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Thread: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

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    Default Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    Honestly I wasnít sure I was going to do another one of these this season up until the last game but after seeing the game tonight vs. the Mavericks I felt inspired to write for some reason.

    This post may be somewhat combative as I have been going through all the different stages of death and grief and tonightís emotion de jour is anger.

    I want to put an argument we have been having for a couple of seasons now to bed.

    Josh McRoberts belongs in the NBA. All season long we have read some people come on here and make prognostications that Josh has no NBA talent or skill.

    That is just hyperbole and frankly it is becoming hyperbole at the highest level, high enough to rival the anti-OíBrien hyperbole that some of them get so mad about.

    Now before we go off of the deep end with what I am saying be sure to understand what I mean.

    I mean that Josh has the talent level to play in the NBA. IMO, he has the talent level to actually play a decent role on a team like the Pacers in the NBA.

    I am NOT saying he should be a starter, a star, an all-star or even the 6th man. I am however though saying that playing D. Jones and Mike Dunleavy at the 4 spot on the floor on a consistent basis for extended min. at a time is a damn foolish thing to do.

    The end of the first quarter of that game was actually entertaining for me to watch. Did you see how S. Jones and Josh were not allowing the Mavericks to just have their way in the paint and then all of a sudden the guards also had to alter their shots? Well that is because we actually had an athletic front line that defended the paint. Notice Dirk didnít do much of anything at that time? Thatís because Josh was not allowing him open spots on the floor and closed out on him very rapidly.

    OíBrien defenders can make all forms of excuses about why Troy plays and gets big min. and they can make an argument for almost everything that he does (not that I believe most of it but I can understand some of it) but the one thing I will never EVER understand is the fact that the guy refuses to play a traditional lineup of big men that are athletic.

    Roy Hibbert goes to the bench in should come Solomon. Murphy comes out in should come McRoberts. Now obviously this changes once Tyler comes back but I am not sure that is going to happen this season

    Our wing players and point guard all play better with these guys in here as they know on defense if they miss a play one of the two of them will be there to pick up the slack.

    On offense Jones can hit the mid range jumper and Josh may have the best offensive recognition of any of our big men on the team.

    Every single time that Josh gets a dunk in traffic or makes a no look pass to a cutter for a lay up it is because he created it.

    That dunk he did with Mike was a shot he created because he recognized the defense was not paying attention to him and kicked it into high gear to get the easy two.

    That no look pass he threw to A.J. for a lay up at the end of the game was created because he looked the defender off of the ball for what ended up being any easy two.

    This is not the first time he has played well this season. In fact other than one game that comes to mind I will say that every single time he has been given a chance to play he has actually contributed in a positive fashion on the floor.

    Now I know someone is going to be a smart @ss and say well why donít we trade him for LeBron or do you think the Cavaliers need to throw in a first rounder as well.

    Itís not like that. Iím not stating the guy is all world, Iím just saying there is zero reason he should not be playing.

    Yes, if I had my way he would play more than Troy but I am not going to sit here and advocate that. I am just saying that when Troy goes down for a breather there is no reason Josh should not be coming in to spell him.

    Hell Mike played better when Josh was on the floor and actually looked like he enjoyed playing.

    Ok moving on to other issues.

    Why God must Brendan Haywood turn into Patrick Ewing every single time we play him? I donít care if itís Jermaine, Roy, Jeff or whoever. This guy has to circle the dates on the calendar when he plays the Pacers because he almost always goes off on us. Thank God he is now out west where we only have to see him twice a year.

    Butler is one heck of a good pick up for them and I think he is going to make them a very tough team to beat in the West. Probably not enough to take the Lakers but I donít think L.A. will sweep them either.

    A.J. Price, yeah good call on that one Jim.

    BTW, I was never so disappointed than yesterday when KnicksRGarbage pointed out to me that Roy Hibbert was doing nothing more than the John Wall dance the other night. I thought Roy came up with something new and inspired. 

    I donít really even care to break the game or team down anymore as I have written this season off and am just hoping for a surprise in the draft (a nice surprise please) so I will let everyone else break down the game.

    I just wanted to get my disgust out there about the entire Josh McRoberts and Solomon Jones issue.

    Actually my real concern now is that Jim will start using them together and we actually wonít just be seeing what we have but will play well enough with them to win a few games.

    So maybe I shouldnít look a gift horse in the mouth here. By all means Mike Dunleavy at the power forward spot for the rest of the season?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    Totally agree on McRoberts. Unfortunately, when Granger returns we'll just go back to a Granger/Murphy/Hibbert frontcourt.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    I can't recall any posts saying Josh is devoid of NBA level talent. Plenty of people are confounded by the incredibly high valuation of the kid, but I don't think there is a large contingency of "them" Josh haters / O'Brien supporters out there. The two positions don't necessarily go hand in hand, either.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    Judicata, these 3 quotes came from a thread from last week. If you do a quick search, I'm sure there are a couple years worth of stuff very similar to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I can watch Price for 15 minutes of game time and I can see a future. He's an NBA player. I have watched probably every minute McBob has played as a pacers player over almost two years and I'll, say he doesn't have NBA skills, talent, or ability.

    Some players have it and some don't. McRoberts doesn't have it.

    I would have no problem if he got 15 minutes per game the rest of the year as that hopefully would end this silly debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    So I am almost pre-determined to like McBob as a player, but I don't see a hustle player and I see no real NBA ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Passing - equal. Both are surprisingly good.
    ball handler - I honestly have no idea. Not that important for either
    Offensive player - both are bad. Jeff has a lot more experience, but OK Josh is better

    OK, aren't both players here for defense, rebounding, hustle, intangibles. So aren't those the important categories. Jeff is head and shoulders better than Josh in everyone of these categories. Within two years when Josh is out of the NBA and never to be heard from again - I will rest my case.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    Ok, out of my own curiosity, I decided to do a quick little search myself. It turned up this gem from December:

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I'm not a stat guy, a lot of what I judge players on is very subjective and the first thing I look for is a simply pass/fail type of thing: I ask myself after watching a player, "does he look like an NBA player?" I think that is a pretty low bar for most players. Eddie Gill didn't pass the test in my eyes, John Edwards didn't either and josh McRoberts doesn't pass in my opinion. I tend to error on the side of giving the player the benefit of the doubt, so almost every player passes the test. Sorry, I don't have a more stats based approach.

    What basketball skill does Josh have? Sure he plays hard, but you need another skill. Before you scream, what about Foster, what about Foster. Fair question, Jeff has alot more going for him than he plays hard, he has a great ability to track down the ball "has a nose for the ball" he also has very quick feet for a guy his size, and he has pretty good passing skills. He also has a decent feel for the game. Josh IMO plays hard is a decent athlete, but has nothing else
    I'm still waiting for an explanation on what these "NBA skills" I keep hearing about are. They sound neat.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    I am frankly just about finished with the Josh McRoberts argument. He's making no look passes from the ****ing arc and we have people on here saying they see no skills. He has an impact in just about every game he plays in. There's no reason he should be getting DNPCDs, but he will because he doesn't have a jump shot.

    I wish he'd gone to Indiana instead of Duke. I don't know wtf else could be causing the ignorance of his skills. .

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I wish he'd gone to Indiana instead of Duke. I don't know wtf else could be causing the ignorance of his skills. .
    My best guess: nail, meet head.

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    Exclamation Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    Thank You Peck...

    For speaking sentiments that echo my own, as well as probably a good number of other members here whom are just as frustrated with the absolute absurdity of certain decisions by the Pacers coaching staff and/or front office regarding but not limited to : the total misuse of certain Pacers players or non-use....


    Sometimes it just makes me wanna pull my hair out , and wish that these players would be traded.... NOT because I don't like them , but because they deserve soo much better , and deserve a chance to excel and have the chance to BE what we know they are capablle of bringing to the court... with a team/coach who recognizes and will utilize them and give them a fighting chance instead of using them as end of roster bench fillers...


    It's discouraging really.. because there are at LEAST a handful of NBA players I can think of off the top of my head, whom are very talented and could be important pieces on a team.... but whom will never get a fair shake , and thus we never know what might have been with these players , due to their own coaches not believing in them nor giving them a chance...


    IT makes me mad, because it seems that if a player isn't drafted in the top 6 to 8 in their draft class, they aren't ever thrust into a situation of sinking or swimming in regards to becoming a franchise cornerstone for their team..

    You have guys like the Lebrons ,Tyrekes, Westbrooks, Loves, Jennings and so on and so forth whom even as rookies, are thrown in and baptized by fire to sink or swim with 25+ mpg all year consistantly.. and a very good percentage of them become very good players... Now granted of course they were excellent players to begin with..

    BUT what if you had players like Love, Westbrook , Gay , Jennings, Mayo , and so on.. getting the Josh McRoberts treatment?

    Some of those players like that we would never know how great they could be .. due to the situation they were brought into...

    I dunno, maybe I am just rambling.. but it is just discouraging sometimes, when you see flashes of what "could be" in certain players in the NBA, but will probably never get to see them accomplish that due to politics and pecking order and etc....




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    Last edited by Kemo; 02-23-2010 at 04:45 AM.
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    Plumlee reminds me of a young Dale Davis. Good rebounding and he contests shots well on defense and his offensive game is very raw just like DD's was coming out of college.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    Quote Originally Posted by WetBob View Post
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    My best guess: nail, meet head.
    I'm one of those IU bred Duke haters and got caught up in all the Indiana-All Star rancor directed towards him. To that end, I relished in the shadenfreude when he dropped in the draft.

    That stated, I'm as miffed as Peck/Seth why this guy can't get a regular spot in the rotation.

    And for the hyperbolists, I mean 'rotational' minutes, not 'Troy Murphy' minutes, because goodness know Troy's NBA skills warrant his burn [/green].
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    Needed to be said and thank you for saying it so well.
    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nce-stephenson
    "But, first, let us now praise famous moments, because something happened Tuesday night in Indianapolis that you can watch a lifetimeís worth of professional basketball and never see again. There was a brief, and very decisive, and altogether unprecedented, outburst of genuine officiating, and it was directed at the best player in the world, and that, my dear young person, simply is not done."

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    I'll debate it.

    Wow, maybe I watched a different game last night. I think McBob played okay, decent.

    Absolutely, play him in this lost season, especially play him at a position he is more of - than D Jones and Dunleavy.

    A no look pass in garbage time.... is just that, though.

    Although, he did play some decent defense, I thought and again he is actually a PF, so that helps.

    Otherwise, before I say McBob is an NBA caliber contributor on a good team, he needs to:

    -Have a consistent jumper, at least one that looks consistent and I think will go in when he shoots it. Solo actually does have this.

    -Have some sort of back to the basket move in the low post, he'll dribble it from the high post to the low post, pick up the ball and it's a one man trap.

    -Rebound better. I'm not saying Murphy level defensive rebounding, just box out and get the ball. I don't see this very often

    -Defensive consistency-I actually see this as his biggest area that he's improving on. He seems to be a better defender of his position, one on one.

    My point is this, flip the coin, ya maybe you don't see a clear reason to not play him, but I don't see a clear defineable skill that he consistently shows as a reason to play him. (disclaimer - lost season/McBobs age is enough of a reason to play him)

    Part of pulling the other way on him so hard, may have to do with the other group pulling so hard the other way.

    Just to reiterate. I am with the Mcbobophiles in that he should be playing minutes these final 26 games. I am not with the Mcbobophiles that he has exhibited a skill set that shows he clearly needs to be on the floor. He doesn't do anything that wrong, but he doesn't do anything that right either, imho.
    Last edited by Speed; 02-23-2010 at 08:19 AM.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    In my defense I have said all season long that Josh's best skill is his passing. he's a good passer - I'll grant you that. Honestly, I have said all I should say on Josh. We'll see if he is in the NBA in two years from now and if he is, I'll say I was wrong about him being out of the league in two years.

    If he is a contributor (in a team's regular rotation) then I'll really say I was completely wrong about Josh. Won't be the first time I was wrong, won't be the last. I'm a big boy I can take it.

    Overall though I'm tired of the topic - at best he's a 10th man on this team, and why we discuss him like we do is beyond me. For the record it isn't like I start threads about McRoberts - or bring his name up, I always respond to someone else.

    Solo has played rather well lately - there are times when I really see something there, at times his defense is really really good, and then at other times he seems lost especially on offense. I wonder if he had been in the regular rotation all season long getting 10-12 minutes every night if he could have become consistant or if he would have been exposed. Not sure.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 02-23-2010 at 09:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    Quote Originally Posted by WetBob View Post
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    Judicata, these 3 quotes came from a thread from last week. If you do a quick search, I'm sure there are a couple years worth of stuff very similar to this.
    No, I don't believe I started posting about Josh until this year when I started reading what I thought were some posts that seemed to me to be claiming that he was better than he actually was.

    Generally I don't spend too much time discussing the 12th -15th man on a roster
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 02-23-2010 at 09:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    In Mcbob's defense he has made more than a handful of no look passes during the season, several of them game when we has playing meaningful minutes, during Murphy's injuries.

    But if you all want to see Josh play, your best recourse is to call the Jim Obrien Show this Friday.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    I like McRoberts. I don't him expect to play HUGE minutes, but I would like to see him give Murphy a rest while keeping Granger and Dunleavy at the SF and D. Jones at the SG. McRoberts is just a solid player. He doesn't do anything spectacular, but I don't pull my hair out everytime he's on the floor either. I'll give him one thing. He's probably one of our better dunkers on the team. I swear he gets one to two dunks anytime he gets PT.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Solo has played rather well lately - there are times when I really see something there, at times his defense is really really good, and then at other times he seems lost especially on offense. I wonder if he had been in the regular rotation all season long getting 10-12 minutes every night if he could have become consistant or if he would have been exposed. Not sure.


    Why no Solo love?? Solo is IMO better than McRoberts and doesn't get as much time as he should either but he just doen't get the same love as McRoberts on this board.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    For all that Josh looked pretty good last night, he looked kind of meh in his (admittedly short) minutes in the New Orleans game.

    However, I agree with the main premise, which is that he should get some of Murphy's minutes. Murph simply isn't giving us enough for anyone to justify the amount of time he is on the floor.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    I think Josh is younger and Solo's progression has been really slow as a player. Josh is more of an unknown, really. I will say this, Solo has a nice 17 foot shot and has a defined NBA skill as a shotblocker. Again, he's inconsistent though, and you don't see him as getting much better, very quickly. Plus, I think Solo is just a poor rebounder for his position.

    Other part is, we've heard about Josh in this area since his Sophomore/Junior year. He was rated the best player in his class as a senior, went to a very top program, so the awareness of fans has always been there for him. Solo, I think started with a Juco team and then at South Florida with a late move up the charts as a potential NBA player. I just don't know that the expectations have ever been the same for the two and still aren't.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Murph simply isn't giving us enough for anyone to justify the amount of time he is on the floor.

    Nor for the 11 mil he's being paid!

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    I'm not a pro McBob person, nor am I anti McBob. I do feel he should be given enough minutes to see what he's got. I had my ill feelings about him when the Pacers got him in the Portland trade. I referred to him as McDud. I'd like to see McBob develop into a UB's Foster with a jumpshot, but unless he can get the PT who really knows what he is. I know some feel the coach knows best from practice, but I'll say this "it wouldn't be the 1st NBA player to be held back by a coach for whatever reason." I'm not saying this is a fact, but it seems that the FO, maybe Morway, has made comments about their positive feeling about Josh that don't seem to be the same held by Jimmy. And the FO do attend practices!
    Last edited by Justin Tyme; 02-23-2010 at 10:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    I think a great many people on this board overvalue our younger guys, and undervalue some of our veterans. I know McBob does some flashy highlight reel things when he comes in, and it's fun to watch, and it makes you want to see more of it, but he isn't any better than a 10th man on a decent team.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I know McBob does some flashy highlight reel things when he comes in, and it's fun to watch, and it makes you want to see more of it, but he isn't any better than a 10th man on a decent team.
    That's probably fair. 10th man on a decent team should equate to what, exactly, on our team? 7th? 5th?
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    Mc Roberts is the youngerst player on the roster. He is maturing before our eyes. He now shaves reguarly and has a respectable haircut. I like some things he does ie great passer, can run the court/push the ball, loves to dunk, and shows emotion on the bench.


    Why not play him this season? What is the worst that can happen?

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    Thank You Peck.....thats what I have been trying to tell people!!!!
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Mavs loss....

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    That's probably fair. 10th man on a decent team should equate to what, exactly, on our team? 7th? 5th?
    Yes, the cupboard is bare of options.

    McBob gets love on this board because he and Solo are the only bigs on the team with NBA calibre length and athleticism. ...and these days, NBA calibre length and/or athleticism in your bigs are prerequisites to competing in today's NBA.

    Prerequisites to Competing.

    What we have is an intuitive recognition that wheeling Troy Murphy out on the court for 40 minutes a game is a recipe for failure. It's a dead letter.

    Anyway, both sides to this debate are right in a way. McBob really isn't that good...and playing Troy Murphy is a futile exercise.

    Actually, playing a combination of Troy, Dun and Hibbert at the same time is, by definition, futile. A waste of two hours if you are a Pacer fan...and the record backs it up.

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