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Thread: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

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    Default Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

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    This was supposed to be the year of Mike Dunleavy's triumphant return, when the smooth versatility of his game would help forge a stronger team and we'd all remember just what this team was missing most of last season.

    The return happened. The triumphs have not.

    Dunleavy has experienced a mysteriously quiet season. His scoring average (10.7) would be the lowest since his rookie season (2002-03), and his shooting percentages (.403 overall, .305 from the 3-point line) are well below normal.

    When he returned to the court in late November, he looked very much like his old self, averaging 15.1 points and shooting .484 overall and .382 from the arc in his first nine games. Since then, however, his productivity has been in a virtual free-fall: 7.8 points, .387 shooting overall and .233 (14 of 60) from the 3-point line in his last 19 games.

    It reached a nadir Saturday, when he played 4 minutes, 28 seconds in a 100-90 victory over the Bulls, his fewest since Feb. 8, 2009, his last game of last season when he re-injured his knee in the opening minutes against Washington.

    "Obviously, there's just not a whole lot of rhythm there," Dunleavy said. "Some of it's out of my control. I've just got to make the most of it and try and help the team win and just try and get better.

    "It's too bad because I thought we had a really good thing going and it's just not going in that direction anymore. Hopefully we can win a different way."

    In 2007-08, the offense ran through Dunleavy and he averaged 19.1 points, 5.2 rebounds, 3.5 assists and shot .424 from the 3-point line. But the team has changed dramatically since then, evolving away from the free-flowing, up-tempo offense that leaned heavily on the instinctive reactions of the passing game.

    "(The passing game) is the game Mike's best suited in," said Coach Jim O'Brien. "We're playing a game Mike's not best suited in because I would say our movement is down, say 40 percent from last year. And it's because of personnel and what the strengths of some guys are but it's certainly not the type of offense we put together with Mike in mind.

    "We put it together with Mike and Danny (Granger) in mind and now we don't seem to be getting the type of offensive rhythm and movement that we want."

    The good news is Dunleavy has experienced no setbacks with the knee.

    "Health is wealth and I feel good and my knee's doing well and that's really important," he said. "In terms of my production, that has nothing (to do with it).

    "I came back and right after the injury was fine. There was nothing wrong with me. Did well. But things have kind of just gone in a different direction and I've got to roll with the punches."

    Though the knee itself is sound, O'Brien believes a contributing factor is a relative lack of leg strength.

    "I would suspect that's part of it," O'Brien said. "When you take that much time off and you lose that much conditioning in your legs, I'm hoping that is the main problem.

    "He's a young man. He's not having any pain, which is good. So you would assume, if that's the case and he can get the leg strength up, then he'll be the player he wants to be and we want him to be."

    Is the evolution away from the offense that so suited Dunleavy's skills permanent? Or is it just a temporary aberration forced by circumstance?

    "I hope so but it's tough," Dunleavy said. "It's something that's tough to replicate. You've got to have guys that really know how to play and see the floor and stuff like that. It's kind of like either you have it or you don't and we've got to have enough guys to be able to do that."

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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    so does this mean that O'Brien is capable of changing the offense to suit the players (other than Mike) . They are running more set plays, less free-flowing passing game that Mike is so good at

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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    "I hope so but it's tough," Dunleavy said. "It's something that's tough to replicate. You've got to have guys that really know how to play and see the floor and stuff like that. It's kind of like either you have it or you don't and we've got to have enough guys to be able to do that."

    What exactly is he wanting to replicate? That team missed the playoffs and was bad, just not as bad as this one.

    "It's too bad because I thought we had a really good thing going and it's just not going in that direction anymore. Hopefully we can win a different way."

    A Really Good Thing is not what we had going... Maybe he should raise his standards a bit?

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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    But the team has changed dramatically since then, evolving away from the free-flowing, up-tempo offense that leaned heavily on the instinctive reactions of the passing game.
    Do I read:
    J.Jack was a direct cause to 40% of our ball movement?

    I don't think it was Rasho, M.Daniels, M.Baston, or S.Graham.
    (OK maybe Q helped some, but he rarely played...)

    Another reason letting J.Jack walk set this team back:
    (1. Leadership
    (2. Passion
    (3. Ball Movement
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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    so does this mean that O'Brien is capable of changing the offense to suit the players (other than Mike) . They are running more set plays, less free-flowing passing game that Mike is so good at
    Just who is he changing the offense to suit exactly? The answer is ... Troy Murphy

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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    I don't know that I believe that.

    I'm sure the style is effecting his play somewhat. But it doesn't effect his shooting, his decision making, his lazy defense..

    Often times there is a mental aspect people with knee injuries have to overcome, and I'm not sure Dun has yet.

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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    "I hope so but it's tough," Dunleavy said. "It's something that's tough to replicate. You've got to have guys that really know how to play and see the floor and stuff like that. It's kind of like either you have it or you don't and we've got to have enough guys to be able to do that."
    Another "shot" at B.Rush?
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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    "It's too bad because I thought we had a really good thing going and it's just not going in that direction anymore. Hopefully we can win a different way."
    Oh but wait a minute

    The Pacers brass has told us that the "Plan" is right on schedule

    Could it be the Pacer Players know more than the BS company line us fans are force fed?
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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    "I hope so but it's tough," Dunleavy said. "It's something that's tough to replicate. You've got to have guys that really know how to play and see the floor and stuff like that. It's kind of like either you have it or you don't and we've got to have enough guys to be able to do that."

    What exactly is he wanting to replicate? That team missed the playoffs and was bad, just not as bad as this one.

    "It's too bad because I thought we had a really good thing going and it's just not going in that direction anymore. Hopefully we can win a different way."

    A Really Good Thing is not what we had going... Maybe he should raise his standards a bit?
    The offense is different this year, less passing game, less backdoor cuts, more set plays, more standing around.......

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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The offense is different this year, less passing game, less backdoor cuts, more set plays, more standing around.......
    Buck

    I dont take that as a big difference in personal

    To me its sounds like frustrated players , giving half an effort

    similar to what Dahanty said earlier
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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerGuy View Post
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    Another "shot" at B.Rush?
    No, it's not a shot at Brandon. It's clearly not a shot at Brandon. I could list the players that it's a shot at, but it's not Brandon..

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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerGuy View Post
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    Another "shot" at B.Rush?
    Just general deflection I think. More blather by Dun, blaming everyone else.

    After watching that youtube vid of Ron totally owning Carmello, this type of drivel by Mike makes me sick. He wishes only that we could have a good thing going like our awesome 35 win team that he was able to get some good stats with.

    Bah.

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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Buck

    I dont take that as a big difference in personal

    To me its sounds like frustrated players , giving half an effort

    similar to what Dahanty said earlier
    I think we found out very early on this season that the new players were not good at the read and react passing game type offense. they needed to be in more set plays.

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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    Yes, let's get to the passing game. Oh, that involves guys like Roy (great passer, high assists by C standards too), Price and Rush. Heck, good old McRoberts has a decent level of assists for a PF who isn't a focal point on offense.


    Seems to me lots of Head, Watson and TJ starting the offense off with a long jumper, not to mention Danny and yep....DUNLEAVY, is creating the diminished passing game. I think it was the Bucks game where I saw Head or someone hand the ball to Dun who then took a 3pt shot with TWENTY seconds on the shot clock. Not some other guys, Dun himself.

    I mean JOB complains that Rush doesn't shoot ENOUGH, so working a passing system is clearly not an issue for Brandon. He passes his way out of shots JOB wants him to take.


    File this one under the same old "WTF are you talking about, you're the one doing this" category. It's like we are meant to believe that pod people invaded and coach the team during games and then Jim is forced to attend the pressers and atone for their crazy alien ways.

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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The offense is different this year, less passing game, less backdoor cuts, more set plays, more standing around.......
    Right, I am not disputing that. But it's not like the previous few years have been something to pine about.

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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Yes, let's get to the passing game. Oh, that involves guys like Roy (great passer, high assists by C standards too), Price and Rush. Heck, good old McRoberts has a decent level of assists for a PF who isn't a focal point on offense.


    Seems to me lots of Head, Watson and TJ starting the offense off with a long jumper, not to mention Danny and yep....DUNLEAVY, is creating the diminished passing game. I think it was the Bucks game where I saw Head or someone hand the ball to Dun who then took a 3pt shot with TWENTY seconds on the shot clock. Not some other guys, Dun himself.

    I mean JOB complains that Rush doesn't shoot ENOUGH, so working a passing system is clearly not an issue for Brandon. He passes his way out of shots JOB wants him to take.


    File this one under the same old "WTF are you talking about, you're the one doing this" category. It's like we are meant to believe that pod people invaded and coach the team during games and then Jim is forced to attend the pressers and atone for their crazy alien ways.
    To be fair, if Dun wants a shot, he better take it when he gets the ball, because with TJ, Head, and to a lesser extent Danny, you aren't getting the ball back.

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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The offense is different this year, less passing game, less backdoor cuts, more set plays, more standing around.......
    One of these things is not like the other. I call this a classic JOB defense line. The old "see, JOB is calling more plays and it's not working" schtick. If only these guys were smart enough to play the free flowing, make it up on the fly style that is classic JOB, they'd be winning.

    The entire reason you call plays is because it is ORGANIZED MOVEMENT AND PASSING. It's LESS set plays, more standing around wondering what to do next because you have no set play to work off of.

    The only time I see good movement is off plays, like the weakside high post backcut that DJones just had the monster dunk off of (and McBob had 2 back to back using), or the double high post screen to lane cut where the high post feeds to someone like Rush cutting the lane after Rush runs across the foul line over both screens.

    That's the good basketball stuff.

    It's the 3PAs which nearly all come off of "I've dribbled 3 times, now i must shoot with 18 seconds on the clock". And we all know that the open 3PA is a JOB mainstay, which the numbers completely back.

    In fact we just had this discussion where I brought out the comparison of the numbers now vs his Boston teams (the winning ones) and right down the line the offensive production matches. It's never been a very good offense, not even when they won in Boston.

    Per possession it is unimpressive in generating points, running more like 15-20th in the league.

    Has JOB just caught a really bad streak of crappy offensive players no matter where he goes, or is this his system in action, which is now being explained away (as it was last year and the year prior).

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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think we found out very early on this season that the new players were not good at the read and react passing game type offense. they needed to be in more set plays.
    That is a good point

    So does the blame lie in Watson or Dahanty Jones?

    These were the only two newcommers that play regularly
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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    To be fair, if Dun wants a shot, he better take it when he gets the ball, because with TJ, Head, and to a lesser extent Danny, you aren't getting the ball back.
    Seems like the point guards take quite a few shots. Too bad we won't get Wall, cause you know that guy would score in buckets.

    I really hate the stagnant offense that we have. Reminds me of old IU games coached by Knight. So dull with all the set plays and players just standing their with their thumbs up their asses. And I'm an IU guy!

    We are frustrated as fans and we can certainly tell the players are frustrated as hell. Just wish Bird would come to his senses and get a new coach soon. I really believe this team is playing and not listening to anything JOB has to say.
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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    Mike is inconsistent.

    Even though Luther is done after this season, I'd give him more time over Mike since he is a better and more consistent shooter.

    Dahntay is going to be here for more seasons to come so of course he should get more time and he's the better defender and better when getting to the basket.

    Brandon is probably a future and core player so he should continue to get more minutes than Mike.

    Nothing against Mike. He won't be here for much longer though.

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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerGuy View Post
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    Do I read:
    J.Jack was a direct cause to 40% of our ball movement?

    I don't think it was Rasho, M.Daniels, M.Baston, or S.Graham.
    (OK maybe Q helped some, but he rarely played...)

    Another reason letting J.Jack walk set this team back:
    (1. Leadership
    (2. Passion
    (3. Ball Movement
    Um, actually Jack was not a member of the team when Mike was having his best season. Jarret came over the summer after.


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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    so does this mean that O'Brien is capable of changing the offense to suit the players (other than Mike) . They are running more set plays, less free-flowing passing game that Mike is so good at
    Jim has always been capable, the problem is his insistance to fit square pegs in round holes.

    He may use more set plays this year than last but that is only after he is drug kicking and screaming in that direction. That is why he hates to have Roy on the floor and at the first instance he tries like hell to get him out.

    Read and react basketball has another name as well, it's called the quick.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Jim has always been capable, the problem is his insistance to fit square pegs in round holes.

    He may use more set plays this year than last but that is only after he is drug kicking and screaming in that direction. That is why he hates to have Roy on the floor and at the first instance he tries like hell to get him out.

    Read and react basketball has another name as well, it's called the quick.
    LOL @ the quick... that is exactly what it is.

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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Um, actually Jack was not a member of the team when Mike was having his best season. Jarret came over the summer after.
    Um, actually I think PacerGuy was responding to this Obie quote

    "(The passing game) is the game Mike's best suited in," said Coach Jim O'Brien. "We're playing a game Mike's not best suited in because I would say our movement is down, say 40 percent from last year. And it's because of personnel and what the strengths of some guys are but it's certainly not the type of offense we put together with Mike in mind.
    JOB says 40% from last year not from Mike's career year - though the implication is of course that the movement for last season (with Jack) was essentially the same as Mike's career year (without Jack).

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    Default Re: Mike's knee is not an excuse for his struggles (Bruno)

    This whole thing with Dunleavy is very strange.

    It seems like there is more than one thing going on. Dun's own problems, Dun's problems with the team, and maybe something else unrelated to Mike's knee problem. I don't know.

    The thing that screws up all the theories is why he played so darn good his first couple of weeks upon returning. Somebody do some research. Was there another major change, lineup, something, that went on around the time Mike switched from Jekyll to Hyde?

    Given that there seem to be some unknowns, my take at this point is that Mike is experiencing real problems (weak leg? another injury? some sickness? vertigo?) that affects his play terribly. (Again, why his first nine games were great, I have no idea at this point.) But, with his refusal to look inward, he is using the change in the team from last year to this year (or two years ago) as a way to explain his personal shortcomings.

    While there is some truth to his contentions that there has been a change and some difference, the problem lies with JOB. He can't say that, even if he believes it, which I doubt.

    I've written elsewhere what I think happened to this team. It wasn't the loss of Jarrett Jack. What happened is that JOB maxed out last year the team's potential with his uptempo offensive oriented philosophy. They could not win any more games that way, and so he said he needed defensive players. He got them. But he wouldn't and couldn't make the switch to a grinding, defensive minded team, despite the fact that early results (the five game win streak) proved he could in fact win that way.

    Refusing to bow to the obvious, he lost the players (except for Murph, and probably lost a portion of Dunleavy.) TJ was already lost, as he doesn't get team ball.
    .

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