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Thread: Second Unit

  1. #1

    Default Second Unit

    There is something that has been bugging me for a while now that Al Harrington has been traded. If you look at our lineup (assuming Reggie as a starter), you have:

    PG: Tinsley/AJ
    SG: Miller/Jackson/FJones
    SF: Artest/Bender
    PF: O'Neal/Croshere
    C: Foster/Harrison (or Pollard)

    I think the reason why Jackson has to come off the bench is because a lineup with Miller, Bender and Croshere is scary soft. We also have virtually no low post presence on this team when JO is out of the lineup. I know the second team as a whole will play very few, if any, minutes together, but I don't like how our bench is lining up. Defensively, it is weak and unless Harrison is a better than I think, I don't see a top rebounder out of the bunch.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Second Unit

    It's still a decent bench. The names are all recognizable, as opposed to some team's benches. Having Reggie Miller coming off the bench (if he were) isn't a bad thing. Pollard can play better than he has; Harrison will be out there proving himself, and I personall believe Bender will improve as much this year as he did last year. Jackson and Jones at SG is a tough backup combo, and AJ is a serviceable bench.

    We get good defense from the guard positions and even Pollard is known more for his defense than offense. Bender is a tough person to get by simply because of his length. I think you're under-rating that 2nd team.
    [edit=313=1089988273][/edit]
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  3. #3
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Second Unit

    AJ, Fred and Jackson are all to varying degrees "good defenders". Bender is getting better and his shotblocking makes him a valuable defender.

    I would think Carlisle will have either J.O or Ron on the floor at all times. he pretty much did that last season. If it was a close game and as long as J.O was not in foul trouble rarely did the Pacers have a group on the floor that did not include either J.O or Ron.

    That is not to say that there won't be times that the Pacers miss Al

  4. #4

    Default Re: Second Unit

    I think the players are good players in the second unit, but I guess I am afraid of what would happen if JO goes down for any stretch of playing time. At least last year you could plug Al in and we were respectible, but what would we do now?

    We had been an inside-out team and we probably will still be, but now we really only have O'Neal and Artest as players who can be post scorers.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Second Unit

    I honestly really really like our second unit. Our main offense has to be inside out, but that doesn't mean the bench has to be the same way. In fact, it may be good that is isn't, since it can throw a little variety at teh opponent. AJ is a decent outside shooter and will run the offense, Jones is getting much better at his outside shot and can penetrate well, same for Jackson who shoots better. If Bender plays properly this year, he can give us a lift as a terrific shooter and a slasher. Croshere gives us a big body, as does Harrison. And we don't know Harrison's qualities just yet. He may give us the inside scoring we need. I feel realyl good about this lineup.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Second Unit

    I don't care about the second unit. Come playoff time; they shouldn't play very much anyway.

    The second unit is only useful in that they help the core players - the starters and maybe the sixth man - get through the regular season.

    Depth doesn't win championships.

    If we traded Foster and three bench guys (JB/ Fred/ Pollard) to upgrade at Center, I wouldn't blink. We'd still be able to fill out the rotation with role players like James Jones, Croshere, Harrison and Wright.

    I'd rather have a tremendously balanced starting five + sixthman that

    1) opponents can't risk double-teaming; and
    2) can play team defense and rebound effectively

    and be stuck with two rooks and a guy who's only scored two points in his career on the bench than have a weak link in the starting unit but a whole bunch of "good" bench players.
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  7. #7
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Second Unit

    Quote Originally Posted by tseramid
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    I guess I am afraid of what would happen if JO goes down for any stretch of playing time. At least last year you could plug Al in and we were respectible, but what would we do now?

    That is a problem. Losing J.O. even with AL here would be very difficult to deal with but without Al it would be a disaster. But that is not unlike what would happen to the T-Wolves, the Spurs or the Heat should KG, TD or Shaq go down.

    We would really find out if Bender could produce

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Second Unit

    I don't care about the second unit, for Jay's reasons and also because I'm against the idea in general.

    It's cool to run 10 guys in HS basketball, but I don't want a second unit that's a unit, I want one where each guy can meld into the first unit at different parts of the game.
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Second Unit

    It is amazing, that last year when Tins would drive toward the basket, and then feed off to Jeff or Jo, it was nearly sure 2 points, either man. People seem to forget that Jeff is one of the best rebounders in the NBA. and when the ball is feed to him under the basket, how good he can be.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Second Unit

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Quote Originally Posted by tseramid
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    I guess I am afraid of what would happen if JO goes down for any stretch of playing time. At least last year you could plug Al in and we were respectible, but what would we do now?



    That is a problem. Losing J.O. even with AL here would be very difficult to deal with but without Al it would be a disaster. But that is not unlike what would happen to the T-Wolves, the Spurs or the Heat should KG, TD or Shaq go down.

    We would really find out if Bender could produce

    I think injuries can hurt a team short term (sometimes... think of the Patrick Ewing/Webber effect) , but they can only help a team in the long run... often players step up who don't ordinarily get a chance to play and find their role in the league. For example if JO were to get injured, Bender,
    Croshere and Harrison would get more time and chances are would fill in just fine...

    We would still have 1 Allstar to lead us as well and many other capable veterans.

    If JO went down in the playoffs, that would be a different story and would suck...
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Second Unit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section222
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    I don't care about the second unit. Come playoff time; they shouldn't play very much anyway.

    The second unit is only useful in that they help the core players - the starters and maybe the sixth man - get through the regular season.

    Depth doesn't win championships.

    If we traded Foster and three bench guys (JB/ Fred/ Pollard) to upgrade at Center, I wouldn't blink. We'd still be able to fill out the rotation with role players like James Jones, Croshere, Harrison and Wright.

    I'd rather have a tremendously balanced starting five + sixthman that

    1) opponents can't risk double-teaming; and
    2) can play team defense and rebound effectively

    and be stuck with two rooks and a guy who's only scored two points in his career on the bench than have a weak link in the starting unit but a whole bunch of "good" bench players.

    Like most NBA fans you GREATLY underestimate the importance of the 2nd team.
    THEY carried us through MANY games when the starters were tired, playing poorly, in foul trouble, etc.
    We had HOME COURT ADVANTAGE through the playoffs, in great part due to our 2nd team outplaying the other teams 2nd team ALL SEASON LONG. Think home court advantage might be worth something in the playoffs???

  12. #12

    Default Re: Second Unit

    In the playoffs they are essentially worthless. Only 1 or 2 people actually contribute meaningful minutes.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Second Unit

    AJ, Al, Jones, Bender, and Croshere all played significant minutes in the playoffs for us.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Second Unit

    Quote Originally Posted by Freddies
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section222
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    I don't care about the second unit. Come playoff time; they shouldn't play very much anyway.

    The second unit is only useful in that they help the core players - the starters and maybe the sixth man - get through the regular season.

    Depth doesn't win championships.

    If we traded Foster and three bench guys (JB/ Fred/ Pollard) to upgrade at Center, I wouldn't blink. We'd still be able to fill out the rotation with role players like James Jones, Croshere, Harrison and Wright.

    I'd rather have a tremendously balanced starting five + sixthman that

    1) opponents can't risk double-teaming; and
    2) can play team defense and rebound effectively

    and be stuck with two rooks and a guy who's only scored two points in his career on the bench than have a weak link in the starting unit but a whole bunch of "good" bench players.

    Like most NBA fans you GREATLY underestimate the importance of the 2nd team.
    THEY carried us through MANY games when the starters were tired, playing poorly, in foul trouble, etc.
    We had HOME COURT ADVANTAGE through the playoffs, in great part due to our 2nd team outplaying the other teams 2nd team ALL SEASON LONG. Think home court advantage might be worth something in the playoffs???
    I think we just said the same thing... the second unit is only meaningful during the regular season, which means nothing to me.

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  15. #15

    Default Re: Second Unit

    I concede that the 2nd unit shows up less in the playoffs, but you cannot discount the value that the bench brings in keeping the starters fresh during the regular season and what they can bring even in more limited minutes in the playoffs. In addition, they take on a whole new level of importance if there are any injuries. For instance, everyone knows that an injury to JO could stop us dead in our tracks, but we become far more vulnerable if a guy like Tinsley is rendered ineffective due to injuries (see last year's playoffs) and our team is stopped dead in their tracks.

    Maybe that brings up the question, who on this team are basically irreplacable on this roster? In other words, if something happens to them, do we really have the ability to replace them and still fire on all cylinders?

    [edit=89=1090037257][/edit]

  16. #16
    Johnny
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    Default Re: Second Unit

    I agree with UncleBuck. Carlisle used a good mix of starters and second tier guys practically all year. Artest played with the second unit quite a bit, and it was very effective. It will be interesting to see what he throws together this season. Once again, we have quite a few players that can play one, two, or three positions, which will create advantages.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Second Unit

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness
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    In the playoffs they are essentially worthless. Only 1 or 2 people actually contribute meaningful minutes.
    That's absolutely insane.

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    Default Re: Second Unit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddies
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    I don't care about the second unit. Come playoff time; they shouldn't play very much anyway.

    The second unit is only useful in that they help the core players - the starters and maybe the sixth man - get through the regular season.

    Depth doesn't win championships.

    If we traded Foster and three bench guys (JB/ Fred/ Pollard) to upgrade at Center, I wouldn't blink. We'd still be able to fill out the rotation with role players like James Jones, Croshere, Harrison and Wright.

    I'd rather have a tremendously balanced starting five + sixthman that

    1) opponents can't risk double-teaming; and
    2) can play team defense and rebound effectively

    and be stuck with two rooks and a guy who's only scored two points in his career on the bench than have a weak link in the starting unit but a whole bunch of "good" bench players.

    Like most NBA fans you GREATLY underestimate the importance of the 2nd team.
    THEY carried us through MANY games when the starters were tired, playing poorly, in foul trouble, etc.
    We had HOME COURT ADVANTAGE through the playoffs, in great part due to our 2nd team outplaying the other teams 2nd team ALL SEASON LONG. Think home court advantage might be worth something in the playoffs???
    I think we just said the same thing... the second unit is only meaningful during the regular season, which means nothing to me.

    Why the rolling eyes?

    Because I don't believe that for a second. You might be right that is the "normal" way for it to go. Well, that's because nobody HAS a really good second team, ( (we may have the best in the league).
    EVERYBODY gets tired. THey just play the best players EVEN THOUGH THEY"RE TIRED because they don't have anyone to play without a big dropoff.
    We SHOULD have had that, but TIns injury meant we played more pg sub minutes than normal. Al played like **** and Freddie was injured and couldn't play. OR THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN A BIG PLUS FOR US.
    And it would have been a HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE advantage for us.
    A well rested but good scrub is better than a star that's whipped.
    It just doesn't happen in the NBA because the coaches are too afraid to risk it.
    Al scores 18 pts against Detroit a couple of times and your theory is right out the window......

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    Default Re: Second Unit

    Quote Originally Posted by Freddies
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness
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    In the playoffs they are essentially worthless. Only 1 or 2 people actually contribute meaningful minutes.
    That's absolutely insane.
    You've watched the playoffs before, haven't you?

    There are a gazillion examples of where the team with more talent and less depth has advanced, but only a couple examples of when a team with more "depth" but less talent has won a series.

    Isn't last season's Celtics series enough proof? Or do you want to look at the Pacers v. Bulls in 1998. It did not matter that we could play any two of Reggie, Jalen, Mullin, McKey or Hoiberg against the Bulls, because Pippen and Jordan were each going to play 46+ minutes.
    [edit=72=1090039901][/edit]
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Second Unit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddies
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness
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    In the playoffs they are essentially worthless. Only 1 or 2 people actually contribute meaningful minutes.
    That's absolutely insane.
    You've watched the playoffs before, haven't you?

    There are a gazillion examples of where the team with more talent and less depth has advanced, but only a couple examples of when a team with more "depth" but less talent has won a series.

    Isn't last season's Celtics series enough proof? Or do you want to look at the Pacers v. Bulls in 1998. It did not matter that we could play any two of Reggie, Jalen, Mullin, McKey or Hoiberg against the Bulls, because Pippen and Jordan were each going to play 46+ minutes.
    Now you're comparing unequal teams. The original presumption was that no matter how good your bench is, you only play the starters come playoff time.
    Two teams with equal quality starters, one with a better bench. Who wins?
    C'mon this isn't rocket science.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Second Unit

    Quote Originally Posted by Freddies
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    Now you're comparing unequal teams. The original presumption was that no matter how good your bench is, you only play the starters come playoff time.
    Two teams with equal quality starters, one with a better bench. Who wins?
    C'mon this isn't rocket science.
    It's not that easy. There's no rule that requires substitutions at any certain time or requires set minutes. The team with the better bench may have it negated by the play of the starters and coaching.

    A bench with mostly scrubs and ONE solid 6th man may be better than a deeper bench when comparing man to man.

    Depth is overrated.

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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Second Unit

    I'm with the "depth is overrated" crowd.

    I think you need more than six, though. Eight seems ideal to me. That's why a combo guard is important.

    You need a three-man rotation up front, a three-guard rotation, and an extra swingman or tweener forward. That's a solid 8-man rotation. Most teams shoot for an 8.5-man rotation, which would add a swingman or tweener (whichever is lacking) for that last half spot.
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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Second Unit

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddies
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    Now you're comparing unequal teams. The original presumption was that no matter how good your bench is, you only play the starters come playoff time.
    Two teams with equal quality starters, one with a better bench. Who wins?
    C'mon this isn't rocket science.
    It's not that easy. There's no rule that requires substitutions at any certain time or requires set minutes. The team with the better bench may have it negated by the play of the starters and coaching.

    A bench with mostly scrubs and ONE solid 6th man may be better than a deeper bench when comparing man to man.

    Depth is overrated.

    -Bball

    No, it's just under utilized.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Second Unit

    Then tell me how many "deep" teams have won the title lately, and actually used their depth?
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Second Unit

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness
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    Then tell me how many "deep" teams have won the title lately, and actually used their depth?
    You tell me how many quality teams have HAD good depth, and not utilized it.
    Pistons seemed to do just fine.

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