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Thread: What's so bad about TJ?

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    Default What's so bad about TJ?

    Why does everyone slam TJ Ford? He's not the best point guard in the world, but he's probably the second best player on the roster right now. I was just reading an NBA top 50 list from 2008 right after he was traded here and he was listed at #45, just one spot behind Granger. He hasn't lost a step at all, it's Jim O'Brien who is ruining him. He averaged 6, 7, 8 assists a game on a regular basis until he got here.

    I can understand the Troy Murphy hate, but why TJ? He was considered a borderline all-star talent when he came here and he definitely still is, but our coach doesn't know how to use him (or how the game of basketball is played.)

    Seriously, O'Brien, give this jack up the three crap up, where has it ever got you or anyone else? Does he think he's some kind of genius with his basketball "philosophy?" There's a reason nobody else follows your strategy...because it's retarded. Maybe if he had the up-tempo personnel for it, but for god's sake he was trying to go up-tempo when we had Jermaine O'Neal on the team. But let's not make this F O'Brien thread, it's just too easy.

    It's just so disappointing to see TJ going to waste because he's probably one of the most talented players we've had come through for awhile. He would have had 15/8 handed to him on a silver platter if he had a halfway normal coach. Do people really think he's that bad? Of all the players on the team he's the quickest, best at creating his own shot, and perhaps the most clutch. He's a great passer too he just doesn't get the proper opportunities to showcase it.

    He also had a great attitude even when he got dropped to THIRD STRING. I love AJ Price, but I think that was a tad harsh. You don't DNP CD your second best player. No way in hell is Earl Watson better...can barely even shoot above 40% and got waived by one of the worst teams in the league last year. TJ Ford has all-star potential...Earl Watson will never even be on the ballot.

    I'm just sick of everyone dumping on him. He's had a rough year, but that probably has a lot to do with the coach. Cut the guy some slack.

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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    In a different system I think people would appreciate him more. The fact that JOB plays him over Price is what irks most people. I really like TJ but would much rather see Price getting his time.

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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Nothing so wrong about him. Yes if used correctly he isn't bad. The worst thing about him is he drives into traffic and turns the ball over. Other than that he is pretty good. His defense this season has been good.

    But overall though if he is your starting point guard I think you are in trouble. if he accepts being a backup he could be one on a really good team

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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    He can't shoot and is a one-on-one player, who fails to get his teamates involved in stretches. There are a lot of PG's guilty of this in the league, however, he's just in a system where chucking up threes is the norm (a terrible fit for him).

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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers_heath View Post
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    He's had a rough year
    Two years.

    He's a nice guy and I've got nothing against him, but right now he's the third best PG on the roster. Last year he was second best.

    It's not wrong to expect more than a backup PG that you're paying 8.5mil/year. And apparently no other team in the league is beating down our door trying to acquire his services.
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Two years.

    He's a nice guy and I've got nothing against him, but right now he's the third best PG on the roster. Last year he was second best.

    It's not wrong to expect more than a backup PG that you're paying 8.5mil/year. And apparently no other team in the league is beating down our door trying to acquire his services.
    third best? AJ Price isn't better than TJ. Not yet. Watson isn't really either...he's just a more conservative choice at starter. If you want to be stuck in mediocracy (at best) forever you go with Watson...if you want to take the chance to actually make something happen you go with Ford. The very fact that Jim O'Brien likes Watson over Ford makes me think I'm onto something.
    Last edited by pacers_heath; 03-01-2010 at 04:42 PM.

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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    I think TJ is an excellent defender. Where he is just pure awful is running the offense, when he drives to the hole, most of the time it results in an airball layup attempt or he jumps in the air and makes a bad pass.

    He also is the worst finisher around the rim I have ever seen. Worse than Tinsley. He has shot at least 40 airball layups this year. Even a wide open layup is going to brick with him most of the time. What is weird is that he has an amazing mid range jumper. How can somoene be so bad at layups and so good at mid range jumpshots?

    I have always thought he would be a great scoring guard off the bench... like Jason Terry is used with the Mavs. You don't want him running your team, but if used properly he can be a great asset to a team.

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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Two years.

    He's a nice guy and I've got nothing against him, but right now he's the third best PG on the roster. Last year he was second best.

    It's not wrong to expect more than a backup PG that you're paying 8.5mil/year. And apparently no other team in the league is beating down our door trying to acquire his services.
    Exactly.

    I have said all along that he fits the Jason Terry role on this team, the PG off the bench that is more scorer than PG. When some of the less talented offensive bench guys are out there he helps you keep getting points on the board. When his scoring comes at the expense of better players, then you have an issue.

    This is why I think Price can start, much like Chalmers was able to start for Miami, or Blake in Portland. Your PG doesn't have to be the top guy on the team anymore than any other position must be. It's just that if he's not then he needs to be able to get the ball to those top dogs well, not lose the ball too often, and occasionally chip in a bucket.

    Almost none of TJ's game applies to that view, and he's not as good as someone like Wade or Roy that can justify dominating the ball so much.

    I LOVED using him in the Terry role behind Jack starting last year, and it worked well. Luckily for us they let Jack go before we saw too much of a good thing.

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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers_heath View Post
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    He was considered a borderline all-star talent when he came here and he definitely still is

    BY WHO!?!?

    If he was that great, he'd have been traded by now. Since he's not been traded, I'd say that pretty much sums up Ford's true value, and that value isn't 8.5 mil. Who wants or needs a 8.5 mil b/u PG? NOT THE PACERS!

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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers_heath View Post
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    third best? AJ Price isn't better than TJ. Not yet. Watson isn't really either...he's just a more conservative choice at starter.
    How are you defining "better?" What is it that makes TJ a good point guard?

    I want a PG (and this collection of players needs a PG) to run the team. TJ can't do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by heath
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    If you want to be stuck in mediocracy (at best) forever you go with Watson...if you want to take the chance to actually make something happen you go with Ford.
    Quick... remind me what TJ's record is over the past two years?
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    There are three things I see wrong with him that would still be making me crazy even if he was universally loved.

    1) On offense, if he does not keep his head up, he simply doesn't see how to get out of a situation. This causes a turnover when he gets trapped on a dribble or tries to make a pass after a player has moved or a passing lane is jumped. He sometimes simply jumps into the air to see where he can put the ball. Even in a relatively good game on Saturday against the Bulls, he had 3 quick turnovers in the first quarter from this kind of stuff.

    2) His passes are almost always low or off center. This prevents the person getting the ball from doing so in rhythm, which is one of the reasons we aren't seeing a lot of quick moves or shots after getting the ball from TJ.

    3) His defense is OK if he doesn't get distracted by someone dribbling behind him. He turns to go "help" - I put that in quotes because it seems really to be more like turning to try to slap the ball away, he really isn't going to cut off a passing lane or a drive to the basket or a shot - and leaves his man open. His man gets the ball and has a wide open shot or passing lane. I've called this the TJ "pick-n-roll-without-a-pick".

    Since he is the only one I see do this, I really don't think it is what JOB has told him to do. If you disregard the conspiracy theories and actually assume someone on the coaching staff is minimally competent, it could very well be one of the things that he got benched for.
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    What's so bad about TJ? Tell me if this looks familiar:

    Dribble inside to the paint....dribble dribble more.....realize that there are a forrest of Big Men surrounding him.....THEN he decides to pass and ( usually ) turn the ball over.

    He's a quick PG that can dribble his way inside the paint....the problem is that he's a man without a plan when he gets there.

    TJ isn't a bad PG.....he's just not a good fit for JO'Bs offense.
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    TJ isn't a good point guard.

    He makes bad decisions, dribbles too much, doesn't run the floor well, is turnover prone, and can't spread the floor. And doesn't have any of the intangibles needed to be a good point guard. And he's been thrown in a system where the coach wants him to do things he's not comfortable with (shooting threes) and things he's bad at (making decisions with the ball)

    However, he is certainly capable of being an effective scorer off the bench. His free throw line jump shot is amazing. Possibly best in the league. He's quick and can get to the basket efficiently, and when he tries he can defend well.

    Problem I think we all have, or most of us, is that the FO has made it clear that Ford isn't part of our future core, and Price is. Price is also a better point guard (maybe not a more talanted player..but better point guard) and should be playing, so fair or not, TJ gets scapegoated a bit for that. (really, I think with the Ford/Earl/Head lineup, we might want to question Head's minutes..or hell, there's enough minutes to play four guards)

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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    I think TJ is an excellent defender. Where he is just pure awful is running the offense, when he drives to the hole, most of the time it results in an airball layup attempt or he jumps in the air and makes a bad pass.

    He also is the worst finisher around the rim I have ever seen. Worse than Tinsley. He has shot at least 40 airball layups this year. Even a wide open layup is going to brick with him most of the time. What is weird is that he has an amazing mid range jumper. How can somoene be so bad at layups and so good at mid range jumpshots?

    I have always thought he would be a great scoring guard off the bench... like Jason Terry is used with the Mavs. You don't want him running your team, but if used properly he can be a great asset to a team.
    Totall agree with this. However, he doesn't have the three like the Jet. If he could develop that-never has gotten close-he'd be a sure fire Microwave guard off the bench. D's been somewhat better this season than last, but I disagree with those who say he's a good defender. Mediocre at best.
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    He sometimes makes poor decisions on going under screens on shooters. A big part of defense is scouting and being prepared on how to defend individuals. So he is mediocre there. But he gives good effort and has quick hands and quick feet.

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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Since he has been here I have always thought he should be better than what he is.

    Honestly he should be a lot better than what he is and I don't know if thats because he doesn't want to get better or if he is just too limited as a basketball player. I see no reason why he can't improve his 3 point shot, his assist to tunover ratio and his ability to finish in the paint. Ever see the floater in the lane. There are shots that can compensate for being small he is just not willing to master them.

    Personally I have given up on him. I don't think its a system thing I think its a Ford thing.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 03-01-2010 at 05:15 PM.

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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    -Undersized
    -Not a good shooter
    -Not a good finisher
    -Turnover prone
    -Really just an under 6' SG
    -Makes $8.5M a year

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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    I always love to see some T.J. love around here, as rare as it may be nowadays.
    As for the criticism, here is my two cents:

    As for T.J. being "the worst finisher around the rim I have ever seen", umm... the guy is shooting about fifty percent on two pointers for the season. That is not only better than Price and Watson, but better than Hibbert and all of our regular post players.

    As for T.J. being "turnover prone", the stats simply do not support this. He has averaged between two and three turnovers per game his entire career. That is about what you can expect from a point guard.

    As for him not being a good shooter, well this is true to an extent. He doesn't have great range, really he should rarely, if ever, shoot threes. However, he has a great midrange jumper, which he can create for himself. So, no, he isn't a three point shooter, but he isn't a bad shooter.

    T.J. is a very good basketball player. Unfortunately, this team plays something that in no way resembles basketball. Mark my words, T.J. will be a good starter again in this league (though probably not with the Pacers).
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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    TJ hits 56% of his shots at the rim this year. Last year he shot 51% at the rim.

    http://www.nba.com/hotspots/

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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    1. Extremely ball dominant. Doesn't play off-the-ball.

    2. Inconsistent defender who takes possessions and plays off. I don't think his size is much of an issue when he's contesting shots.

    3. Inconsistent and streaky outside shooter.

    4. Lacks elite decision-making and court-vision. Relies on the same kind of play-making.

    He sometimes struggles to finish at the rim (even though I think he was worse at this earlier in his career). I disagree that he's turnover prone, I think he takes care of the ball, that's probably one of his assets.

    That said, I don't think Ford is really "that bad"; he's overpaid and nowadays a bellow average starter but I agree he's the best PG for the Pacers. He had a terrible stretch this season though; it was painful to see him playing.

  24. #21

    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    I don't think it's anything against TJ as a person.

    The Pacers are a bad team. When some of your highest paid players are not exactly your best players they will take the heat. He isn't going to improve a lot either so people would rather see AJ play.

    As someone else said he is best a guard off the bench where he can provide a scoring punch.

    I blame the system too. I think it's a terrible one for TJ.

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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rommie View Post
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    I don't think it's anything against TJ as a person.

    The Pacers are a bad team. When some of your highest paid players are not exactly your best players they will take the heat. He isn't going to improve a lot either so people would rather see AJ play.

    As someone else said he is best a guard off the bench where he can provide a scoring punch.

    I blame the system too. I think it's a terrible one for TJ.
    I don't think pushing the ball up the court and jacking up threes, while neglecting talented post players like Hibbert can be called a system

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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PostArtestEra View Post
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    I always love to see some T.J. love around here, as rare as it may be nowadays.
    As for the criticism, here is my two cents:

    As for T.J. being "the worst finisher around the rim I have ever seen", umm... the guy is shooting about fifty percent on two pointers for the season. That is not only better than Price and Watson, but better than Hibbert and all of our regular post players.

    As for T.J. being "turnover prone", the stats simply do not support this. He has averaged between two and three turnovers per game his entire career. That is about what you can expect from a point guard.

    As for him not being a good shooter, well this is true to an extent. He doesn't have great range, really he should rarely, if ever, shoot threes. However, he has a great midrange jumper, which he can create for himself. So, no, he isn't a three point shooter, but he isn't a bad shooter.

    T.J. is a very good basketball player. Unfortunately, this team plays something that in no way resembles basketball. Mark my words, T.J. will be a good starter again in this league (though probably not with the Pacers).
    TJ hits 56% of his shots at the rim this year. Last year he shot 51% at the rim.

    http://www.nba.com/hotspots/
    I don't think it's anything against TJ as a person.

    The Pacers are a bad team. When some of your highest paid players are not exactly your best players they will take the heat. He isn't going to improve a lot either so people would rather see AJ play.

    As someone else said he is best a guard off the bench where he can provide a scoring punch.

    I blame the system too. I think it's a terrible one for TJ.
    I agree with all this points. Also, people keep forgetting that TJ Ford lost his starting positions mostly due to injury. JOB (surprise, surprise, surprise) is really the only the coach who blatantly demoted him.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._J._Ford

    I really believe that Ford is a good PG who is coachable. Ford is playing the way he is, because JOB green lighted the actions. How hard is it REALLY to stop dribbling into traffic? How hard is it to REALLY stop jumping in the air THEN deciding to make a pass? It's not noticeably with Watson, because he's a more methodical PG who lacks dribble skills. Truth be told, I have seen flashes of Ford in Price when he plays big minutes.

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    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    I agree with all this points. Also, people keep forgetting that TJ Ford lost his starting positions mostly due to injury. JOB (surprise, surprise, surprise) is really the only the coach who blatantly demoted him.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._J._Ford

    I really believe that Ford is a good PG who is coachable. Ford is playing the way he is, because JOB green lighted the actions. How hard is it REALLY to stop dribbling into traffic? How hard is it to REALLY stop jumping in the air THEN deciding to make a pass? It's not noticeably with Watson, because he's a more methodical PG who lacks dribble skills. Truth be told, I have seen flashes of Ford in Price when he plays big minutes.
    He was demoted when he played with Calderon too.

    TJ played bad enough that he deserved the demotion. Although as of right now, I guess you could argue TJ over Watson. Neither one runs the offense too well, but at least TJ scores. Although it's pretty obvious who should be playing.

    I'd like to see him in a system that played him the right way and too his strengths (scoring off the bench)

  28. #25

    Default Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    I think TJ has more talent than any of our other PGs.

    I don't understand why everyone is crazy about AJ's prospects. It is clear that AJ will not be our starting PG next year because if that were the idea he would be currently groomed this year and nothing JOB could do would stop that. JOB does not call the shots for the long term of this team-Larry and Morway do and they have decided that AJ is not their future PG. JOB will be very lucky to be around another full season.

    Whatever else we think about JOB, Larry, Morway, and Herb they are not stupid so if AJ is the future the consensus by TPTB would be to play him.

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