His stock improved? For the loss, here you go.
His stock improved? For the loss, here you go.
Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 02-07-2010 at 03:05 PM.
Shannon Brown is one of the most explosive dunkers in the league. Last time birdman was in the dunk contest he ruined the entire event. who really cares if he is in the dunk contest or not.
yes troy gets traded and Mcbob comes in and is our first option. Makes a ton of sense to me
I'm not sure if I understand what you were trying to say in the first place. I thought you were insinuating that Indy made some type of reach for Tyler. I was simply stating that Tyler would have been gone 3 picks later (I think Chicago was at 16) and that it wasn't inconceivable that he'd have been gone before Indy even picked. As I stated his stock went up (from the 20s you mentioned) when the workouts started; very similar to Blair when teams realized exactly how serious the ACL issues were. DraftExpress and sites like that become less accurate when workouts start as they don't know what teams are thinking after the private workouts about every player. I'm not validating any draft choices only pointing out that Indy was not alone in their interest and belief in Tyler. I'm not heading in any direction, its to early to do so; especially because of Tyler's unfortunate injuries.
Just for the hell of it if I was Indy I would have traded Tyler to Chicago. Then you could have drafted some nice combination such as Lawson and Blair.
I thought there was news coverage on the Bulls offer, but either way rest assurred their was an offer made. I have no knowledge on the Henderson matter, but the Bulls did offer their 2 picks for Tyler on draft night (literally during the Pacers five minute period). If you watch draft night background you can actually see his agent Jeff Schwartz stand up and field some cell phone calls related to the matter during the few minutes before Tyler was chosen. Just because a draft website didn't predict these types of things happening doesn't make it a reality. They make plenty of mistakes and they don't have all the information. I don't see why you are arguing this point, I'm not disagreeing with anything but the simple fact that Indy was not alone in being interested in Tyler. In fact, teams like Chicago and Toronto appeared more interested in him and were willing to "give up more".
Rather or not teams were fighting for Legend, I don't know. What I do know is that reports said Hansbrough blew scout's minds in workouts and that the Nets were contemplating taking him at #11. Perhaps it's all one big conspiracy and Chad Ford is a part of the Pacer's P.R. team. Or perhaps Tyler Hansbrough really did kick *** in workouts and really did impress his way into the lottery.
Hansbrough was never going in the 20s regardless of when he entered the draft. That's because he's much more impressive physically than people (including draft mockers) give him credit for, and which was proven with his (relative to expectations) fantastic pre-draft combine. He came out better than expected in nearly every area, including being over 6'9" in shoes (haters were claiming 6'7"). Combine this with his aforementioned mind-blowing workouts and the fact that he's proven to be productive and a winner, and the intelligent basketball fan understands why Hansbrough was a lottery pick.
As for Gerald Henderson... no idea. He wasn't that impressive at Duke and as we all know, he lead them nowhere. I had him tracked as a late 1st rounder. Looks like Larry Brown may have too.
Sheesh. Blair vs. Hansbrough again?
Haven't we covered this one roughly 100,000 times?
You're caught up in the Internet / you think it's such a great asset / but you're wrong, wrong, wrong
All that fiber optic gear / still cannot take away the fear / like an island song
- Jimmy Buffett
Any talk about Blair on the Pacers is pure folly as long as Jim O'Brien is the coach.
I liked Blair coming in from what I read on here about him but I knew he would never see the floor for other than a few token min. that O'Brien felt forced to use him.
He is NOT a Jim O'Brien type player.
This is why this conversation is a joke. TWill isn't a bust because he can get his shooting % up and his per36 numbers look good. Hans is awful because despite actual production, his shooting % is poor and apparently will never go anywhere.
You look at the kid with turd covered lenses. You trivialize his intangibles, fail to notice the fact that outside of his horrible shooting %, he is making plays and producing in other areas like rebounding. For Tyler, its all about his shooting %, with no room for improvement, no mitigation for the health issues and the lack of training camp. I don't think you can find a thread on this forum that has 3 posts about Hans without you ****ting on him.
Compare your analysis to Josh, who does less every time he hits the floor, has bad rebounding numbers at his position, has been in the league for two more years,and for everyone who isn't a homer, is barely a blip on the radar. But you praise his good dimensions, focus on intangibles, and point out how he can make it big if he fixes a few things.
You are not objective, you did not want Blair, and the guys you did want are remarkably bigger disappointments than Hans. Why are you so fixated on this issue?
Yep. We heard plenty of chatter about Tyler moving up the board from multiple sources on the run up to the draft. If DraftExpress missed it, that's their bad.
Look, he wasn't my pick either (I wanted us to trade out of the draft entirely). But talking about where DraftExpress had him ranked is just silly. It's not a meaningful criteria, especially when the guy you were jocking all last season (TWill) also was picked well ahead of where he was projected for most of the previous season.
TWill didn't move up DE's board 10 spots because he became a different player, he moved up because they heard who was scouting him and who looked like they might pick him. Same thing happened with Tyler, but they missed it. That's their problem, not his.
And I say this as somebody who didn't (and still doesn't) like the pick.
This space for rent.
If it doesn't matter if either player doesn't make it past year 2, then why the **** do you keep bashing this stupid topic every chance you get.
You've not said anything new on the situation for 4 months. GET OVER IT.
Darn right. I've only got one, and some of my posts are excellent!
Though not nearly as excellent as Mr. Sobchak's stroll down memory lane:
Last edited by Putnam; 02-08-2010 at 02:52 PM.
And I won't be here to see the day
It all dries up and blows away
I'd hang around just to see
But they never had much use for me
In Levelland. (James McMurtry)
It does matter. It's called spending money wisely and adding talent that can significantly improve a key area of need.
As for my knocks on Blair as linked above - CONTEXT, and you damn sure know it too. I was going up against people that were flipping out about how perfectly wonderful Blair was, not trying to say don't take him at all.
And if you follow it to the conclusion you see me changing my view on him as I get more familiar with him and begin to consider that he's "plays off" might have as much to do with his need to avoid foul trouble.
Plus, I'm not saying now he's Mr. Perfect. I'm saying he's doing what the Pacers needed, not that he ends every freaking need the team has. He's not Griffin, or what Griffin is supposed to be. He's a SOLID, but not spectacular pick at 13 for one of the 3 teams most in search of a power rebounder.
Blair did take plays off, for rest, foul worries, whatever. But he also had a skill that was 100% applicable to the NBA and I believe I said that as well.
TWILL - NOT A DOUBLE STANDARD. I didn't say Tyler was a flop already, I said that taking him instead of Blair was a big mistake. I also said that if TWill FG% is going to be a make or break for him as a pro. That means that I see his FG% as a dealbreaker and that if it continues he most certainly is a flop.
You guys think you're mad, look at it from my side. I'm not in here every other day posting threads like "Is TWill a shoe-in for the rookie game" or "Is TWill one of the draft steals" or anything remotely close to suggesting that somehow TWill is working out pretty well.
Why? Because so far TWill's FG% is keeping him from working out!!!
The minute I suggest TWill is playing great then you can tell me to STFU. Until then why don't you guys try toning down the "Hans is so wonderful" crap UNLESS YOU THINK TWILL IS ALSO GREAT.
I liked Twill as a PROSPECT. He's struggled as a pro player so far because of his shooting. Man up and say the same thing about Tyler and then we have no more threads with me complaining about his game.
Let's argue the same points.
Hans as great player so far, TWill as great player so far. No.
Hans as flop, Twill as flop. No.
Me starting threads or injecting into threads how strong TWill has been? Nope. People celebrating how good Tyler has been? Happens often.
Would I argue if someone said that Chase or Sam Young were better SG/SF picks than TWill so far, of course not. I'm not making that case, which is why someone like me isn't on the other side losing his s*** about it. The equivilant of me saying "they should have taken Blair" is someone saying the Next should have taken Young or Chase. I won't disagree with that right now.
TWill is literally considered the worst shooter in this rookie class, and he's outshooting Hans. And if you add in the factor of shooting relative to position, Hans is a disaster by PF FG% standards while TWill is just lagging. SF's can linger in the 42-43 range and stick around, that's about the same as a PF going at 48-49%.
I liked Chase as a pick, especially on a trade down. He's doing fine. I also liked Sam Young, another PIT player that inititally I was concerned with on effort but ultimately I was convinced that he was a really nice sleeper to go after. He's also doing well.
HENDERSON and Larry Brown
I liked Henderson as a pick. We literally have no idea because Brown refuses to play him. If you want to stand by Larry Brown's choices on PT for rookies, or really any young players, then let's start the list up of other terrible players according to Larry Brown.
1) Jalen Rose
2) DJ Augustin
3) Raymond Felton
Of course since you see Brown's lack of playing time for Henderson as justification then by all means join me on the Stephen Jackson parade since Brown is given him MORE PLAYING TIME than Rick "love him no matter what" Carlisle. It's the first time in Jack's career that he's hit the 40 mpg mark (Rick gave him 35-36)
What's that? Oh, you don't like that Brown opinion so much any more. No kidding.
Chicago Bears lineman Roberto Garza has played 3 seasons for the Bears without discernable ACL's. (ouch)
Betcha Blair has a short career though. (hope not)
The Pacers were really not in the position to take Blair.
They had to pick the safe choice. They took the non injury prone (oops) guy, the guy with ACLs, the guy who is quite possibly one of the best college basketball players ever. They took the marketable player.
Tyler has some things to work on, but he'll end up..at worst a good sixth man with a long career. I mean, to be fair, there is no way to really "know" that, but at the same time the odds are much greater Tyler has a long career than Blair.
I really think, despite what's happened to Tyler, the Pacers made a good decision. And that in the long run the Tyler/AJ picks will end up better than the possible combo of Ty/Blair.
Blair was a fantasitc pick for the Spurs..who are trying to win a few more championships while they still can. He's not a good pick for a rebuilding team.
Due to a recommendation from a poster I really respect, I'm done with repeating points on this debate. I'd delete my last post but I feel like it's addressing multiple issues of misrepresentation of the core argument, and I'll let it sit as the final point.
This, like Jackson prior, are points that I'm not nearly as concerned with as the posting makes it seem. It's far more driven by posts that I see as either inappropriately too positive about the pick or too dismissive of the options that were there prior to the draft.
I guess it doesn't really matter. Let's let the players resolve the debate over the next 2 months and 2 seasons after. Then either I or someone else can bump this thread.
I will say that my early read on potential misses by me are TWill and Henderson, and to a lesser extent Lawson and Collison. I'm not hiding that fact, though just as it's true for Tyler or any other pick, it's going to take a couple of years to be sure, especially given some of the situations these guys are in.
Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 02-08-2010 at 02:47 PM.
If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..
Wow. You all are really fighting this battle between Blair and Hansbrough.
Why does Blair even get mentioned here? And why does Seth dislike Tyler so much and have unconditional love for McRoberts?
There's just no way I would have taken Blair as a lottery pick and guaranteed contract with no ACLs. It's nice to be able to play hindsight genius on an internet discussion board when you risk nothing, but it's quite another to be in Bird's position. There's no way of knowing how long Blair's legs will hold up because there's not much precedent for this type of condition in pro basketball. It's premature to discuss Tyler's long-term value because no one could have predicted his current health problems and he clearly hasn't had a chance to play much at this point. I am happy with Bird's selection an believe Tyler will eventually be a productive member of the team.
This space for rent.
I've learned that with the Pacers, you have to expect everything to go wrong and stretch out longer than it should. Whether with injuries, games, or trades. You kind of have to expect injuries to last the rest of the season, trades to never happen, and expect to see something awful every single game.
Last edited by Thesterovic; 02-09-2010 at 10:19 AM. Reason: typo
"I keep wondering the same thing. Last week they had the 4th worst record in the league, had an 11.9 percent chance of winning the lottery and were in line to land a franchise type player like Derrick Favors or DeMarcus Cousins. This week? They have a 1.7 percent chance of winning the lottery, have the 8th worst record and are in line to draft Cole Aldrich or Greg Monroe. Way to go Jim O'Brien. Rest Danny Granger the rest of the season (if it isn't too late) and give Josh McRoberts lots of minutes. That ought to do it." - Chad Ford on winning meaningless games
Way to go Jim, you may have just put our franchise back another 4+ years.
After getting blocked 8 times in his 2 game stay in LA, DeJuan Blair now has been blocked 36 times in his last 36 games, but all we ever heard from Seth was Tyler having block against a game average, and now on the season they have basically the same Block per shot average but one player missed camp.