View Poll Results: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?(championship)

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Thread: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

  1. #51
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I think this is one of the better rosters in the past 20 years
    LOL. Are you serious? Are you freaking serious?

    I don't even know how to respond to that. The Pacers have had teams that have made the Conference Finals several times in the past 20 years.

    This roster features Troy Murphy as the 2nd best player, a guy who has never made the playoffs after 9 seasons in the league. You call that one of the best roster of the past 20 seasons?

    Bird is looking to completely overhaul this so called best roster of the past 20 years. Wake up dude.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    That includes the '04 Pistons which had a far superior Chauncey Billups and likely 1 or 2 other players who were better as well.
    It also featured 3 starters drafted in the lottery, two of whom were top 5 picks.

  3. #53
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    I said No to this question. While I think that Danny is a good player, i just don't think that he makes others better. Can he score? Yea he can, he can shoot the three and he's a tough player, but he does not handle the ball well enough or take it to the basket like I think a leader should. To me Danny is an above average player, but he's not in the same league as the Lebron's, Melo's, Kobe's, or other top flight shooting guards in the league. To me Danny is more of an Andre Igoudala type of player, who can be counted on to get you 20 pt.'s a game, and is a great piece to a good team, just not a leader or guy that is the man on a good team.

    I think that he needs to work on his ball handling and passing in order to take the next step to stardom. Some players just don't have that quality, though. I would really like for him to pattern his game a bit after Kevin Durant or Brandon Roy. Those guys have a similar skill set, but they drive and dish much more than Granger. Danny seems to be a bit one dimensional at this point in his career, and while he is a great player, I just don't think that he will ever be the leader on a championship type of team.

    Go Pacers!

  4. #54
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I think this is one of the better rosters in the past 20 years
    QUOTE]

  5. #55
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    LOL. Are you serious? Are you freaking serious?

    I don't even know how to respond to that. The Pacers have had teams that have made the Conference Finals several times in the past 20 years.

    This roster features Troy Murphy as the 2nd best player, a guy who has never made the playoffs after 9 seasons in the league. You call that one of the best roster of the past 20 seasons?

    Bird is looking to completely overhaul this so called best roster of the past 20 years. Wake up dude.
    I don't recall mentioning Murphy's name, and I have been consistent in saying "The talent is there...the coach is not". Also, I said "one of the BETTER" rosters in 20 years. Read...

  6. #56
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    That includes the '04 Pistons which had a far superior Chauncey Billups and likely 1 or 2 other players who were better as well.
    I don't agree with that at all. Nothing else to say, really; I just didn't want my silence to be confused with agreement while this statement is out there.

  7. #57
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    I don't recall mentioning Murphy's name, and I have been consistent in saying "The talent is there...the coach is not". Also, I said "one of the BETTER" rosters in 20 years. Read...
    Whether you say one of the better, or one of the best, it's just not true.

    Not when 89-90 through 09-10 covers all those playoff teams, semifinals teams, ECF teams, and a Finals team.

    The only roster I would immediately think was worse was the 07-08 team (w/ Tinsley and JO not playing, Flip Murray/Diener at the point, etc.).

  8. #58
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    I don't recall mentioning Murphy's name, and I have been consistent in saying "The talent is there...the coach is not". Also, I said "one of the BETTER" rosters in 20 years. Read...
    You didn't mention Murphy, and that's your mistake, not mine. Not mentioning the 2nd best player on the roster is a huge omission when discussing how good a team is. I don't even like Troy Murphy as a player that much, but right now he is the 2nd best player on your roster. It's not even debatable.

    I'd say this is one of the top 20 Pacer rosters of the past 20 seasons. Probably ranks around #20.

  9. #59
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    You didn't mention Murphy, and that's your mistake, not mine. Not mentioning the 2nd best player on the roster is a huge omission when discussing how good a team is. I don't even like Troy Murphy as a player that much, but right now he is the 2nd best player on your roster. It's not even debatable.

    I'd say this is one of the top 20 Pacer rosters of the past 20 seasons. Probably ranks around #20.
    It's not an omission if I believe he's a secondary reason to why I think the team is underachieving. Personally, I have never been a fan of stretch-PFs, because it leaves one player trying to gather offensive rebounds. Especially in this offense where most of the players are camping around the 3PT line. This team lacks fundamental basketball knowledge and plays, and that I blame on the coach. If you believe that this is the 20th best team in Pacers history, then why are we even having this discussion? We should be lobbying for the Simons to sell the team, so we don't have to worry about a bunch of losers under a losing, stubborn coach.

  10. #60
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Whether you say one of the better, or one of the best, it's just not true.

    Not when 89-90 through 09-10 covers all those playoff teams, semifinals teams, ECF teams, and a Finals team.

    The only roster I would immediately think was worse was the 07-08 team (w/ Tinsley and JO not playing, Flip Murray/Diener at the point, etc.).
    Well, we need to get those coaches to coach this team. I'm not sold that this team is bad when everything points back to the coach making poor decisions, or is improperly handling the rotation minutes for players who should be getting PT.

    Of course, some people had Hibbert and Rush labeled as busts last year and Indiana was stupid for trading Bayless to Rush, but now...how often do you hear THOSE comments?

  11. #61
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    If you believe that this is the 20th best team in Pacers history, then why are we even having this discussion? We should be lobbying for the Simons to sell the team, so we don't have to worry about a bunch of losers under a losing, stubborn coach.
    Because most people here recognize this is a losing situation with poor talent and a coach who was probably brought in to be thrown away at the end of his contract.

    Appreciate the fact that the Pacers have been a very well run team for many years, that they achieved the rare NBA feat of pretty much rebuilding a very good team on the fly and showing a high level of consistency.

    Now they've hit the point that a whole lot of NBA teams eventually do: A point where they have to rebuild. Granger is great. A very nice building block to have around. Can he take the Pacers to the promiseland? No. They need a lot more talent. History shows that you need high lottery picks to get to the promiseland (which currently don't have). Contrary to popular belief, the 2004 Pistons are just another example of that, not an exception.

  12. #62
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    Because most people here recognize this is a losing situation with poor talent and a coach who was probably brought in to be thrown away at the end of his contract.

    Appreciate the fact that the Pacers have been a very well run team for many years, that they achieved the rare NBA feat of pretty much rebuilding a very good team on the fly and showing a high level of consistency.

    Now they've hit the point that a whole lot of NBA teams eventually do: A point where they have to rebuild. Granger is great. A very nice building block to have around. Can he take the Pacers to the promiseland? No. They need a lot more talent. History shows that you need high lottery picks to get to the promiseland (which currently don't have). Contrary to popular belief, the 2004 Pistons are just another example of that, not an exception.
    Poor talent, huh? So what percentage of this team is "poor" talent? The only thing that I'll appreiciate is when Bird holds a news conference to announce that JOB has been fired. I watched a lot of basketball in my time, and I don't remember ever being this critical of a coach as I have been about JOB.

  13. #63
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    Poor talent, huh? So what percentage of this team is "poor" talent? The only thing that I'll appreiciate is when Bird holds a news conference to announce that JOB has been fired. I watched a lot of basketball in my time, and I don't remember ever being this critical of a coach as I have been about JOB.
    About 75% of this roster won't be around when the Pacers are once again competitive. I suppose you can say the Pacers have good talent, but that would be in a league where they don't play against anyone. When compared to the teams who currently hold the 8 playoff seeds in the east, the Pacers come up short. They have less talent than those teams.

    Again, if you think Bird's plan revolves around who is coaching the team, you completely miss the point of what he's trying to do. The NBA isn't a league that revolves around who the coach and the system. It's about the players and the talent, and that's what Bird is focused on fixing.

  14. #64
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    About 75% of this roster won't be around when the Pacers are once again competitive. I suppose you can say the Pacers have good talent, but that would be in a league where they don't play against anyone. When compared to the teams who currently hold the 8 playoff seeds in the east, the Pacers come up short. They have less talent than those teams.

    Again, if you think Bird's plan revolves around who is coaching the team, you completely miss the point of what he's trying to do. The NBA isn't a league that revolves around who the coach and the system. It's about the players and the talent, and that's what Bird is focused on fixing.
    Woooooowwwww...so, a coach and his system doesn't have anything to do with a team's success? Okay.... How about we draw names out of a hat for our next coach?

  15. #65
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    Woooooowwwww...so, a coach and his system doesn't have anything to do with a team's success? Okay.... How about we draw names out of a hat for our next coach?
    I said players and talent matter more than coaching and systems in the NBA. It's a players' league where the players and talent come first. Always has been. Coaching matters too, but every single year Phil Jackson won one of his championships, he had the best players and the best rosters. That was the case for 10 out of 10 of his championship teams.

    Every team that is consistently a winning team in the NBA is a talented one. If you don't have talent, you don't win no matter who the coach is or what their system tries to implement.

    The best coach and the best system probably gets around a .500 record with this roster. Who cares? Certainly, the best coach in the league won't waste his time trying to prove that he can win 41 games with this roster (as opposed to the 36 games JOB won the previous two years).

    The best coach in the league wants to take over a team that previously lost in the finals or conference finals and turn them into a team that wins the finals. They don't care about turning talent poor teams like this Pacers' squad into .500 teams. If you want to attract that kind of coach, then first get a better roster.
    Last edited by d_c; 02-08-2010 at 04:24 PM.

  16. #66
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I don't agree with that at all. Nothing else to say, really; I just didn't want my silence to be confused with agreement while this statement is out there.
    Billups is unquestionably better than Granger. '04 Billups was far better than '09-'10 Billups. '04 Hamilton was almost assuredly better than Granger. '04 Sheed and '04 Prince were at least as good. '04 Ben Wallace is more valuable to winning even than '08-'09 Granger. And I don't expect to see '08-'09 Granger again. So, my theory that Granger would be the worst best player on a championship team in history holds true in my opinion. Because I'd give Billups that title now. And he was far better than Granger.
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    Billups is unquestionably better than Granger. '04 Billups was far better than '09-'10 Billups. '04 Hamilton was almost assuredly better than Granger. '04 Sheed and '04 Prince were at least as good. '04 Ben Wallace is more valuable to winning even than '08-'09 Granger. And I don't expect to see '08-'09 Granger again. So, my theory that Granger would be the worst best player on a championship team in history holds true in my opinion. Because I'd give Billups that title now. And he was far better than Granger.
    Well, you've declared it, so I guess it's the truth.

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  19. #68
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    I said players and talent matter more than coaching and systems in the NBA. It's a players' league where the players and talent come first. Always has been. Coaching matters too, but every single year Phil Jackson won one of his championships, he had the best players and the best rosters. That was the case for 10 out of 10 of his championship teams.

    Every team that is consistently a winning team in the NBA is a talented one. If you don't have talent, you don't win no matter who the coach is or what their system tries to implement.

    The best coach and the best system probably gets around a .500 record with this roster. Who cares? Certainly, the best coach in the league won't waste his time trying to prove that he can win 41 games with this roster (as opposed to the 36 games JOB won the previous two years).

    The best coach in the league wants to take over a team that previously lost in the finals or conference finals and turn them into a team that wins the finals. They don't care about turning talent poor teams like this Pacers' squad into .500 teams. If you want to attract that kind of coach, then first get a better roster.
    Riddle me this Batman...at what point do Indiana says it has "good enough talent" to have a "good" coach? Also, how is it that a good team can't be coached to be a great team?

  20. #69

    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I think this is one of the better rosters in the past 20 years


    Either you're young, and have no idea what this team has been like in the last 20 years, or you just have a bad memory. Something.

    We have the lowest winning percentage right now this franchise has seen since 88-89 season. Working on having the worst record in the last 20 years, but one of the better rosters? Sure. That's crazy.

    We might not even make the win total (33 wins) of the 98-99 team that only played 50 games.

    -- Steve --
    Last edited by Pacersfan46; 02-08-2010 at 09:14 PM.

  21. #70
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacersfan46 View Post
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    Either you're young, and have no idea what this team has been like in the last 20 years, or you just have a bad memory. Something.

    We have the lowest winning percentage right now this franchise has seen since 88-89 season. Working on having the worst record in the last 20 years, but one of the better rosters? Sure. That's crazy.

    We might not even make the win total (33 wins) of the 98-99 team that only played 50 games.

    -- Steve --
    Am I only one who looks BEYOND the W/L record and looks at the players? Am I only one who believes that the team is being improperly used, and we do have the right components to be better than our record indicates? I've been watching the Pacers (and basketball) for a little over 20 years, so my memory is perfectly fine. When I look at this team, I see a team that SHOULDN'T be losing as much as they do. The team that I see should be playing for the 7th/8th seed, and a competitive 1st round matchup. Of course, most people are brainwashed to think if you're losing, then you suck before analyzing WHY they're losing. As MANY threads that are created complaining about how JOB coaches and should be fired, yet I'm the crazy one when for believing that this team has enough talent to compete better than they are now.

  22. #71
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    Am I only one who looks BEYOND the W/L record and looks at the players? Am I only one who believes that the team is being improperly used, and we do have the right components to be better than our record indicates? I've been watching the Pacers (and basketball) for a little over 20 years, so my memory is perfectly fine. When I look at this team, I see a team that SHOULDN'T be losing as much as they do. The team that I see should be playing for the 7th/8th seed, and a competitive 1st round matchup. Of course, most people are brainwashed to think if you're losing, then you suck before analyzing WHY they're losing. As MANY threads that are created complaining about how JOB coaches and should be fired, yet I'm the crazy one when for believing that this team has enough talent to compete better than they are now.
    Playing for the 7th/8th seed is not one of our best teams of the past 20 years. Even so, I highly doubt this team coached by Larry Brown could do that well...

  23. #72
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sobchak View Post
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    Playing for the 7th/8th seed is not one of our best teams of the past 20 years. Even so, I highly doubt this team coached by Larry Brown could do that well...
    Well, we're not going to be playing for the 3rd - 6th seed overnight. Most championship teams slowly make their ways into the playoffs as an uphill battle. You make the playoffs and lose...make minor player adjustments. Make playoffs and lose again...make another adjustment. Eventually, you'll tweak the team into championship contention. The Boston Celtics are the only team of recent memories that jumped from a non-playoff team to winning it all.

  24. #73
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    Riddle me this Batman...at what point do Indiana says it has "good enough talent" to have a "good" coach? Also, how is it that a good team can't be coached to be a great team?
    I dunno how you want to exactly quantify it, but a team with Murphy as the 2nd best player isn't good enough talent.

    What do you define to be a good team that can be coached into a great team? You mean a coach that can make a team that normally wins 45 games (under an average coach) into a 55 win team? There aren't many coaches who can do that.

    But that doesn't even apply here because this isn't a good team. It's a bad team that a really good coach might be able to coach into a an average team, but what really good coach who is established is going to want to waste his time with that?
    Last edited by d_c; 02-09-2010 at 02:47 AM.

  25. #74
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    Default Re: Could Danny take this team to the promise land?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    Well, we're not going to be playing for the 3rd - 6th seed overnight. Most championship teams slowly make their ways into the playoffs as an uphill battle. You make the playoffs and lose...make minor player adjustments. Make playoffs and lose again...make another adjustment. Eventually, you'll tweak the team into championship contention. The Boston Celtics are the only team of recent memories that jumped from a non-playoff team to winning it all.
    Most championship teams first collect the necessary talent and then slowly make their way into the playoffs in some kind of uphill battle. The Lakers, Spurs, Pistons, Heat. They all got the talent first and then developed it.

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