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Thread: What's so bad about TJ?

  1. #26
    Member ksuttonjr76's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    He was demoted when he played with Calderon too.

    TJ played bad enough that he deserved the demotion. Although as of right now, I guess you could argue TJ over Watson. Neither one runs the offense too well, but at least TJ scores. Although it's pretty obvious who should be playing.

    I'd like to see him in a system that played him the right way and too his strengths (scoring off the bench)
    I was going to rebuttal this, but then I came across some old threads from Raptors fans when he played for them. It's pretty much the same thing that Pacers fans complain about...

    Looks for his own shot too much....
    Makes a better backup when team needs some scoring...
    Can create his own shots, but doesn't look to pass....
    Over dribbling...
    Low 3PT%....
    Coach (Sam Mitchell) gives him TOO much freedom...
    $5 million dollar move, 5 cent shot...

    Wow, deja vu.

  2. #27

    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    I think TJ has more talent than any of our other PGs.

    I don't understand why everyone is crazy about AJ's prospects. It is clear that AJ will not be our starting PG next year because if that were the idea he would be currently groomed this year and nothing JOB could do would stop that. JOB does not call the shots for the long term of this team-Larry and Morway do and they have decided that AJ is not their future PG. JOB will be very lucky to be around another full season.

    Whatever else we think about JOB, Larry, Morway, and Herb they are not stupid so if AJ is the future the consensus by TPTB would be to play him.
    Is Hibbert not the starting Center either, because he certainly doesn't get the minutes he should. Especially the "I'm not going to start him because he can't handle X" Well if he's going to be the starting center, he's going to need to learn how to play X and the only way to learn how to play X is by playing X.

    As for Price, he played for a month. It would be stupid to say he didn't look like he could have the potential to be a starter. He most certainly did. Not an all star, but a starter. On the other side, it would be stupid to say he'll definitely be the starter. Because we don't know if that good play can continue or improve. The only way to find that out is by playing him.

    I think Larry is very hands off, and he's letting JOB do the decision making. Perhaps he's letting Jim see how a "healthy unit" (minus Jeff and Tyler) would do in his system for a bit, before politely telling JOB it's time to play the younger guys. But the organization is pretty clearly high on Price, Larry himself said "at worst he'll be a fantastic backup." It's not fair to declare him starter or backup with only a month's playing time. And regardless of whether he should be a starter or not, he is the only point guard on this roster the franchise actually wants to have on the team next season..that should be reason enough to play him.

  3. #28

    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Obviously this system isn't playing to TJ's strengths. When he's no longer a Pacer, I'd love to see him with a team that has an athletic frontcourt that sets back screens, plays at and above the rim and works the paint. I think you'd see a different take on his game of dribbling into the paint once he has some legitimate OPTIONS. Let's face it, the most athletic of our 3-5 players is DG who's camped out on the 3pt line AND doesn't attack the basket enough with the ball let alone without it. I don't love TJ or hate him, but I don't think he's a good fit with our current roster as is.

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  5. #29

    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Is Hibbert not the starting Center either, because he certainly doesn't get the minutes he should. Especially the "I'm not going to start him because he can't handle X" Well if he's going to be the starting center, he's going to need to learn how to play X and the only way to learn how to play X is by playing X.

    As for Price, he played for a month. It would be stupid to say he didn't look like he could have the potential to be a starter. He most certainly did. Not an all star, but a starter. On the other side, it would be stupid to say he'll definitely be the starter. Because we don't know if that good play can continue or improve. The only way to find that out is by playing him.

    I think Larry is very hands off, and he's letting JOB do the decision making. Perhaps he's letting Jim see how a "healthy unit" (minus Jeff and Tyler) would do in his system for a bit, before politely telling JOB it's time to play the younger guys. But the organization is pretty clearly high on Price, Larry himself said "at worst he'll be a fantastic backup." It's not fair to declare him starter or backup with only a month's playing time. And regardless of whether he should be a starter or not, he is the only point guard on this roster the franchise actually wants to have on the team next season..that should be reason enough to play him.
    I'm saying that JOB doesn't have the entire say and Hibbert does start and gets his minutes-not enough to satisfy most on this board. But JOB is not the only one making long term decisions so it appears that AJ is for some reason not getting the minutes he needs to lead this team next year. If he is the next starting PG or a fantastic backup we have alot of stupid people from the coach, GM, Pres., and owner making stupid decisions and not preparing him for his future role. I can appreciate some bad decisions but not a totality of bad moves. Logic tells me that they are not grooming AJ for anything big any time soon. You can argue with me that TPTB will give AJ a bigger role soon but they are certainly not helping him in any meaningful way.

  6. #30

    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    I'm saying that JOB doesn't have the entire say and Hibbert does start and gets his minutes-not enough to satisfy most on this board. But JOB is not the only one making long term decisions so it appears that AJ is for some reason not getting the minutes he needs to lead this team next year. If he is the next starting PG or a fantastic backup we have alot of stupid people from the coach, GM, Pres., and owner making stupid decisions and not preparing him for his future role. I can appreciate some bad decisions but not a totality of bad moves. Logic tells me that they are not grooming AJ for anything big any time soon. You can argue with me that TPTB will give AJ a bigger role soon but they are certainly not helping him in any meaningful way.
    Hibbert got 11 minutes two games ago, and I think 20 the game after! He's also been moved out of the starting lineup.

    This is, for whatever reason, a habbit of this organization. To not play the younger guys until someone gets hurt.

    Who knows what they are doing, really. But a month certainly isn't adequat time to decide anything on a guy who looked pretty good.

    Rush doesn't lose minutes because "he can't handle it emotionally" or whatever, but JOB certainly could give him more time.
    Last edited by Sookie; 03-01-2010 at 10:41 PM.

  7. #31
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    I really like TJ as a player, but not in our system and the group of players we have right now. TJ has been a true professional throughout his trials and tribulations this year. I just don't think he meshes well with our current situation. It seems like most people are down on him because of the contract he has. I myself think the contract is a bit big by standards, but he was the one who was given this contract. Anyone would be crazy not to accept a pay raise.

  8. #32
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    TJ's problem is exaccerbated by the fact he plays point guard.

    It's not that he is a bad player, but that he is a bad point guard.

    As an analogy, what if we had a power forward who was bad at defense, rebounding, and low post scoring but a phenomenal passer? Well, the passing is a nice asset, but that's not what we need from a power forward.

    TJ has tremendous one on one scoring abilities. But that's not what we need from a point guard.
    .

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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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  10. #33
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    TJ's problem is exaccerbated by the fact he plays point guard.

    It's not that he is a bad player, but that he is a bad point guard.

    As an analogy, what if we had a power forward who was bad at defense, rebounding, and low post scoring but a phenomenal passer? Well, the passing is a nice asset, but that's not what we need from a power forward.

    TJ has tremendous one on one scoring abilities. But that's not what we need from a point guard.
    It is why I can be convinced to like what I see when he and Earl are on the floor together and Earl is doing the ball handling.
    BillS

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  11. #34
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    $5 million dollar move, 5 cent shot...
    I was going to stay out of this thread, as nobody wants to hear my opinion of TJ Best (??) (Travis Ford?) anymore. But that's really good. I wish I had that line two years ago. Would have saved about 309,864 words from my posts.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  12. #35
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    TJ's problem is exaccerbated by the fact he plays point guard.

    It's not that he is a bad player, but that he is a bad point guard.
    If he had a SG/ SF like Jalen to play alongside, he'd be easier to take. That's probably what saved Travis from being boo'ed out out town a decade ago. Travis had similar flaws, although somewhat different strong points.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  13. #36
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    If he had a SG/ SF like Jalen to play alongside, he'd be easier to take. That's probably what saved Travis from being boo'ed out out town a decade ago. Travis had similar flaws, although somewhat different strong points.
    Travis was a much better finisher.

    Earl at point does help TJ on the offensive end. But then we get creamed on the other end of the court.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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  15. #37
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Travis was a much better finisher.
    Travis was a terrible finisher.

    I'm trying to decide if I totally disagree with your premise or if this is further indictment of just how bad TJ Ford is as a finisher.

    Travis was truly awful at finishing.

    Jay's_Dad@Aisle20/ Section222 used to call the four-corners offense at the end of the quarter the "Travis Best missed layup special."

    But I think I agree with you. Travis was terrible at finishing, but still much, much better than Ford. Ouch!
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  16. #38
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Travis was a terrible finisher.

    I'm trying to decide if I totally disagree with your premise or if this is further indictment of just how bad TJ Ford is as a finisher.

    Travis was truly awful at finishing.

    Jay's_Dad@Aisle20/ Section222 used to call the four-corners offense at the end of the quarter the "Travis Best missed layup special."

    But I think I agree with you. Travis was terrible at finishing, but still much, much better than Ford. Ouch!
    If we're talking about ball handling hands down Travis was much better than TJ.

    Both guys have different playing styles. Travis wasn't much of the finisher like you said.

  17. #39
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsi..._doesnt_w.html


    I got a text message from a good friend back in Indy saying that Mark Boyle and Slick Leonard were very critical of T.J. Ford's nonchalant play.

    They didn't like how Ford was dogging it down court after missing a lay up and they didn't care for him laughing with Lakers guard Jordan Farmar on the court when the Pacers were getting blown out.

    The two referred to Ford as being "unprofessional" and that he should be benched.

    I'm pretty sure Tuesday won't be the last time we see a Pacer looking like he doesn't care during a game.

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  19. #40

    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    I have to be honest, I can't blame TJ for that.

    Why should he care? He wants to get out of here, and I for one, don't blame him. Not to mention, we've made it clear we don't want him, and aren't planning on having him for a point guard. I'd want out too.

    The guy knows that at some point JOB's going to screw around with his playing time, or I dunno, play him at SF or something.

    And it's not like this loss was unexpected. Nor was it like it mattered.

    The only unfortunate thing is that there is a guy sitting on the bench the organization does want to keep, and that does care..JOB just won't play him.

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  21. #41
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Travis was a terrible finisher.

    I'm trying to decide if I totally disagree with your premise or if this is further indictment of just how bad TJ Ford is as a finisher.

    Travis was truly awful at finishing.

    Jay's_Dad@Aisle20/ Section222 used to call the four-corners offense at the end of the quarter the "Travis Best missed layup special."

    But I think I agree with you. Travis was terrible at finishing, but still much, much better than Ford. Ouch!
    Naah, he didn't always do that. Sometimes he passed to a teammate with enough on the clock for it to be firmly in the guys hand when the buzzer went off. See? Not TBest's turnover, oh, no...
    BillS

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  23. #42
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    The only unfortunate thing is that there is a guy sitting on the bench the organization does want to keep, and that does care..JOB just won't play him.
    Exactly. This is the answer to the question for me. What's so bad about TJ right now is that he's not A.J. If they really believe that A.J. is in the future plans for this team, then there isn't any reason not to be playing him. And yes, I know this horse is dead already.

  24. #43
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Naah, he didn't always do that. Sometimes he passed to a teammate with enough on the clock for it to be firmly in the guys hand when the buzzer went off. See? Not TBest's turnover, oh, no...
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  25. #44
    Member ksuttonjr76's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pwee31 View Post
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    Why should he care?

  26. #45

    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    IMO, you guys are over-estimating how bad of a finisher Ford is.

    Last season his Fg% in inside shots was 54.7%. Here's a list of guards who did equal/worse:
    Devin Harris, Ramon Sessions, Ben Gordon, Louis Williams, Rodney Stuckey, OJ Mayo, Baron Davis, Randy Foye, Kevin Westbrook, Ray Felton. Other notable players: Paul Pierce, Ron Artest, Roy Hibbert. A guy like Gerald Wallace who's generally considered a very good finisher wasn't significantly better.

    This season his eFG% in inside shots is 57%. That's an extremely good accuracy for a PG. A guy like Granger doesn't even come close. The only Pacers backcourt player that puts up a better number is Luther Head but he also gets at the rim a lot less than Ford.

    I think there's two reasons for this misconception:

    - Ford was indeed a very poor finisher when he entered the league and that kind of reputation tends to stick around. But generally that's an area of the game where many players tend to improve significantly.

    - I feel he probably misses more uncontested shots at the rim than the regular player and that particular type of miss is more striking and easier to linger in one's memory.

  27. #46
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by cordobes View Post
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    IMO, you guys are over-estimating how bad of a finisher Ford is.

    Last season his Fg% in inside shots was 54.7%. Here's a list of guards who did equal/worse:
    Devin Harris, Ramon Sessions, Ben Gordon, Louis Williams, Rodney Stuckey, OJ Mayo, Baron Davis, Randy Foye, Kevin Westbrook, Ray Felton. Other notable players: Paul Pierce, Ron Artest, Roy Hibbert. A guy like Gerald Wallace who's generally considered a very good finisher wasn't significantly better.

    This season his eFG% in inside shots is 57%. That's an extremely good accuracy for a PG. A guy like Granger doesn't even come close. The only Pacers backcourt player that puts up a better number is Luther Head but he also gets at the rim a lot less than Ford.

    I think there's two reasons for this misconception:

    - Ford was indeed a very poor finisher when he entered the league and that kind of reputation tends to stick around. But generally that's an area of the game where many players tend to improve significantly.

    - I feel he probably misses more uncontested shots at the rim than the regular player and that particular type of miss is more striking and easier to linger in one's memory.
    Yeah, this year, he's at 56.1% at the rim, which puts him slightly above middle-of-the-pack among PG's averaging 20+ mins/game.

    Players of note worse than him are Devin Harris, Chauncey Billups, Rodney Stuckey, Russell Westbrook, Derrick Rose, Aaron Brooks. Brandon Jennings is shooting below 40% at the rim.

    http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.as...0&gp=0&mins=20

    It's not a complete picture, but I'd agree that the criticism are somewhat overstated for the reasons you note.

  28. #47
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Does that FG% include turnovers?

    Or plays where he gets in the air but has no clue what he's going to do next? Maybe he does successfully pass the ball to somebody standing along the perimter so it isn't a turnover attributed to TJ.

    I know it includes blocked shots and intimidated shots.

    As I recall, he does not get to the line very frequently from his dribble penetration either. (The scouting report says there's no reason to foul him, just put a hand up and he can't find the basket.) I believe his quantity of And-1's is pretty low and some of the other guys are better at converting dribble penetration into points because of the number of assists and made FTs that they accumulate which are not part of the "at the rim FG%".

    There's a lot more to being a lousy finisher than just the FG%.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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