View Poll Results: Which has been the biggest factor

Voters
70. You may not vote on this poll
  • Dun's injury

    0 0%
  • Granger's injury

    0 0%
  • JOB as coach

    21 30.00%
  • Our interior defense

    4 5.71%
  • Our free agent signings

    1 1.43%
  • Lack of talent (Speed)

    9 12.86%
  • JOB as Coach AND a lack of Talent (CableKC)

    15 21.43%
  • Lack of a Team Leader (PacerGuy) (PacerGuy)

    2 2.86%
  • Poor player chemistry (Wells) (Unclebuck)

    2 2.86%
  • The lack of meatloaf. (duke dynamite)

    1 1.43%
  • Missing Jarrett Jack (ChicagoJ)

    4 5.71%
  • all of the above (pwee31)

    7 10.00%
  • John Wall (bellisimo)

    1 1.43%
  • Ron Artest (btowncolt)

    1 1.43%
  • Injuries, team chemistry and lack of veteran experience (NuffSaid)

    2 2.86%
  • Because the Colts get all the attention (Mr_Smith)

    0 0%
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Thread: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

  1. #1

    Default Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    What is the biggest factor been so far that can be contributed to the Pacers losing record?
    JOB is a silly man

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    no consistency, one day the play small ball, next day the play big and then they go back to small ball, benching players one day, playing them next day, feeding Hibbert one day, not feeding him next day, playing defense one day, not playing defense the next game, many, many things are going on with this team.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    So V let me ask you a question. If we had any other coach how many more wins would you expect? Lets say Rick Carlisle for comparison's sake.
    JOB is a silly man

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    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    I don't know if you can chalk it up to just one issue.

    Our interior defense is atrocious, especially when we play Hibbert and Murphy together. Having a real defensive intimidator to pair with Hibbert would pay dividends I think, and I don't think Tyler is that player. Mcroberts would at least be a nice shot blocking presence and a factor on the boards, but he never gets to play. Not that he is the answer either necessarily, just the best option available.

    Then there is PG play, AJ has shown promise but is still a rookie, Earl Watson is a journeyman backup. Solid backup, but you are in trouble if he is the starter. Talent at the PG position is severley lacking.

    Coaching is also a problem. This offense made a lot more sense when dunleavy and murphy were all we had. This is the season where we should have started shifting the focus toward the younger talents. Hibbert has proven himself to just about everyone it seems EXCEPT our coach, who still lacks faith in him. We should be running more of an inside out game now, but Obrien refuses to change course.

    Instead we run and jack threes, and play small lineups with the intent of punishing the other team on the offensive end, except it never happens. We just get punished on the defensive end.

    There are also intangibles. This team lacks the spirit and fight it had last season, I personally think they are fed up with the coach, and they also lack on court leadership (Jarret Jack?)

    I'm sure a lot of people will just say "Lack of Talent" and pat themselves on the back, but I think thats a bit of a cop out, and there is a lot more to it that that if you break it down and really look at it.
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  5. #5
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by jhondog28 View Post
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    So V let me ask you a question. If we had any other coach how many more wins would you expect? Lets say Rick Carlisle for comparison's sake.
    I was actually thinking about this earlier today. It is a good question. if you could have any coach what could this team win this year. I think larry Brown could maybe get 36 wins.

    On the poll question I wrote in player chemistry (Wells) because Mike wells has been talking about it all season long

    Overall, I've been saying since about game 3 of this season that something is not right. The record isn't that bad but the number of times they have been blownout is way too high. That suggests to me either it is a chemistry issue amongst the players or a chemistry issue between the coach and the players. Or a combo of both

    Still though the talent of this team stinks - worse than the past two years. Two years ago we had Mike, last year we had Marquis, jack and Jeff. This year Mike is about 50% Jeff has been out, Ford is benched (he is talented) Tyler is out. Danny has been hurt
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 02-03-2010 at 02:14 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    I agree that there are a number of issues at play here, thats why when I wrote the question I was curious to find out what fans thought was the biggest factor. In otherwards the thing that sticks out more than anything else.
    JOB is a silly man

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    I think injuries in general should be an option. I think if Dun, Granger, Foster, Hansbrough and Murphy are all healthy from the beginning of the season until now, we are still in the hunt for the playoffs.

    That said, I think I might prefer getting a top 5 draft pick just to speed up the rebuilding process.

    Right now we are a team scrambling with just 2 legitimate front line players (Hibbert and Murphy)

    McBob isn't good enough, Solo is a 10th man at best.

  8. #8
    Member ksuttonjr76's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    Mostly the coach, but I won't ignore the injuries either. With a different coach, I believe the team is capable of 40+ win season.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    I'm sure a lot of people will just say "Lack of Talent" and pat themselves on the back, but I think thats a bit of a cop out, and there is a lot more to it that that if you break it down and really look at it.
    This is 100% true, so I'm not arguing...

    But we're talking about an NBA team (or allegedly an NBA-caliber team).

    Talent is a requirement for a competitive team.

    Chemistry and effort and coaching can set the champion apart from the contenders, but without talent its a non-starter.

    I don't care if this team played harder and had better chemistry, the record wouldn't be much better.

    Larry Brown or Carlisle or Karl might have squeezed a couple more wins out of this roster, but not many. And Brownie or Carlisle might also be squeezing so hard that the players would be on verge of tuning them out.

    You don't waste a roster this bad with a "turnaround" style of coach. The burnout will come before the roster is ready for the next level.

    The team lost its second-most-important player from last year (not necessarily the second-best player) and did not replace him. Oh sure, they signed three guys for the price of one shortly after he left. But they didn't replace him.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  11. #10
    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    This is 100% true, so I'm not arguing...

    But we're talking about an NBA team (or allegedly an NBA-caliber team).

    Talent is a requirement for a competitive team.

    Chemistry and effort and coaching can set the champion apart from the contenders, but without talent its a non-starter.

    I don't care if this team played harder and had better chemistry, the record wouldn't be much better.

    Larry Brown or Carlisle or Karl might have squeezed a couple more wins out of this roster, but not many. And Brownie or Carlisle might also be squeezing so hard that the players would be on verge of tuning them out.

    You don't waste a roster this bad with a "turnaround" style of coach. The burnout will come before the roster is ready for the next level.

    The team lost its second-most-important player from last year (not necessarily the second-best player) and did not replace him. Oh sure, they signed three guys for the price of one shortly after he left. But they didn't replace him.
    Some of this is based on "projecting" the youth, but I think we have the makings of a .500 or slightly better team talentwise, given another year of development for Hibbert/Rush/Price/Hansbrough, and a healthy Granger, decent bench, and of course a better coach.

    In other words, I think we have the makings of a team that could get there. The talent upgrade will be required to actually do something once you get there. I see a lot of early playoff exits in that teams future, not unlike the 90s team in the early days.

    However, you must crawl before you can walk. As much as some people want to see this team go from crap to playoff contender overnight, even "first round sweep" level improvement would be encouraging at this point. Doing it with Murphy/Dunleavy leading the way is spinning your wheels, doing it behind Granger/Rush/Hibbert is progress.

    The silver lineing is that hopefully with this season in the toilet, the draft might give us a shot at that talent upgrade. If not? The three year plan is sound, see what free agency and trades can bring you once you have aquired some flexibility.
    Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 02-03-2010 at 03:56 PM.
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  12. #11
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    This is 100% true, so I'm not arguing...

    But we're talking about an NBA team (or allegedly an NBA-caliber team).

    Talent is a requirement for a competitive team.

    Chemistry and effort and coaching can set the champion apart from the contenders, but without talent its a non-starter.

    I don't care if this team played harder and had better chemistry, the record wouldn't be much better.

    Larry Brown or Carlisle or Karl might have squeezed a couple more wins out of this roster, but not many. And Brownie or Carlisle might also be squeezing so hard that the players would be on verge of tuning them out.

    You don't waste a roster this bad with a "turnaround" style of coach. The burnout will come before the roster is ready for the next level.

    The team lost its second-most-important player from last year (not necessarily the second-best player) and did not replace him. Oh sure, they signed three guys for the price of one shortly after he left. But they didn't replace him.


    That is probably your best post ever

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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    This is 100% true, so I'm not arguing...

    But we're talking about an NBA team (or allegedly an NBA-caliber team).

    Talent is a requirement for a competitive team.

    Chemistry and effort and coaching can set the champion apart from the contenders, but without talent its a non-starter.

    I don't care if this team played harder and had better chemistry, the record wouldn't be much better.

    Larry Brown or Carlisle or Karl might have squeezed a couple more wins out of this roster, but not many. And Brownie or Carlisle might also be squeezing so hard that the players would be on verge of tuning them out.

    You don't waste a roster this bad with a "turnaround" style of coach. The burnout will come before the roster is ready for the next level.

    The team lost its second-most-important player from last year (not necessarily the second-best player) and did not replace him. Oh sure, they signed three guys for the price of one shortly after he left. But they didn't replace him.
    Jarret Jack was overrated. Personally, I like D. Jones' intensity and aggressive style better. Once Indiana gets a better coach, I can see D. Jones playing the "enforcer" role from the wing spot. Someone mentioned putting Lebron on his butt when he was clowning us during the Pacers/Cavs. If I had to choose someone to do it who I KNOW would do it, Jones would be my man.

  14. #13
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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    Some of this is based on "projecting" the youth, but I think we have the makings of a .500 or slightly better team talentwise, given another year of development for Hibbert/Rush/Price/Hansbrough, and a healthy Granger, decent bench, and of course a better coach.

    In other words, I think we have the makings of a team that could get there. The talent upgrade will be required to actually do something once you get there. I see a lot of early playoff exits in that teams future, not unlike the 90s team in the early days.

    However, you must crawl before you can walk. As much as some people want to see this team go from crap to playoff contender overnight, even "first round sweep" level improvement would be encouraging at this point. Doing it with Murphy/Dunleavy leading the way is spinning your wheels, doing it behind Granger/Rush/Hibbert is progress.

    The silver lineing is that hopefully with this season in the toilet, the draft might give us a shot at that talent upgrade. If not? The three year plan is sound, see what free agency and trades can bring you once you have aquired some flexibility.
    I agree that our young core can grow up and become more talented. In the future. Right now, they aren't very good and one reason is a lack of experience (and perhaps they aren't really ready for that experience just quite yet.)

    I'm not saying the entire roster needs to be scrapped.

    If TBD/ Rush/ Granger/ Tyler/ Roy with Price/ TBC/ McBob turns out to be a competitive rotation in a couple of years it will be because all of these players grew into thier potential. And that's our best chance to be a contender again soon.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  15. #14
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    Jarret Jack was overrated.
    So was 36-46. But its a helluva lot better than this years' version.

    Personally, I like D. Jones' intensity and aggressive style better. Once Indiana gets a better coach, I can see D. Jones playing the "enforcer" role from the wing spot. Someone mentioned putting Lebron on his butt when he was clowning us during the Pacers/Cavs. If I had to choose someone to do it who I KNOW would do it, Jones would be my man.
    Maybe Dahntay should play hockey. And maybe you should watch hockey. In basketball, that's a foul, and probably a flagrant foul. Very occasionally, it is a good strategy to "take" that foul.

    I wouldn't make a roster choice around "who best to commit a cheap shot or flagrant foul?"

    You don't eliminate Lebron's clowning with an "enforcer," you eliminate it by making the game competitive.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  16. #15
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    That is probably your best post ever
    Oh come on. Better than "This team was built for the regular season"? Just because you were (were? ugh, you still are!) in denial...

    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  17. #16
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    This is 100% true, so I'm not arguing...

    But we're talking about an NBA team (or allegedly an NBA-caliber team).

    Talent is a requirement for a competitive team.

    Chemistry and effort and coaching can set the champion apart from the contenders, but without talent its a non-starter.

    I don't care if this team played harder and had better chemistry, the record wouldn't be much better.

    Larry Brown or Carlisle or Karl might have squeezed a couple more wins out of this roster, but not many. And Brownie or Carlisle might also be squeezing so hard that the players would be on verge of tuning them out.

    You don't waste a roster this bad with a "turnaround" style of coach. The burnout will come before the roster is ready for the next level.

    The team lost its second-most-important player from last year (not necessarily the second-best player) and did not replace him. Oh sure, they signed three guys for the price of one shortly after he left. But they didn't replace him.
    I will never be convinced this couldn't have been a .500 team this year, because the fgws group never got a chance to prove it.

    If Murph gets traded at the deadline and we go on a run, I will be fully convinced JOB prevented us from reaching the playoffs this year.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  18. #17

    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I was actually thinking about this earlier today. It is a good question. if you could have any coach what could this team win this year. I think larry Brown could maybe get 36 wins.

    On the poll question I wrote in player chemistry (Wells) because Mike wells has been talking about it all season long

    Overall, I've been saying since about game 3 of this season that something is not right. The record isn't that bad but the number of times they have been blownout is way too high. That suggests to me either it is a chemistry issue amongst the players or a chemistry issue between the coach and the players. Or a combo of both

    Still though the talent of this team stinks - worse than the past two years. Two years ago we had Mike, last year we had Marquis, jack and Jeff. This year Mike is about 50% Jeff has been out, Ford is benched (he is talented) Tyler is out. Danny has been hurt
    Let me take this a step further. If JOB was coaching the Lakers or Cavs would it prevent them from going deep in the playoffs? The reason I voted the interior defense is I really think that if you had Phil Jackson brught in to coach this team unless he fixes the interior defense there is no way we win a lot more than we are right now.
    JOB is a silly man

  19. #18
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    You fix the interior defense by benching Murph.

    Solo, McBob, Hans, and sometimes Hibbert are all decent defenders.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  20. #19

    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    You fix the interior defense by benching Murph.

    Solo, McBob, Hans, and sometimes Hibbert are all decent defenders.
    Ok then where does your offense come from?
    JOB is a silly man

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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    So was 36-46. But its a helluva lot better than this years' version.



    Maybe Dahntay should play hockey. And maybe you should watch hockey. In basketball, that's a foul, and probably a flagrant foul. Very occasionally, it is a good strategy to "take" that foul.

    I wouldn't make a roster choice around "who best to commit a cheap shot or flagrant foul?"

    You don't eliminate Lebron's clowning with an "enforcer," you eliminate it by making the game competitive.
    Slow your roll. I meant a player who's not scared to get physical with the other player. A player who's ready to go war for the team. A Charles Oakley, Dale Davis, Ron Artest, Ben Wallace, KG, Zo....a player with a mean streak. An individual who will step up when the team is against the ropes and will come back out swinging. Maybe you should starting watching ballet, because right now we have way too many players who dances out of the way of physical contact.

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  23. #21
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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by jhondog28 View Post
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    Let me take this a step further. If JOB was coaching the Lakers or Cavs would it prevent them from going deep in the playoffs? The reason I voted the interior defense is I really think that if you had Phil Jackson brught in to coach this team unless he fixes the interior defense there is no way we win a lot more than we are right now.
    We would win more games, because Phil wouldn't have them jack up so many 3's and give up so many 2nd chance opportunties. We have players who can play interior D (S. Jones, Hibbert, Granger/D. Jones/Rush from the SG/SF, and possibly Hansbrough due to his energy). We just have the wrong coach to teach it.

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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by jhondog28 View Post
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    Ok then where does your offense come from?
    Uh...Hibbert and Hans perhaps?

  25. #23

    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    The team lost its second-most-important player from last year (not necessarily the second-best player) and did not replace him. Oh sure, they signed three guys for the price of one shortly after he left. But they didn't replace him.


    I've said it b4 that Bird and the FO didn't understand the value Jack had on this team. They just plain dropped the ball. Apparently, Bird didn't feel Jack was worth the money and loyalty was.

  26. #24
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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    I know I am in the minority on this, but it is my opinion that if Jack is your second most important player, being a terrible team is pretty much your ceiling.

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    Default Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    I can't see how anyone who has watched some of this year's losing efforts think that they are anywhere close to their ceiling.

    Personally, I have no idea where their ceiling is, since most games they just shoot 35 3s and get destroyed by 20.

    This team was not built to be great, but they can be much better.

    Injuries were pretty ugly as well, and the lack of a leader or any fire from the team's core players was backbreaking.

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