Most of the Pacers foul attempts take place during drives to the basket or inside, b/c we're normally out matched... which leads to FTAs.

    Our PGs usually can't keep there man in front of them which leads to them committing a foul out of position, or a drive that cause a big or the help defender to foul the PG or the player the assist goes to.

    The Pacers commit dumb reach in fouls or "hacking" type of fouls because they're outmatched, we causes a team to get into the penalty early, which leads to even more FTAs since the Pacers foul a lot anyways.

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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    In case you haven't seen it from our previous debates, UncleBuck likes giving up layups that occur on the next pass after the pick-and-roll because his post presence is out of position, and he prefers to cover the interior with zone and double-teams instead of man-to-man defense.

    Clearly (IMO, of course) the best choice is always to have an interior post defender that eats up all the space and makes it impossible for the ball to penetrate into the paint, period.

    You don't take a great post presence and have them switch on the pick-and-roll. Only Jim O'Brien would do that.

    UncleBuck doesn't consider Shaq the greatest defensive Presence of the past twenty years (we've had that debate). If we each had the #1 pick in the hypothetical draft from the cumulative all-time roster for a defensive team, I'd take either Shaq, Wilt or Russell to own the paint and he'd take someone like Jeff Foster to front the post or Kevin Garnett to switch on the pick-and-roll.

    As silly as I think it is (and most successful NBA coaches seem to agree), UncleBuck does not value post defense.

    But he has a point - the number of outstanding post defenders has been on the decline for a long time now (and was already on the decline during the 1990s even when Shaq, Patrick, Dale Davis, Hakeem, Alonzo and a few other players still ruled the paint.) So its harder and harder to find a good post presence and coaches, by necessity, have found ways ("Gimmicks") to overcome this void -- with varying levels of success.

    However, that is a void that every team should be trying to fill instead of Gimmick their way around. Perhaps Roy can continue to grow into that type of post defender.

    That would be much better for the Pacers' long-term fortunes than to give up on him because he doesn't have the lateral quickness to switch on the pick-and-roll.
    Ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Gotcha!!!!!!!

    You just put Dale in Shaq's, Hakeem & Zo's teritory. So therefor by stating this you are now admitting that Dale was an elite post defender thus making your Tony is as good as Dale remarks null and void.


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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Wow. I don't agree with that assesment of Dale at all. You've just compared Foster with either Oak or Dale. Not Oak vs. Dale.
    Really???

    In what way? This has me perplexed.


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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    do we really want to get onto that tangent. Yes Josh is the "type" of defender I would like and should like. But he looks lost defensively most of the time. Comparing him to Jeff Foster - Josh doesn't have good lateral quickness, doesn't have quick hands or feet. I don't see any instincts there to play defense well. He can jump though so he has that going for him - but other than good jumping ability I don't know what else he has.
    Josh has excellent lateral quickness are you even watching the same player? I have seen him switch on to small forwards numerous times and hold his own. The game where he switched onto corey maggete and blocked his shot on back to back possesesions comes to mind. Not coming from the weakside mind you, blocked it right in his face after stopping the drive.

    Josh struggles in the low post at times, but he can stay in front of almost anyone.
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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Let's test this theory a little here by comparing two players who played at the same time, who played the same position, who both were good defenders (IMO anyway) but were totally differant.

    Dale Davis vs. Charles Oakley.

    Dale would be your fast, lean, long athletic player.

    Charles would be your slower, bulkier and craftier player.

    Uncle Buck break down both of these types of players for me and tell me which you would prefer given our current team.

    BTW, to your suprise I don't disagree with you about Roy on defense. I think Foster would have been perfect with him.

    That is why I really hope that Tyler can come around next year. I also like Josh next to him.
    First, as you know the NBA was entirely different back in the 90's than it is today. Oakley could not do 90% of the thing he tried back in the day. He would be much less effective defensively today. I think Dale was always a better defender - but if both were to play now Dale would even be that much better than Oak. Oak wasn't as slow as it appeared at times though.

    an aside, I admired the way oakley played efense though. I'll never forget him hipchecking Reggie out of bounds or taking an extremely hard foul after the whistle would blow.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 03-04-2010 at 01:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Yesh ChicagoJ we have discussed Shaq's defense. First with him you have to decided if you are going to judge him based upon the way he typically played defense - at about 60% or if you are going to judge him by the way he only on rare occasions played defense when he went at 80-85%. Me, I think Hakeem, Zo, KG are the best interior defenders I have ever seen. Shaq wouldn't be anywhere on my list. Ask his former coaches if they would get frustrated at the way Shaq typically played defense - lackluster

    Isn't the first prerequisite of being a dominant defender - hard play at all times. Shaq never approached doing that

  25. #47
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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    My butt. The man worked his tail off to establish inside position. You're equating "playing hard" with motion. It was his stability that made him great.

    You "stand still" and keep a player both strong and quick like Patrick or Hakeem from getting deeper position. Matter of fact, you don't have to stand still. You can do everything you want to keep them out of the paint. Shaq didn't just keep them out of the paint, he kept them so far out they would lose usefulness.

    When Rik bulked up, he was even pretty good at post defense. But he had knee and foot problems so he slimmed back down. I wish I had video of game I drove down from Taylor to watch in about 1990 when Patrick could not get good position on a young Smits but scored at will against Dreiling.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  26. #48
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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Gotcha!!!!!!!

    You just put Dale in Shaq's, Hakeem & Zo's teritory. So therefor by stating this you are now admitting that Dale was an elite post defender thus making your Tony is as good as Dale remarks null and void.
    I don't think I said Tony was as good as Dale.

    Dale's "strengths" were not the issue. Dale's weaknesses were. I appreciate Dale's defense and acknowledge that he was the team's post presence, defensively.

    Tony was a better rounded player but did not excel at any one part of the game. Dale's defense was excellent. I've never disputed that. I was just terrified when he would get a rebound because he'd probably get fouled before he could pass the ball away.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  27. #49
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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I'll never forget him hipchecking Reggie out of bounds or taking an extremely hard foul after the whistle would blow.
    (a) February of 1993. When the rivalry actually began. Oak was not even called for a foul on the play but was fined $10k (the largest fine at that time) and may have even been suspended a game.

    (b) THAT's the difference between Oak and Dale. Oak was dirty after the play was over. Both were excellent warriors between the whistles, especially on the defensive side of the ball. Oak also had a better midrange jumper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Really???

    In what way? This has me perplexed.
    I think they're both (Dale and Oak) physical.

    When I think of fast, lean, athletic, I don't think of either of them. That's Garnett, and what JO probably should have remained in retrospect. Oak and Dale used physical strength - an important form of athleticism - to be sturdy and stable, not jump like grasshoppers and run like jackrabbits.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  28. #50
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    Default Re: Why do the Pacers give up so many FTAs?

    Don't forget that Oak was several years older than Dale, so the head-to-head matchups in the mid-90s were not when Oak was at his prime. He was starting to show his age but I don't think that Dale at his prime was significantly more agile than Oak at his prime.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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