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Thread: Why make this statement???

  1. #301
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    WHY they got the minutes doesn't change the fact that they got them. It isn't something to be used in defense of JOB's rotational preferences, maybe, but it doesn't invalidate the minutes.

    Or are you saying that Roy's and Rush's minutes are IRRELEVANT in a season where Jeff and Dun have not been available as expected?
    True, but I just didn't want it to be assumed that JOB really was a good coach at developing young talent.

    However to be fair I don't think he would be a bad coach at developing young talent if that young talent played his style of ball.

    That is why you really have to scratch your head at what Bird has done with getting the players he has and keeping the coach he has.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  2. #302

    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Roy and Rush? I say no. They are right where they should be - I see no delay with either.

    Price? he is a rookie would he be further along had he played 40 minutes every game? sure, but I have also seen cases where too much playing time too early can delay a players development - bad habbits, confidence being hurt. I'll give you Price a little bit delayed at the margins - nothing that is going to change anything. I figure unless you are a great player a lot of rookie season is just learning the NBA lifestyle. I think by January next season Price is going to be what Price is regardless of the amount of minutes he played this season

    Look at Granger does anyone suggest he would be any better now if he would have played more minutes his rookie season?

    Playing too much too soon can be a bad thing. I think it will all even out and a player is going to be what a player is.
    I am not a coach or a guy who can tell you what it takes to develop NBA talent but I do know if you don't work you don't improve. Rookie or not if you don't play then you don't know what your up against. What types of defenses you'll see what type of players you will face.

    In addition to this if you have ever worked on a team it helps to know each part and how each part can help out the other. Right now JOB has taken parts not in future and has given them priority over those parts that "will" be in the future. The Pacers will be playing at a disadvantage because of this and instead of a future well oiled machine we will have a hodgepodge team who will still have to learn to work together.

    The developement argument that you are making is really sketchy. What former players were hindered as a result of too many minutes and how do you know that? Each player is different and who knows if its a bad thing for Price, McBOB, Hibbert or even S. Jones.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 03-05-2010 at 01:18 PM.

  3. #303
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Roy has only played the min. he has this season because Jeff Foster went down with a season ending injury early on. That is not my theory btw, re-read JOB talking about why Dunleavy is suffering on the offensive end.

    Rush is playing becuase Dunleavy has not been playing to expectations. Had Mike come back and been like he was two years ago Brandon would be playing about what Luther Head does.

    Circumstances have forced O'Brien to play these two, not some desire to see them improve.
    so what, the topic is whether the players development has been delayed - not whether it would have been delayed if Foster and Dun would have been healthy - fact is they weren't.

  4. #304
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    True, but I just didn't want it to be assumed that JOB really was a good coach at developing young talent.

    However to be fair I don't think he would be a bad coach at developing young talent if that young talent played his style of ball.

    That is why you really have to scratch your head at what Bird has done with getting the players he has and keeping the coach he has.
    Oh believe you me, no one thinks Jim is good at developing young talent (or good at much of anything) [me personally I think Jim has been slightly above average at developing young talent - but I know no one else thinks that at all, not at all, not even a little bit. Everyone believes Jim ahtes the young, hates them
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 03-05-2010 at 01:40 PM.

  5. #305
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    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    The developement argument that you are making is really sketchy. What former players were hindered as a result of too many minutes and how do you know that? Each player is different and who knows if its a bad thing for Price, McBOB, Hibbert or even S. Jones.
    I think it hurt Tinsley in some ways that he was the starter his first game. (but I think it probably would have done Tinsley some good to earn his minutes struggle to find minutes.... (his best season was when he didn't start the first 25 games of the season) (I would also argue that if he didn't start at all his rookie season - he still would have been what he was - and that is my major point a player is going to be what a player is going to be.

    Whether a roookie plays 35 games and averages 5 minutes per game or if he plays all 82 and averages 25 minutes per game. That player is going to be the same within a year or two anyway - as their talent, desire, IQ...indicates.

    Playing time for a 1st or second year player is not the panecea that so many suggest in this forum. Obviosuly I am not suggesting lebron james should have sat his rookie season - but we don't have a young player like that. But even if James didn't play at all his rookie season he'd still be what he is today.

  6. #306
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    True, but I just didn't want it to be assumed that JOB really was a good coach at developing young talent.

    However to be fair I don't think he would be a bad coach at developing young talent if that young talent played his style of ball.

    That is why you really have to scratch your head at what Bird has done with getting the players he has and keeping the coach he has.
    To be completely honest, I think there are few to even no coaches in the NBA who are good at developing young talent except when they are forced to do so. This includes when a bad team gets a potential superstar - they ain't playing him minutes just to develop him, they are giving him minutes because he's the best they've got.
    BillS

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  7. #307
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    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think it hurt Tinsley in some ways that he was the starter his first game. (but I think it probably would have done Tinsley some good to earn his minutes struggle to find minutes.... (his best season was when he didn't start the first 25 games of the season) (I would also argue that if he didn't start at all his rookie season - he still would have been what he was - and that is my major point a player is going to be what a player is going to be.

    Whether a roookie plays 35 games and averages 5 minutes per game or if he plays all 82 and averages 25 minutes per game. That player is going to be the same within a year or two anyway - as their talent, desire, IQ...indicates.

    Playing time for a 1st or second year player is not the panecea that so many suggest in this forum. Obviosuly I am not suggesting lebron james should have sat his rookie season - but we don't have a young player like that. But even if James didn't play at all his rookie season he'd still be what he is today.
    I don't agree, I think actual NBA gametime minutes can completely change the learning curve. Now I agree everyone has a ceiling overall, but most guys never reach it, so I guess it's like this to me. Guys can only progress so fast, but you can stifle or stunt that growth by not giving them the minutes to figure it out and develop.

    For example, I pretty much believe AJ belongs in the NBA, I've seen enough to think that. I don't know however, what exactly he needs to work on this summer. I mean I think I know some of it, but why not see the whole picture.

    So AJ works on some of the stuff we know, but maybe he could've identified more.

    This isn't even counting the experience factor of knowing what works at the big table and maybe adjusting that game to game.

    So the statement was it doesn't matter for 2 years down the road, but if you delay development it does to me and then it piggy back each year you don't get that experience/development. It becomes an exponential delay at that point, I think.

    Roy's another example, he limited his own time last year, but still got enough exposure to start to put it together. This year, he's kind of jerked around by match ups and has delayed getting as many lumps as maybe he should have, maybe not.

    Lastly, almost no player reaches their true ceilings, a group gets close, so I think until your body starts to betray you as you get older, these guys need to get as much development in as quickly as possible. Not set them up to fail, mind you, but expediting their development as well as not inhibiting the timeline of growth.

  8. #308
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    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    To be completely honest, I think there are few to even no coaches in the NBA who are good at developing young talent except when they are forced to do so. This includes when a bad team gets a potential superstar - they ain't playing him minutes just to develop him, they are giving him minutes because he's the best they've got.
    Indeed


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  9. #309

    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Heh, how testy. Very unprofessional statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    To be completely honest, I think there are few to even no coaches in the NBA who are good at developing young talent except when they are forced to do so. This includes when a bad team gets a potential superstar - they ain't playing him minutes just to develop him, they are giving him minutes because he's the best they've got.
    Why are you equating developing young talent to force feeding them minutes?

    That's an extremely common assumption among fans (that's why every fan of every team complains about their coach hating the young players) but I've always thought it's an extremely faulty one.

  10. #310

    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I don't know about ruining the future, but I will say he's delaying the future.
    Some would probably contend that JOB is ruining our future's past. Heavy, I know! But the fact is that there will be little from this or the past couple of seasons that will remain memorable about the basketball team itself. At least for me.

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    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Quote Originally Posted by cordobes View Post
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    Why are you equating developing young talent to force feeding them minutes?

    That's an extremely common assumption among fans (that's why every fan of every team complains about their coach hating the young players) but I've always thought it's an extremely faulty one.
    Fair enough, because that is exactly my point of view. I've fallen into the same trap as others with that statement.

    What I should have said was more like "giving young players lots of game time", which is certainly helpful if done right but (in my opinion) is by no means essential to early NBA development.
    BillS

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  13. #312

    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Whether a roookie plays 35 games and averages 5 minutes per game or if he plays all 82 and averages 25 minutes per game. That player is going to be the same within a year or two anyway - as their talent, desire, IQ...indicates.
    You should tell that to Gerald Wallace, Micheal Redd, Chauncey Billups, Corey Maggete, Ben Wallace.

    Guys peak at different times based on experience. The more experience the faster they reach that peak, IMO. Who knows if Price is going to be a starter in the NBA but if you don't let him try you'll never know. Worst yet you could be one of those teams that trades a asset away too early only to find out that you had a very good player on your hands.

    My point is that the Pacers have a great opportunity to let player have some experience while not changing the fact that we are missing the playoffs. Why not take advantage of it.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 03-05-2010 at 03:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Quote Originally Posted by joeyd View Post
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    ...they thought deeply about what they said. You could ask them a question such as "what do you think about this weather?" But they might think about this question this for a full minute before responding. JOB is no Nobel Prize candidate (and I don't mean this in a bad way---how many of us are Nobel candidates?), but someone really should suggest that he think before he speaks.
    I try to do this, also. It gives me time to decide WHICH foot I'm going to put in my mouth, when I do speak.

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    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
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    When I've paid between $6,000-10,000 every season over the last 3 years to watch this moron of a coach make a mockery of the team I love, I'll call him anything I want to. He's just a coach, he's not freaking Ghandi, plus he's making millions of dollars, screw him. I owe him nothing. What? are we gonna hurt his poor wittle feelings.

    He's looks more and more like a incompetent fool daily and he's been a complete tool recently. I don't have the vocabulary to describe how bad I feel about this a-hole, but I'll keep trying, just to p*ss off the "respect" police.

    Venting feels good.
    Wait a minute. You've paid THAT MUCH MONEY to watch this team............and yet.........O'Brien is the moron?

    I'm sorry. I just had to do that.

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    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    Wait a minute. You've paid THAT MUCH MONEY to watch this team............and yet.........O'Brien is the moron?

    I'm sorry. I just had to do that.
    Rant begins:

    On behalf of those of us who have spent big money on tickets in hopes of things beginning to improve while the "Plan" has been developing...

    That said, I finally got to the end of my contract and am now able to spend far less for decent to very good seats for only the games I want to see, so from the outside looking in for the first time in over 10 years, I can see where you would think this is funny.

    I assume that you haven't had to regret spending that big money while those in seats all around you are paying FAR less than you did to watch this poorly coached ineffective product in person, all the while just wishing that someone would just make it all stop and get on with making the changes it will obviously take to improve both coaching and results.

    End of rant.

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    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    Wait a minute. You've paid THAT MUCH MONEY to watch this team............and yet.........O'Brien is the moron?

    I'm sorry. I just had to do that.
    Thanks, I needed that.

    Seriously, this season and JOB have really got under my skin. I can't let all this kill my sense of humor. I'm usually a pretty cheerful person.
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

  19. #317
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    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Quote Originally Posted by joeyd View Post
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    Some would probably contend that JOB is ruining our future's past.
    Silly. But good.

    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  20. #318
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    There's another side to the 'play the young players' argument for me. Sure, you want to get them experience and further their progression sooner rather than later....

    BUT you also want to see what you got with them. You want to see who progresses quickly, who regresses, who doesn't exactly mesh, who doesn't give effort, who doesn't listen to the coach, who is a quick study, who might be better than you thought, who might have a much lower ceiling than you thought....
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  22. #319

    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    There's another side to the 'play the young players' argument for me. Sure, you want to get them experience and further their progression sooner rather than later....

    BUT you also want to see what you got with them. You want to see who progresses quickly, who regresses, who doesn't exactly mesh, who doesn't give effort, who doesn't listen to the coach, who is a quick study, who might be better than you thought, who might have a much lower ceiling than you thought....

    All great reasons, and now is the time to do it at 20-42 with only 20 games left. Unless Bird comes down off his perch and mandates it, I don't see it happening.

  23. #320

    Default Re: Why make this statement???

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Silly. But good.

    You can probably tell that I'm trying to catch up on LOST! I take some solace in the fact that I'll at least have that show to watch after the Pacers season is over, at least for another month...

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