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Thread: Bird needs to accept responsibility

  1. #1
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    Default Bird needs to accept responsibility

    He says at his midseason review that the Pacers are four years into a six year rebuilding project. Is it time for Larry to admit he doesn't know what he's doing?

    Too much to post here at -

    http://indysportsonline.com/2010/02/...s-performance/

  2. #2
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    I disagree! I'll leave it at that.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Or, maybe it is time for us all to admit that we don't know what he is doing.

    Bird and the rest of TPTB don't owe us full disclosure. It hurts for fans (especially season ticket holders) to admit this, but it is true. TPTB have no obligation ever, and seldom have any motivation, to tell Mike Wells or Bruno or us directly what they are really thinking and doing.

    We can fault them when what they do doesn't please us, but most of our criticism of their statements is bogus.

    Look. The CIA lies to the president. Politicians lie to voters. CEOs lie to stockholders. Bosses lie to employees. Parents lie to their children.

    It just isn't reasonable to expect Bird to tell us everything he plans to do. And it isn't even reasonable to expect him to keep on a multi-year timetable when circumstances beyond his control keep changing.


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    Last edited by Putnam; 02-13-2010 at 11:53 AM.
    And I won't be here to see the day
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    But they never had much use for me
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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    I buy the fact we are 4 years into a 6 year rebuild. Could they have shortened it? IDK. But I do expect to see this team in the playoffs in 2 or 3 years.

    If we pick up some talent in the next two drafts and see significant improvement from just a couple of our young guys over the next two years, we will be right back in the playoffs. IMO, both of those things are likely. But more important is that several overpaid players will be off the payroll...and we will have some money to bring in an additional piece or two. Not a 2 or 3 million dollar backup, but a 6 or 8 million dollar legit starter.

  6. #5

    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Bird just said it the other day, "the losses are on me".

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4905746
    Last edited by dlewyus; 02-13-2010 at 12:09 PM.

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  8. #6

    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by moops View Post
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    He says at his midseason review that the Pacers are four years into a six year rebuilding project. Is it time for Larry to admit he doesn't know what he's doing?

    Too much to post here at -

    http://indysportsonline.com/2010/02/...s-performance/
    When you inherit a turd its hard to shine it into a nugget of gold.

    I look at Larry from 2008 and on so I can't put all the blame on him. Certianly the drafting of Jordan Hill supported my view that Donnie had lost some his magic but I can't be certain of that.

    The fact is I doubt anyone could have done a better job given the same hand that was dealt. The coaching is the only sticking point for me but whenever you asked someone who would they replace him with everybody just shuts up or mentions some retread. Its always easier said then done, IMO.

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    Or, maybe it is time for us all to admit that we don't know what he is doing.

    Bird and the rest of TPTB don't owe us full disclosure. It hurts for fans (especially season ticket holders) to admit this, but it is true. TPTB have no obligation ever, and seldom have any motivation, to tell Mike Wells or Bruno or us directly what they are really thinking and doing.
    So, he SAID he hoped to make the playoffs the last couple of years, but he was lying. He was really trying to assemble a really crappy team that plays bad basketball and ignores the fundamentals.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    We've got most of the pieces of a fine team in place. Whether they will jell together IF they ever all get healthy at the same time remains to be seen.
    I'm pleased with the progress I"m seeing in terms of pieces of the puzzle. Understanding that the losses are going to be tough to take is part of it.
    Hibbert - 5
    Hansbrough - 4
    Granger - 3
    Rush - 2
    AJ - 1
    We've never had that lineup together. Seems like he's done a decent job through the draft to me. Do we need another piece or two? For sure. That's why it's a rebuilding.

  12. #9

    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    So, he SAID he hoped to make the playoffs the last couple of years, but he was lying.
    Aw. I said Bird is not obligated to always tell us everything he knows or plans to do. It doesn't follow from that that anything he says is a lie. I'm sure most of what he says is honest and straightforward. I don't mean to accuse him of lying.

    My point is just that we ought to judge the Pacers by the product on the floor.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    Aw. I said Bird is not obligated to always tell us everything he knows or plans to do. It doesn't follow from that that anything he says is a lie. I'm sure most of what he says is honest and straightforward. I don't mean to accuse him of lying.

    My point is just that we ought to judge the Pacers by the product on the floor.
    whenever I read Putnam's words I hear them being spoken in Smither's voice..............
    I'm not perfect and neither are you.

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    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    Aw. I said Bird is not obligated to always tell us everything he knows or plans to do. It doesn't follow from that that anything he says is a lie. I'm sure most of what he says is honest and straightforward. I don't mean to accuse him of lying.

    My point is just that we ought to judge the Pacers by the product on the floor.
    Okay, fair enough.

    The product on the floor is, well . . . challenged.
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    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    My point is just that we ought to judge the Pacers by the product on the floor.

    That's exactly what's happening! This team is 18-34 not 34-18. It's being judged by it's accomplishments on the floor, and those responsible for this 18-34 record are being judged for the product they have assembled.

    How dare Bird ask for the fan's patience when they have been patient for years with what's happened since the brawl. How can Bird with a straight face make a statement like that. The Pacers fans after being patient for years deserve to see more results and not some overpaid FO person in the puzzle place asking for more patience after the Pacers FO made poor management decisions. They are being judged by their actions or lack of action. The fans can't control their actions, or their inept decisions, but Bird can come and ask for more patience from the fans when he starts feeling the heat of accountability. At some point Mr. Bird, patience has to be earned not just given freely for the asking when the heat is being felt. You want patience then give us something that makes us feel patient, otherwise don't ask for the fans patience. The fans didn't create a 18-34 record. You did! Remember it's on YOU! So if the heat in the kitchen is too hot, get out.

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  17. #13

    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    My point is just that we ought to judge the Pacers by the product on the floor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    That's exactly what's happening! This team is 18-34 not 34-18. It's being judged by it's accomplishments on the floor
    Well, the OP isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by the OP
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    Is it time for Larry to admit he doesn't know what he's doing?
    The OP delves into more than what is evident on the floor. It judges Bird on his intentions and his unfillfilled plans. In other words, it judges him on those things that we cannot know enough about to judge fairly.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Can we dispell the myth that a team can really rebuild in only three years.

    Of course they're stringing us along with the hope that they can be competitive soon.

    If Bird comes out and says, "this is gonna take a while, we might not advance to the second round of the playoffs until 2013-14 or later", how many people are going to stick around for the 2009-10 season?

    Bird has to do two things at once, and they aren't automatically in sync. He's got to make the right decisions to build the future team. And he's got to sell the current team to the customers.

    You've got to be able to read between the marketing lines if you want to understand the actual moves/ strategy.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  20. #15

    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ
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    You've got to be able to read between the marketing lines if you want to understand the actual moves/ strategy.
    This is right. What Bird or any of TPTB actually say doesn't bear much scrutiny. It is naive to expect it to.

    I would go a step further than J, though, and say most of us shouldn't even bother trying to "understand the actual moves/strategy."
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    This is right. What Bird or any of TPTB actually say doesn't bear much scrutiny. It is naive to expect it to.

    I would go a step further than J, though, and say most of us shouldn't even bother trying to "understand the actual moves/strategy."
    That reads a little bit too much like "blind faith" to me.

    "Blind Faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed."
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  23. #17

    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    That reads a little bit too much like "blind faith" to me.

    "Blind Faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed."

    That's so. I'm not trying to advocate the faith, but I do think we should admit the blindness.


    Few of us have access to any facts. We know nothing of what is said in the locker room or front office, and we don't know whether what Mike Wells writes is true. I have a lot of confidence in what Mark Boyle says, but I also know he doesn't say all he knows.

    Right now, a lot of people are angry that the Pacers are playing so badly, and even angrier because Bird and O'Brien seem not to be making sense or keeping their promises.

    I'm saying it makes sense to be angry about the losing. But it doesn't really make sense to get upset about the dissembling and prevarication.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    How blind are we?

    We see the assembled team, the coaching staff, the finished product.

    I know we only see 2% of total amount of activity involved with putting the team together, but we do see the "finished" product (meaning, the current team put on the court night after night.)
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  26. #19
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Assuming Bird is here through the next two and a half years and if things aren;t any better - then yes Bird needs to accept responsibility (whatever difference that makes, I don't know).

    But we all know and knew that nothing was going to really change until after the summer of 2011

    is anyone surprised by that - I hope not - you shouldn't be

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    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Actually U.B. I am guilty of thinking that this team would play differantly this season and that there would be a much greater emphasis placed on defense and that we would go to a more stable offensive structure. I guess I thought with the players they brought in that this would be the way we go.

    I never believed we would be contenders or anything and wasn't even sure about the playoffs but I did suspect about 36-38 wins. As it is we are going to be lucky to get to 30 wins.


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    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I never believed we would be contenders or anything and wasn't even sure about the playoffs but I did suspect about 36-38 wins.
    A third consecutive season of 36-38 wins would really just be chasing your tail and banging your head on the wall (4th if you counted the 35 win season previous to those). It's exactly where you don't want to be in this league.

  30. #22
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    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Actually U.B. I am guilty of thinking that this team would play differantly this season and that there would be a much greater emphasis placed on defense and that we would go to a more stable offensive structure. I guess I thought with the players they brought in that this would be the way we go.

    I never believed we would be contenders or anything and wasn't even sure about the playoffs but I did suspect about 36-38 wins. As it is we are going to be lucky to get to 30 wins.



    Yes I understand that, but winning 36-38 games is essentually the same as the past two seasons. There was no way there was going to be any real change unless they got lucky and won the lottery or until after the summer of 2011. (I'm not talking about style of play, or anything like that, I'm talking win/loss botton line)

  31. #23

    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Yes I understand that, but winning 36-38 games is essentually the same as the past two seasons. There was no way there was going to be any real change unless they got lucky and won the lottery or until after the summer of 2011. (I'm not talking about style of play, or anything like that, I'm talking win/loss botton line)

    I believe I predicted 38 wins this season & didn't expect to make the playoffs, BUT I didn't expect the wheels to fall off the wagon either when Bird talked about playing better "D" when picking up players who were supposedly capable of playing "D". Just remember, he said "the losses are on him", so he's responsible. Let him ACCEPT the responsibility of the failure, b/c that is exactly what this season has been.... a failure. He's the leader of this failure, and he needs to accept the "responsibility" of the failure... win/loss bottom line.

  32. #24

    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    How blind are we?

    We see the assembled team, the coaching staff, the finished product.

    I know we only see 2% of total amount of activity involved with putting the team together, but we do see the "finished" product (meaning, the current team put on the court night after night.)
    I'm just trying to make a small point. As you say, we see the result clearly. But we see nothing behind the scenes and what we hear is often incorrect. Sometimes it is calculated to misinform.


    So, fuss about the result all you want. It's obviously bad. I'm not preaching contentment.

    And, if I can speak for him, neither is kegboy.



    .
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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    Default Re: Bird needs to accept responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    I believe I predicted 38 wins this season & didn't expect to make the playoffs, BUT I didn't expect the wheels to fall off the wagon either when Bird talked about playing better "D" when picking up players who were supposedly capable of playing "D". Just remember, he said "the losses are on him", so he's responsible. Let him ACCEPT the responsibility of the failure, b/c that is exactly what this season has been.... a failure. He's the leader of this failure, and he needs to accept the "responsibility" of the failure... win/loss bottom line.
    We are talking about different things. I'm saying that there wasn't going to be any subtantial change until the summer of 2011 and by substantial I don't mean the type of things you and Peck are talking aboput. I'm talking about becoming a 50-55 win team.

    So if you want to blame Bird for this season, fine, i don't really care, but it was wrong for anyone to think this season was going to be substantially any better than the past two. And almost all of us knew this based on the predictions all of us made, so I don't know why the barometer by which we grade Bird has changed from the start of the season.

    I would have to go back and re-read old threads to see if anyone said Bird needs to go or accept responsibility if the team wins 27 games
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 02-15-2010 at 02:34 PM.

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