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Thread: Pacers asking too much for Murph

  1. #26

    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    If they think Murphy is that important, then he's worth more than that. I'm with Bird here. We can get a better deal for Murphy than that, whether it's this year or next.
    I agree that Murphy should be worth more but what does NEXT year bring that this year doesn't. His contract will be expiring but outside of that who is going to think of Murphy as the last piece to a championship team, albeit a small piece. Its obvious that the Cavs need to spread the floor but what other teams need that this year or next. Outside of the Cavs it doesn't appear any of the top 4-6 teams do.

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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Sam Perkins could guard centers.
    And he had a better nickname. Okay...fine....then I'll describe Murphy as a similiar player to Kevin Pittsnogle.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    From .45 to 0.392 is a drop of 5.8%. But what does that mean?

    1/0.058 ~= 17.25. Troy shoots 4.5 3FGA per game. 17.25/4.5 is approximately 4 games.

    Every four games, Troy is hitting one fewer three-point shot.

    A decline... yes, absolutely. Noticeable? Only with a calculator.


    So when you want a 3 point specialist, you don't care if they shoot 30% or 36%?

  4. #29

    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I agree that Murphy should be worth more but what does NEXT year bring that this year doesn't. His contract will be expiring but outside of that who is going to think of Murphy as the last piece to a championship team, albeit a small piece. Its obvious that the Cavs need to spread the floor but what other teams need that this year or next. Outside of the Cavs it doesn't appear any of the top 4-6 teams do.
    I think we can get a late first round draft pick for Murphy at any time, honestly. Which is essentially what the Cavs would be trading because we'll most likely buy out Z.

    So therefore, try to get the best deal and don't pull the trigger to quickly. There's no rush for this.

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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    From the Cavs side, Murphy is a good addition for a championship run but likely not someone you go and get by trading away a promising young talent. At this point, I would even be close to considering Murphy for Z straight up just for the cap savings, or Murphy for Z plus a pick (any pick) and we agree to drop Z in a month to re-sign with the Cavs. Sign someone off the NBDL that is hungry and finish out this awful season.

    I just can't see anyone else making an aggressive play for Murphy. No one wants to take on more salary next year due to the free agency bonanza this summer. Who is there besides Cleveland that has a serious chance at the Finals and would be going after Murphy with a fat offer? Cleveland has a lot more leverage on this trade if they are the only one looking to deal for Murphy.

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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    just give me a 12pack for Murphy and we have a deal.............

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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    It seems to me that Bird is telling Cleveland "if you really want Troy, you have to do what I want." I don't think he minds having Troy either if he's looking for more value.

    Washington is being less picky with Cleveland when moving Jamison so it now appears that deal will be made rather than ours. This is probably good news for Cleveland since Jamison was their top choice.

    I would be happy with Hickson and some draft picks, but if Cleveland says no it's no and we're going to have to find another team to make a deal with. Maybe not with Troy included, but someone else who will reasonably give us value in return for a player we deal.

  9. #33

    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by Trophy View Post
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    It seems to me that Bird is telling Cleveland "if you really want Troy, you have to do what I want."

    Washington is being less picky with Cleveland when moving Jamison so it now appears that deal will be made rather than ours. This is probably good news for Cleveland since Jamison was their top choice.

    I would be happy with Hickson and some draft picks, but if Cleveland says no it's no and we're going to have to find another team to make a deal with. Maybe not with Troy included, but someone else who will reasonably give us value in return for a player we deal.
    I thought Jamison was the only player Washington wanted to keep.

    My point is..we can get rid of Murphy for cap space at any time...and we have a year to do it..why not try to actually get something of worth now?

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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I thought Jamison was the only player Washington wanted to keep.

    My point is..we can get rid of Murphy for cap space at any time...and we have a year to do it..why not try to actually get something of worth now?
    It appears that Cleveland still has hopes on getting him, but since Bird actually told Cleveland a deal, they're denying the trade. Washington never actually denied any rumors containing Jamison so it leaves Cleveland with the idea to still get him. Cleveland has many other options that can work. They're looking at Igudala.

    I think Bird wants him here and would want him to return if he can be brought back for a cheaper contract. That is if Tyler still isn't the go-to PF yet.

  11. #35
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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Personally, I would see the Cavs kind of desperate for a player like Murphy or Jamison. They are in need of a 4 that can stretch the defense. If you have noticed (as of late), Z has been shooting a lot of 3's because the paint is just too 'clogged' for Shaq and Lebron
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I thought Jamison was the only player Washington wanted to keep.

    My point is..we can get rid of Murphy for cap space at any time...and we have a year to do it..why not try to actually get something of worth now?
    Technically, you are right....we can get Cap space for Murphy at any time.....either now ( way more easier ) or next season ( much harder ). Realistically, I think that you ( and many others ) aren't seeing the whole picture IF you are looking for clearing enough Cap space to make a Financial and SalaryCap difference in the 2010-2011 season.

    This season...it's quick and simple:

    Option 1 ) Trade him ( or any of the other Big 4 contracts ) for an Expiring 2009-2010 Contract and he's off the books in 2010-2011. Done...TPTB doesn't have to worry as much about any LT concerns they have.

    Next season.....we have 2 options when it comes to trading Murphy.

    Option 2 ) The only REALISTIC AND SUBSTANTIVE way that we can get Cap Space for Murphy is by trading him to a Team with enough SalaryCap space to absorb the majority of his $11 mil 2010-2011 contract. Since the majority of the Teams that can take on Murphy's $11 mil 2010-2011 contract are shopping for Lebron, Bosh, Wade and Amare in Aisle 6 near the Freezer section, what do you think will be the cost for a Team with very valuable CapSpace to take on Murphy's contract? The answer is simple.....a high price.

    Option 3 ) If we don't deal with a Team with SalaryCap space....then this means that we ( at the very least ) we have to take back a contract that is valued at 25% less then what Murphy's 2010-2011 contract is....and what's worse is that it is very likely that the contract lasts beyond the 2010-2011 season. Unless there is a Player with a Longer contract that you'd want on the Pacers as part of the future core that is ( more then likely ) overpaid....then we're going to be forced to take on more Salary.

    If I am missing any other scenarios where we could move any of the Big 4 that would be considered realistic...let me know.

    If there isn't.....for me....option 1 is the only realistic and least costly option. The other options just cost too much for me. I don't think that a 2010-2011 Expiring contract is worth as much as many of you think simply because of the unique 2010-2011 FA market that Teams are saving their SalaryCap space for. That simply leaves dealing with Teams that would be looking for an Expiring contract...or more specifically a Team that is lookign to do a Salary Dump ( literally and proverbially ) on us.

    I don't know about you....but I'd much rather start with a clean slate Financially then continually play "kick the SalaryCap can down the road" for another 2 or 3 seasons or be forced to give up assets ( picks, prospects, $$$ and/or future Capspace ) that we can't afford to give up.

    BTW....despite many Writers/Bloggers saying that Murphy is drawing the most interest on the Team.....I am beginning to doubt that any Teams that were really serious beyond a cursory call...with the exception being the Cavs that appear to have the most interest. Unless I missed or forgot which Teams are interested in Murphy....doesn't anyone find it odd that the Cavs are the only Team that has been mentioned when it comes to him in trade rumors?
    Last edited by CableKC; 02-02-2010 at 01:34 PM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    What about this next year if they don't move Murphy now though.

    Let's say you are convinced Amare is fully recovered and deserves a full max contract. Stay with me, I'm trying to make a point. Phoenix does not think he is worth that, by any means, so they sign and trade him (I think he picks up his 17 million player option for next season) and the Pacers trade Murphy and Dunleavy (expirings) and a future #1 pick for him. Phoenix does it for the #1, Pacers do it for a multi time allstar who plays a position of need.

    Don't get caught up in whether you agree with the trade components or not. My point is this, can't you keep Murphy and still trade him for a player like Amare or Monte Ellis even who Golden State see as overpriced, but may be ready to rebuild. Even if you have to trade Dun and Murph for Magette and Ellis. I mean my point is those expirings still have tons of value, right.

    What about if a team is woefully over the cap next year and just need to shed salary.

    What if Rudy Gay is seen as wanting too much, couldn't you do the same deal with Memphis and sweeten it with a pick?

    Please don't respond to this by saying oh I'd never spend money on Amare or I'd never give up a 1st round pick. I'm talking concept here, execution can be debated later.

    My point is, isn't there scenarios that you can actually use these expirings next year to get instantly better? Isn't that not only an option, but the plan?

    Capspace is meaningless to me unless it turns into a player who can at least contribute somewhat equal to his pay.
    Last edited by Speed; 02-02-2010 at 01:46 PM.

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  16. #38

    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Z and a 1st. would be fine with me, just not this years 1st.
    This is exactly what I want, just in case LeBron leaves Cleveland this summer and the Cav's go back to being a crap franchise. Pacers could have the possibility of getting 2 lottery picks in the 2011 draft.

    :thepacers

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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    His contract will be expiring but outside of that who is going to think of Murphy as the last piece to a championship team, albeit a small piece. Its obvious that the Cavs need to spread the floor but what other teams need that this year or next. Outside of the Cavs it doesn't appear any of the top 4-6 teams do.
    Murphy is hardly the last piece to a playoff team, much less a championship one.

    Look at the borderline 8th/9th seeds in either conference jockeying for the final playoff spot.

    Ask yourself this: Would you say that adding Murphy to any one of those teams all of sudden pushes that team over the top to "secure" that playoff spot or make them the favorite to get it? I just don't get the sense that Troy would all of a sudden be the difference maker. I never have.

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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    What about this next year if they don't move Murphy now though.

    Let's say you are convinced Amare is fully recovered and deserves a full max contract. Stay with me, I'm trying to make a point. Phoenix does not think he is worth that, by any means, so they sign and trade him (I think he picks up his 17 million player option for next season) and the Pacers trade Murphy and Dunleavy (expirings) and a future #1 pick for him. Phoenix does it for the #1, Pacers do it for a multi time allstar who plays a position of need.

    Don't get caught up in whether you agree with the trade components or not. My point is this, can't you keep Murphy and still trade him for a player like Amare or Monte Ellis even who Golden State see as overpriced, but may be ready to rebuild. Even if you have to trade Dun and Murph for Magette and Ellis. I mean my point is those expirings still have tons of value, right.

    What about if a team is woefully over the cap next year and just need to shed salary.

    What if Rudy Gay is seen as wanting too much, couldn't you do the same deal with Memphis and sweeten it with a pick?

    Please don't respond to this by saying oh I'd never spend money on Amare or I'd never give up a 1st round pick. I'm talking concept here, execution can be debated later.

    My point is, isn't there scenarios that you can actually use these expirings next year to get instantly better? Isn't that not only an option, but the plan?
    Good point...that wasn't something I'd consider.....players to be used in a S&T.

    But I counter that we have at least 2 other Big Expiring contracts ( Dunleavy and Ford ) that we could use to match Salaries ( assuming that Foster decides to retire after this season and we get some Relief there ). Dunleavy+Ford's expiring contracts would allow us to take in between $15.25 mil to $23.81 mil in 2010-2011 Salary. So, yes.....I concede that our Big 3/4 Expiring Contracts COULD have more value. But just like the other scenarios that I painted....I think that there will be a greater cost then "just a single 1st round pick" ( which would be a starting point for any Team looking to do a S&T scenario with top tier FAs ).

    Can we afford to give up anything else beyond that if they want more ( which is realistic given what they are giving up )?

    I don't mean to come off as "I am right and you are wrong" when it comes to dumping Murphy for SalaryCap relief. IMHO....I just don't think that we can effectively utilize the Expiring contract like we would have in any other year without costing us something.

    One more thing....a S&T scenario does not fix any LT concerns that I think the Owners will have going into next season.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Capspace is meaningless to me unless it turns into a player who can at least contribute somewhat equal to his pay.
    3 seasons ago, I'd agree....but in today's Cap consious NBA.....SalaryCap/Financial flexibility means more then just having the option to sign FA....having it allows your Team to be involved in other opportunities that could benefit the Team ( see what the Blazers, Clippers and OKS were able to do over the last couple of seasons with Capspace. ). That is what I am looking for here when it comes to SalaryCap/flexiblity so that we are not limited only to improving the team via Draft or FA. I know it's not optimal....but not having that gets us stuck in the situation we are in now.
    Last edited by CableKC; 02-02-2010 at 02:22 PM.
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    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Option 1 ) Trade him ( or any of the other Big 4 contracts ) for an Expiring 2009-2010 Contract and he's off the books in 2010-2011. Done...TPTB doesn't have to worry as much about any LT concerns they have.
    regarding this... i'm wondering whether foster's possibly career-ending injury has removed the urgency to make a luxury tax motivated trade?

    if foster retires for medical reasons, we can remove his salary from the cap one year from the date he last played, which would likely move us under the luxury tax threshold for next season. hence no need to move murph right away.

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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by Baba O'Riley View Post
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    This is exactly what I want, just in case LeBron leaves Cleveland this summer and the Cav's go back to being a crap franchise. Pacers could have the possibility of getting 2 lottery picks in the 2011 draft.
    Which is exactly why the Cavs are probably reluctant to give up any draft picks beyond this season.

    At most, it makes sense....this season, the Cavs can end up with a late 1st round pick....next season....they could end up in a worst situation then they are now.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    My point is, isn't there scenarios that you can actually use these expirings next year to get instantly better? Isn't that not only an option, but the plan?

    Capspace is meaningless to me unless it turns into a player who can at least contribute somewhat equal to his pay.
    i'd say our expiring contracts plus our lottery pick would make a tempting trade package next season, assuming we're willing to move our pick. if not, the expiring contracts won't get a lot back, i think.

    on the cap space front, the latest leaks regarding cba negotiations suggest that player contracts are going to be much smaller starting in 2011. so our 2011 cap space might be able to "buy" more than we previously thought. that's assuming suitable players are available and willing to sign here though, which was your point i guess.

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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    regarding this... i'm wondering whether foster's possibly career-ending injury has removed the urgency to make a luxury tax motivated trade?

    if foster retires for medical reasons, we can remove his salary from the cap one year from the date he last played, which would likely move us under the luxury tax threshold for next season. hence no need to move murph right away.
    count55 would probably have to confirm.....but I suspect that would have some impact on the 2010-2011 LT implications. Removing Foster from the LT equation for next season would probably pull us back from the "brink of falling off the LT cliff". Admittedly, if the S&T scenario is truly what the Pacers are looking for.....Foster retiring would probably allow for us to pursue that option....but again...it comes to how much a S&T scenario for a Top Tier FA would cost us.

    If a S&T scenario is the way to go...my preference is still to dump at least one of the other Big 3 contracts for a 2009-2010 Expiring Contract ( preferably Murphy's to simply give us some breathign room ) and then go for a S&T scenario while including some combination of Ford+Dunleavy ( while likely giving up 2x1st round picks or 1x1st round pick and a prospect ) . Otherwise....dump one of the Big 3 Contracts and let the rest of them expire.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Just end up Murphy for Z and the 29th or 30th pick and I'm in.
    I was also adamat about the same thing. The I started to think "why should we help the Cavs? I understand (or think I do) the luxury tax implactions, but we would be basically giving them the only player in NBA history to be in the top 5 in rebounding and 3pts shooting , for cap space (assuming we would waive Big Z so he can resign with Cleveland)

    If this is all Cleveland is willing to give , then I say Bird is right to decline

    I dont want any of Clevelands draft picks we have enough mediocore talent on the roster and any of Clevelands picks will be bottom of first

    I say we either get Big Z and JJ Hickson for Murphy or we keep him until next year
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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    So when you want a 3 point specialist, you don't care if they shoot 30% or 36%?
    I see what you're getting at. Prior to this morning, I hadn't really considered it. That's not really a discussion of accuracy, though. That's volume.

    In general, I don't want a three-point specialist in the first place. But that's another conversation. Now, I like shooters that are versatile enough to step back and hit a three, but not a "specialist." When I think "three point specialist", I still think of Matt Bullard.
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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I would call dropping from 45% to 39% in 3p% a significant decline.
    Agreed

    Also the biggest decline , at least to me, is his positive attitude
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  29. #48

    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    I was also adamat about the same thing. The I started to think "why should we help the Cavs? I understand (or think I do) the luxury tax implactions, but we would be basically giving them the only player in NBA history to be in the top 5 in rebounding and 3pts shooting , for cap space (assuming we would waive Big Z so he can resign with Cleveland)

    If this is all Cleveland is willing to give , then I say Bird is right to decline

    I dont want any of Clevelands draft picks we have enough mediocore talent on the roster and any of Clevelands picks will be bottom of first

    I say we either get Big Z and JJ Hickson for Murphy or we keep him until next year
    I understand and can even agree with some things, BUT don't sell short the pick. It can be used to draft a player, or it can be used as a trading chip. I don't see Hickson in the equation with the Pacers, but Leon Powe might be gotten. Again, if nothing else he could be used in a trade. I, like you, want the best deal possible, but at the same time I don't want to see the demand so unreasonable that it kills trading Murphy's albatross contract and Jimmy's crutch either.

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  31. #49

    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Also the biggest decline , at least to me, is his positive attitude

    Absolutely! Only a blind person hasn't noticed the change this year. Or one wearing blinders and is so stubborn they can't see the trees for the forest.

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    Default Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    What about this next year if they don't move Murphy now though.

    Let's say you are convinced Amare is fully recovered and deserves a full max contract. Stay with me, I'm trying to make a point. Phoenix does not think he is worth that, by any means, so they sign and trade him (I think he picks up his 17 million player option for next season) and the Pacers trade Murphy and Dunleavy (expirings) and a future #1 pick for him. Phoenix does it for the #1, Pacers do it for a multi time allstar who plays a position of need.

    Don't get caught up in whether you agree with the trade components or not. My point is this, can't you keep Murphy and still trade him for a player like Amare or Monte Ellis even who Golden State see as overpriced, but may be ready to rebuild. Even if you have to trade Dun and Murph for Magette and Ellis. I mean my point is those expirings still have tons of value, right.

    What about if a team is woefully over the cap next year and just need to shed salary.

    What if Rudy Gay is seen as wanting too much, couldn't you do the same deal with Memphis and sweeten it with a pick?

    Please don't respond to this by saying oh I'd never spend money on Amare or I'd never give up a 1st round pick. I'm talking concept here, execution can be debated later.

    My point is, isn't there scenarios that you can actually use these expirings next year to get instantly better? Isn't that not only an option, but the plan?

    Capspace is meaningless to me unless it turns into a player who can at least contribute somewhat equal to his pay.
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