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Thread: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

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    Default Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    Sorry guys, I hate to do this. I usually support Bird, but after seeing all of these rookies that we passed on the 09 draft day really makes my skin crawl. I don't want to hear about how we can't judge Hansbrough yet. When he was playing, he wasn't doing anything except running around and diving recklessly. His hustle and heart, combined with a now obvioius lack of talent, can only take him so far.

    Look at Darren Collision. He is already better than all four of our PGs. Ty Lawson is showing all the signs of a productive PG. Omri Casspi plays like a veteran. Taj Gibson is a double-double machine. How could we have passed on these guys?

    Bird is fooling us all, and I just can't trust this guy with his horrible draft record.

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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    Dude... I believe you to be delusional. Your perspective on his decision is ridiculous.

    "Bird should be shot for passing on Manu Ginobili." This type of thinking is so retrospective it is ridiculous. So should the other 28 NBA teams that passed on him twice.

    He brought in Brandon Rush and Roy Hibbert. They are far from misses. TH needs more playing time to have a decision made on him.

    Lawson was high on our radar, but PF was a bigger need and IMO you should almost always go big over small in a draft, when players talent evaluation is that close. Omri Casspi was a second rounder I believe and he plays SF. Just like our franchise player. I was HUGE on Taj Gibson in last year's draft, but he was an extreme reach at 13. He too was a second rounder. And Darren Collison is playing very well. People liked his game but there were 7 PGs rated higher than him in the draft. If we had three first rounders he still would not have been one of them.

    Your thinking is way off base. I think Bird is a very good judge of talent. I like Tyler being on our team and I HATE UNC. I rooted against the guy all through college. But Tyler was a very good, safer pick for us at 13. I think we understood when drafting him that he would solidify our rotation in the front court, but by no means be a clear cut starter. He has a role on this team for the long haul. Give it a rest and be patient.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    I think Hansbrough has the talent and skill to play in the NBA and to be worthy of being picked where he was. Playing with hustle and heart is a real NBA skill and talent (otherwise every other player would play that hard or could play that hard)
    I've seen enough of Tyler to think if he gets his ear thing straightened out he'll be a very, very valuable contribututor to this team.

    I am still very happy/satisfied with Bird taking Tyler - I think Hans is a keeper

    On to your general point, I think Bird is OK as a drafter. Roy, Rush and Hans are all good picks.

    I forget when Bird took over drafting from Walsh. I think Bird drafted Williams - which was a mistake. Did Bird draft Granger? Assuming he did that was a great pick, some will say that was a bo-brainer - whatever, if you are going to be critical when things don't work out then you have to give him credit when it does.

    The best drafters in the NBA miss a lot of times, every team in the NBA can look back years later and say, we should have taken so and so instead of the player we did

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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    I think he has a point. Birds draft record so far can be seen as average at best. I still believe he could have found a way prior to the draft to get both Tyler and Lawson

    I am split on Tyler, sometimes I think he will turn out to be a strong post player, other times I think he should be playing backyard football

    One thing I will say is its very easy to judge the draft after its completed and go back and say whom should have been drafted

    I mean I was big on us taking Earl Clark, and being I reside in Phoenix, I can tell you he never gets off the bench

    hindsight is always 20/20

    I also am nervous if we get a top 5 pick next year, and also if Bird is here when the contracts expire.

    If he makes poor decisions and looks up money on average players it will be along long long time before Pacers make a run
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    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    Frankly, the Shawne Williams pick was inexcusable. And it was at the time, screw hindsight. It was a ridiculous pick to anyone who had seen Memphis play more than a game that year. When you add in all the quality PGs on the board (which was our #1 need, not another swingman), it was one of the most shocking moments I can remember watching the draft. And the less said about the James White fiasco the better.

    Bayless and Hibbert were great picks. Trading Bayless/Diogu for Rush/McBob/Jack in a vacuum was fine, but not good for the makeup of our team.

    Hands? Personally I wouldn't have touched him, but he was playing better than I expected, so I'm willing to give him a pass for now. Bird admits Lawson was his second choice, and we all know he would have drafted him if that Chicago 2-for-1 hadn't been screwed up by Charlotte picking Henderson a pick earlier.
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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    Absolutely not.

    In competitive playing time, AJ's got about the same numbers as Ty, in less the time.
    He also badly outplayed Collison when we played NO, and both got playing time. Price is right up there with the rest of the point guards, after the Tyreke/Jennings pick. And you got him at 52nd. That's called a REALLY GOOD pick.

    Roy, has shown a TON of promise. He is inconsistent, but he's young. We got a really good young center, which is really hard to get, at 17th (?), one again, quite a good pick from Bird.

    Rush, I think is a very good player. He's talented enough to be a fantastic shooting guard, particularly since his defense is so strong. He needs the right mentality to get there. But maybe he's just "filling in" and not being aggressive on offense, because too many people on this team are aggressive on offense. Personally, I'd rather Rush not take bad shots too.

    Tyler, I think that it's unfair to call yet. He was, without a doubt, a fantastic college basketball player. And I think in most cases that translates. So long as his ear heals, my guess is we will like the pick.

    I've said it before, I think in five years (baring injury) people are going to look back at this year's draft and say Bird did an incredible job. Think of it this way, Bird was the only GM to get two players, who were the best players on a final four team. (Or second best, if you want to say Ty is better than Tyler) And he got them at the 13th and 52nd pick.


    I think his problem though, as a GM is he is too conservative. More so with trades than drafts. I can't really seem to blame him though. Indiana has gotten bitten by not being conservative for both.
    Last edited by Sookie; 02-25-2010 at 11:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    Pacergod2- you are mistaken. please get your facts straight. After reading the following, I have lost all respect for you:

    "Omri Casspi was a second rounder I believe and he plays SF. Just like our franchise player. I was HUGE on Taj Gibson in last year's draft, but he was an extreme reach at 13. He too was a second rounder."

    BOTH of these guys were picked in the first round by teams that correctly evaluated talent. Casspi at 23, and Gibson at 26. Please get your facts straight before you insult me.

    As far as guys defending Rush, what are you guys seeing? We tried to trade him for crying out loud. If he was any good he would have made the rookie/soph allstar game. Rush is 0-2 playing in these games.

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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    I look at Bird and see an average drafter... it's kind of hard to think highly of him when you have an amazing drafter at the helm of the other pro team in town. I was pretty mad when Bird took Hansbrough, I was really hoping for Jrue Holliday or Ty Lawson, but from what little we've seen of Hansbrough this season I became ok with the pick and glad we got him. I don't think Bird is an amazing drafter, but he also isn't as terrible as you make him out to be.

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    Member BornReady's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    i dont think bird is a bad drafting gm. sure i felt that way when he drafted hasnbrough, but hansbrough absolutely did show promise before his ear infection, which nobody could have predicted. aj price thus far has been a steal. as second years, i think rush and hibbert have progressed nicely. i too was upset when he traded bayless for rush, however. in hindsight i can see why he did that (he does have that i like more experienced seasoned players mentality.) i suppose the shawne williams draft pick was a little questionable, especially since i was real high on rondo. nba draft is difficult, and its hard picking out whos going to boom or bust. since shawne bird def has taken the conservative route, but i dont think anyone can really fault him for that.

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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaas0532 View Post
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    Pacergod2- you are mistaken. please get your facts straight. After reading the following, I have lost all respect for you:

    "Omri Casspi was a second rounder I believe and he plays SF. Just like our franchise player. I was HUGE on Taj Gibson in last year's draft, but he was an extreme reach at 13. He too was a second rounder."

    BOTH of these guys were picked in the first round by teams that correctly evaluated talent. Casspi at 23, and Gibson at 26. Please get your facts straight before you insult me.

    As far as guys defending Rush, what are you guys seeing? We tried to trade him for crying out loud. If he was any good he would have made the rookie/soph allstar game. Rush is 0-2 playing in these games.





    Got to say that was well put
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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    Bird is horrible.....at all aspects of running a basketball team in my opinion. I've given up explaining my viewpoint and quite frankly I've given up on the Indiana Pacers.

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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    Right now I don't think Bird deserves either extreme (best/worst) with regards to his drafting. I think as of now he's "okay".

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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaas0532 View Post
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    Pacergod2- you are mistaken. please get your facts straight. After reading the following, I have lost all respect for you:

    "Omri Casspi was a second rounder I believe and he plays SF. Just like our franchise player. I was HUGE on Taj Gibson in last year's draft, but he was an extreme reach at 13. He too was a second rounder."

    BOTH of these guys were picked in the first round by teams that correctly evaluated talent. Casspi at 23, and Gibson at 26. Please get your facts straight before you insult me.

    As far as guys defending Rush, what are you guys seeing? We tried to trade him for crying out loud. If he was any good he would have made the rookie/soph allstar game. Rush is 0-2 playing in these games.
    Hey rookie, even if you have a point (which I don't think you do), I'm not going to take you very seriously if you "lose all respect" for someone who just posted their opinion or made a mistake. Need to tone down your awesomeness.

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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    bhaas.

    Definitely not trying to insult you. I just hate this retrospective line of thinking. It has nothing to do with you personally. The situation must be considered as to what is presentable at the time of the decision.

    Casspi and Gibson were late first rounders, not second. My apologies. But my line of thinking was not wrong. Casspi and Gibson were both late firsts. Casspi still plays SF and Gibson was still an extreme reach at 13 - at the time. I like both of their games, but no team would have drafted either at 13. Last year we had only the 52nd pick, which won't get you much in trade value. This year we have a chance of having a very high second which could get us into the late first fairly easily, unlike last year.

    Hansborough was a solid decision. We can't look back and have it both ways. We take a risk by drafting Williams, who had the physical ability to be great, but the guy was a head case and we condemn Bird. We draft TH and we condemn Bird this time for being too conservative. We had a much better team when we took Williams who could have been great. We had the ability to take a risk. Last year if we take the risk, we put the franchise back 3 more years because we miss on someone. We didn't have the luxury of taking a chance last year. We knew what we got. That was important.

    Again I apologize bhaas if you took offense at the things I said. I don't think I was wrong in intent, but may have been a bit too direct and was wrong on my assertion that they were second rounders.

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    Play McRoberts and Price! BRushWithDeath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    I'm one of Hansbrough's biggest critics on this board and even I think this thread is stupid.
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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    Also, Williams athleticism and physical ability were great value at 17. Williams was just an immature and lazy person, which translated to the basketball court. Sometimes it is difficult to know that going into a draft and I think Bird has learned from his mistake by going for older more mature players who you have a better read on their emotional make-up and work ethic.

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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    I'm one of Hansbrough's biggest critics on this board and even I think this thread is stupid.
    Easy man

    No need to say it is stupid

    'He just thinks Bird has done a poor job at evaluating talent

    He has aright to his opinion

    as do you

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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think Hansbrough has the talent and skill to play in the NBA and to be worthy of being picked where he was. Playing with hustle and heart is a real NBA skill and talent (otherwise every other player would play that hard or could play that hard)
    I've seen enough of Tyler to think if he gets his ear thing straightened out he'll be a very, very valuable contribututor to this team.

    I am still very happy/satisfied with Bird taking Tyler - I think Hans is a keeper

    On to your general point, I think Bird is OK as a drafter. Roy, Rush and Hans are all good picks.

    I forget when Bird took over drafting from Walsh. I think Bird drafted Williams - which was a mistake. Did Bird draft Granger? Assuming he did that was a great pick, some will say that was a bo-brainer - whatever, if you are going to be critical when things don't work out then you have to give him credit when it does.

    The best drafters in the NBA miss a lot of times, every team in the NBA can look back years later and say, we should have taken so and so instead of the player we did
    The more I look at that pick the more I think Walsh picked Willaims. IT certianly follows his M.O. and not Birds. I always find it incredibly convenient that people dog that pick when the same people want us to draft very young prospects in the hope that they turn out to be the next big thing. We took a flier on him and he turned out to be a bust. Do that with picks 1-7 and I would be pissed. Do that with the 17th pick and I say they were trying to strike gold, see Granger.

    I wonder if we would even have this discussion if Tyler was playing.

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    I'm on a MAC! graphic-er's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    I'd say the picks that bird has been responsible for have all been solid picks, but they don't appear to be record changing picks. Their safe picks, perhaps these guys will be the steady back ups to what ever star players he is able to trade or sign for.

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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    Pacergod2- apology accepeted.

    I am just frustrated knowing that we passed up on Gibson, even though he wasn't projected to go as high as thirteen by the "experts." Gibson tore it up as a Freshman at USC during the NCAA tournament. I don't know if you guys remember but USC was really handing it to UNC, and Gibson was ballin. But once he got in foul trouble, UNC got on a run and ended up winning the game.

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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    The more I look at that pick the more I think Walsh picked Willaims. IT certianly follows his M.O. and not Birds. I always find it incredibly convenient that people dog that pick when the same people want us to draft very young prospects in the hope that they turn out to be the next big thing. We took a flier on him and he turned out to be a bust. Do that with picks 1-7 and I would be pissed. Do that with the 17th pick and I say they were trying to strike gold, see Granger.

    I wonder if we would even have this discussion if Tyler was playing.
    We had this discussion last time. Walsh didn't even attend the press conference, nor was he once mentioned by Bird or Carlisle while they both espoused their love for Shawne and his extreme awesomeness. I posted the transcript before, feel free to go find it. Bird also had a pre-draft PC where he talked about what he was planning on doing. If Walsh was pulling the strings, Bird took every opportunity to take credit.
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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    I think Bird is just average. I'm not sure I read when he really took over, but I do know the last couple of drafts have been him. Not great, not bad either.

    I still don't like the Hansborough pick, but I don't see anyone else who would have blown me away by getting.

    The real test is what does Bird do with potentially high pick.
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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    It's been written (Monteith I think) that Bird's had complete control of the draft since day one. Donnie only stepped back up front to help with the backdraft of the brawl etc... Larry still made all draft decisions while Donnie helped clear out existing players deemed trouble makers... I have no reason to believe otherwise. That lays every draft since Harrison at Bird's feet including the good.

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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    I don't think Bird has drafted terrible at all. I think he's drafted safe in recent years, and you can understand why given recent history.

    I think this upcoming draft will say a lot

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    Default Re: Is Bird the worst drafting GM in the NBA?

    on shawne - if people want to say that he was a walsh pick, then danny (picked the year before) must have been too.

    i think that the draft is too unpredictable to judge gm's on just one or two picks. the bulls look good for picking gibson at 26, sure, but they also picked james johnson at 16. that doesn't say good things about their judgment. or how about milwaukee. getting jennings this year is nice, but they also picked joe alexander last year.

    cherry picking all the gems in the draft to "prove" that our drafting is bad? i don't think that works. i mean, even bad gm's occasionally get lucky in the draft now and then.

    now, i do think that some gm's are better at drafting than others. houston for example is doing very well imo. or how about the spurs - their record of consistently good picks has been solid for how many years now.

    as for bird, i think it's a bit early to judge. i'd say rush, hibbert, hansbrough, and price are looking solid right now. we don't have a draft gem yet but neither do they look like busts at this point.

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