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Ok, it's on Bird now....

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  • #1

    Ok, it's on Bird now....

    Over the past couple of days I have seen things I have NEVER EVER seen, read or heard from this franchise before.

    I have seen employee's of the Pacers organization (both P.R. people and players) openly question the direction of a coach.

    I mean I've set through George Irvin for God's sake and never heard one player or radio or TV person make a comment about the way the team is being coached on the floor.

    Don't get me wrong nobody is saying that Jim O'Brien is an idiot or anything like that but it certainly contrast with what we have seen over the years from the P.R. staff who would be the first to jump on a hand grenade for the franchise.

    If you watch Pacers crate this week with Stacy Paetz as guest you will see the topic of going small be brought up and not a single one of them came close to endorsing it. My opinion of their tone is that none of them supported it for anything other than a temporary fix to an emergency situation. Mark Boyle even goes on to point out that this is NOT a formula for winning with any significance (ie. title) to which Brunner say's we are a couple steps away from that. (Award for understatement of the year for 2010 is already over with btw).

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/crate.html

    I have heard Clark Kellogg all but beg the team to play from the inside out not outside in when he is doing the games. I have even heard Dennari make comments about this.

    This is all on style of coaching btw, fast exterior shots may not be what he wants but his history dictates that is what he gets.

    Then in today's star Danny Granger has just given me the reason for why he has sucked so bad the past few games and to be honest with you I thought it was on him at first but after reading this, he is right.

    Here is the link, with some snippets from the article

    http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...n-small-lineup

    Forward Danny Granger isn't necessarily a fan of that approach full time because it forces him to defend bigger players.

    "It takes its toll," the 6-8 Granger said after struggling to defend Toronto All-Star forward Chris Bosh and Los Angeles 7-footer Pau Gasol. "I like it in stretches because it's been effective for us. I trust our coaches know what's been effective for us. I just have to compensate where we lack when we go small."
    Guarding bigger, stronger players also has affected Granger's offense. He is 13-of-44 from the field in the past three games.
    "It's a different look I get because I'm dealing with heavier guys and they're leaning on you," said Granger, a small forward. "It's one of those things I have to get accustomed to. It takes a toll on your legs and you're trying to push with your arms. You're taking hits. It's hard enough to box them out."

    There is much more to that article so please read it and no I am not making any claim that Danny is rebelling or anything of the like.

    However I want to focus on the part I have highlighted here.

    Listen to what he is saying, now think back to your recent Pacers history and think about if Jeff Foster's back is in the shape it is in now because of the relentless pounding by players much larger than him and the Pacers constantly asking him to do what he should never have been asked to do.

    Think about Jermaine O'Neal bulking up to try and compensate for the fact that the Pacers never got anyone to help muscle players around and then ask yourself if maybe this didn't hurt his time on the floor here.

    People this is no longer about meaningless wins the rest of this season, we are now talking about the long term health of a player who right now is our franchise player.

    Do any of us think getting a few more wins (like that is even happening) this season is worth the risk of asking Danny to play out of position in a season where he is already trying to compensate for another injury?

    To me from this day forward this is no longer on O’Brien’s shoulders, this is on Bird's.

    Just like you can't ask a caterpillar to be a condor, you can not expect a coach who is so ingrained into one way of doing things to just change on his own.

    According to O'Brien they talk everyday to make sure that they are on the same page. Well it's time for Larry to tell Jim that his job is safe, he doesn't have to risk the future of the franchise for some short term meaningless gain.

    This season is lost. I'm sorry but it is. It has been really since November but it without a doubt it went down the crapper with that first 8 game losing streak.

    The rest of the east has started to move on and now the 7th & 8th seeds are either at or above .500% a figure that we are not going to obtain this season.

    I do NOT want Danny Granger shortening his career just so Jim can milk out 3-5 more wins this season. I say shortening his career not in the sense that this year or even in the next couple of years he will have problems, but I don't want to get 4-5 years down the road and all of a sudden he has no lift and has to miss several games and can't play back to backs because he is suffering from the ill affects of a lower back injury.

    To quote Nancy Reagan it's time for Bird to just say no.

    No to playing Mike Dunleavy, D. Jones and Danny Granger at the 4 spot for anything other than situational plays.

    You paid money for both Solomon Jones and Josh McRoberts this off season. You didn't just pay for them to be on a practice squad. No, neither player is the answer to our problems but between the two of them they can give you 20 min. a night between the 5 and 4 spot so that Danny doesn't have to spend time there.

    Obviously Foster and Hansbrough being out hurts, I give Jim full credit for that. In fact he has had a crap sandwich for player health this season to deal with. But at some point in time you have to not think about the moment and start realizing there is a long term plan here and it is a LONG 82 game season.

    But to ask Jim to do this would be to ask him to state that grass is not green. It's not his fault, this is what he knows, it's what he believes and guess what nobody is even denying that he may be right for a short time. But while it may help squeak out a game or two here or there it does nothing to really improve the overall standing of the team and IMO is causing long term health problems for the team.

    So while it is his job to win games, it is Larry's job to look out for the long term interest of the team.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Ok, it's on Bird now....

    Originally posted by Peck View Post
    Forward Danny Granger isn't necessarily a fan of that approach full time because it forces him to defend bigger players.

    "It takes its toll," the 6-8 Granger said after struggling to defend Toronto All-Star forward Chris Bosh and Los Angeles 7-footer Pau Gasol. "I like it in stretches because it's been effective for us. I trust our coaches know what's been effective for us. I just have to compensate where we lack when we go small."
    Guarding bigger, stronger players also has affected Granger's offense. He is 13-of-44 from the field in the past three games.
    "It's a different look I get because I'm dealing with heavier guys and they're leaning on you," said Granger, a small forward. "It's one of those things I have to get accustomed to. It takes a toll on your legs and you're trying to push with your arms. You're taking hits. It's hard enough to box them out."
    Been hoping that he would come out and say this, I can see spot minutes at the 4 but not as much as he has been.

    Originally posted by Peck View Post
    Listen to what he is saying, now think back to your recent Pacers history and think about if Jeff Foster's back is in the shape it is in now because of the relentless pounding by players much larger than him and the Pacers constantly asking him to do what he should never have been asked to do.
    Thought this has been obvious for awhile now.

    Don't think I can say anything else about playing guys out of position that hasn't already been said by half the people on this forum.

    Thanks for posting this!

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Ok, it's on Bird now....

      But....but....but......Danny played the 4 during THE FIVE GAME WIN STREAK!

      I thought the concensus was that JOB was an idiot for not playing Danny at the 4. I'm so confused.
      PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Ok, it's on Bird now....

        I am only going to say one thing. This forum is not in agreement about anything except in regards to the coach. But some love the small lineup, many only love certain small lineups, some hate all small lineups.

        The 5 game winning streak was a small lineup - The lineup D. Jones wanted to get back to and that was with Granger playing PF.

        It seems to me that what everyone wants (and I am not endorsing anything here, just making an observation) is Murphy gone and most in this forum will be happy with whatever is played after that

        is argument over small vs large or Murphy vs Roy

        Confused

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Ok, it's on Bird now....

          Several veiled and not so veiled shots at the coaching staff. Danny also said this. Which to me is an endictment of the coaching staff that he is getting mixed messages.

          http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...ugh-off-season

          "Sometimes I've been told I try to do too much and then sometimes I don't do enough," he said. "It's a process that's somewhat confusing in a way, especially with the ups and downs of the team. It is tough and it's a challenge."

          Granger struggles through off season

          He is contending with injury, team's growing pains

          By Mike Wells
          Posted: January 29, 2010

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Ok, it's on Bird now....

            Don't think of it as "going small." Think of it as


            SUPER-LINEUP XVIII!!!



            .
            And I won't be here to see the day
            It all dries up and blows away
            I'd hang around just to see
            But they never had much use for me
            In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Ok, it's on Bird now....

              Originally posted by MagicRat View Post
              But....but....but......Danny played the 4 during THE FIVE GAME WIN STREAK!

              I thought the concensus was that JOB was an idiot for not playing Danny at the 4. I'm so confused.
              I think I was wrong. I think I didn't give enough credit to what it would physically do to Danny.

              Then I look back, and 4 of the 5 wins were against teams with small front courts. Only Boston was big, and at least that featured an injured, perimeter-favoring Garnett. Otherwise you had the Knicks, Wizards, Warriors, and Nets (who started their own 3-wing lineup that night due to injuries).

              The argument of which lineup is better in the short-term is still obvious: Danny at the 4 > Murphy at the 4.

              However, now reality sets in with the physical toll that takes on Danny, and that's the point where I face that reality and jump off the bandwagon.

              I wrongly thought it wouldn't bother him this much this soon.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Ok, it's on Bird now....

                Originally posted by MagicRat View Post
                But....but....but......Danny played the 4 during THE FIVE GAME WIN STREAK!

                I thought the concensus was that JOB was an idiot for not playing Danny at the 4. I'm so confused.
                Danny at the 4 makes this team better in the moment, in given match ups. It's more of lacking enough talent to compete without some kind of gimmick, plus your talent, (limited as it is), is more towards the smallish side. So downsizing allows you to play where your talent is.

                The issue is two-fold the way I see it.

                One, opposing teams are figuring it out. They are marching Danny right to the front of the rim and posting him up. Watch Bosh tonight. So the effectiveness is not long term, it's a gimmick, which usually means it can be adjusted for, and teams are.

                Two, is what Peck is saying and Danny for that matter, it's really wearing Danny down. This will effect Danny this year, but increase the wear and tear over time too.

                There is also this, imho, when you wear a guy down, he has to start doing things his body isn't really made for, so injuries can happen by over extending your body.

                For example, If I can run a mile without much effort, I have a less likelihood of getting injured, my body knows how to do it without great strain. If all of sudden, I'm running the mini, I'll likely lose form as I tire and could very easily pull something, sprain something. I think it's just the nature of it. I think that's a very real concern for Danny.

                So it's two things. Long term degredation of your body and short term injury susceptibility.

                This said, I was all for Danny playing the 4, after being way against it. I was for it because in a moment they are better for it (see Danny basically shutting down Bosh, several games ago, in the 4th quarter). The reasons they are better for it, is Danny is an exceptional player and even playing out of position, he's better than any 4 on the team currently, imho.

                However, I now see the negatives outweigh the short term gain, especially when it becomes the way you play all the time, not a one quarter in an occasional game thing.

                It's like this, another analogy, If Tim Raines, a career great lead off hitter, was taken from 1st in the line up to 4th (clean up) because you didn't have a home run threat on your team. It's maybe good that Tim could hit some home runs at a decent pace, but he's swinging for the fence every at bat and it messes up his swing, plus now you have an average lead off hitter and an average clean up hitter. Instead of a GREAT lead off hitter and a below average clean up hitter. Sure you can see it as an improvement, but is it really? Or is it fools gold that's actually messing up your best hitters swing? Plus, as Raines gets worn out swinging away every at bat, he pulls a back muscle cuz he's fatigued and trying to command his body to do something more than what is naturally comfortable.

                Anyway, I completely agree with Peck. I'm starting feel bad for Obie though, since, I don't know if there are any right answers for him and what his options are with this team. Doesn't mean they don't need a change after the season, but Obie has pushed a bunch of different buttons and really nothing is working.
                Last edited by Speed; 02-02-2010, 09:56 AM.

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                • #9
                  Re: Ok, it's on Bird now....

                  Get the freaking hint, Bird!

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Ok, it's on Bird now....

                    Oh and evidence for not making a guy something he's not is Jeff Foster, JO, and Rik Smits feet problems I believe started when he tried to put on muscle. I hope Danny isn't added to this list. It seems irresponsible.

                    Murphy tried to bulk up two seasons ago to only then be told by Obie he needed to be quicker and be able to get up and down the court. I think I remember Bird saying he needed to get stronger at the end of the first season and then Obie telling him the opposite the start of season two. Evidence of disconnect.

                    Makes me think of Bird/Carlise saying we don't have to have Milk drinkers then a year later, only wanting milk drinkers.... Tons of other examples. Kind of rudderless, sometimes.

                    I have an underlying thought that I'll throw out, but not get into until the off season likely....

                    Bird's simplistic arrogance has really caused and is causing a ton of the problems the Pacers have. I don't see him changing either.

                    Sorry not trying to hijack the thread at all, but "OK, its on Bird now" sure makes me think of a bunch of things that's happened since his reign.

                    GMs not liking to work with him, Mel Daniels being let go, Obie and Bird talk all the time, but Bird didn't know if Dick H was involved in the Defense.

                    I mean has Bird been too simplistic in saying things are this way or that and too arrogant to move off that position until it was/is too late. I'd say ya, without a doubt. Hence, Obie is not getting fired: translation :I will stick with that statement/decision until it's dying breath.

                    I like decisive straightforward midwestern mindset, no wishy washiness is nice. It's also stupid when you don't listen to anyone or move off of your position when it's proven wrong.

                    Another words, if the plane is going down in flames, I really don't need to hear what a great reliable engine it has and how we are going to stick with this make and model of plane no matter what as we cascade towards the mountains.
                    Last edited by Speed; 02-02-2010, 10:15 AM.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Ok, it's on Bird now....

                      The problem isn't the lineups the coach uses it is the players, especially at the big positions, that are available. I said before the season that our players at the 4 and 5 as a groupt are the worst in the NBA. And that was with Foster

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Ok, it's on Bird now....

                        I don't think Troy is a bad player nor is he the teams problem, actually I don't want to see him go unless we get something of value back. Most of his problems are related to being misused, he is not a center, shouldn't be on the floor with Hibbert and not playing more than 30 minutes. All of those expose his weaknesses and take away from what he does well.

                        I personally don't like the small lineup and half the forum may be too many that don't like it, but I know others don't agree with Danny, Dun, DJones playing the 4 spot. As I said earlier I can see it working with Danny for a couple minutes a game. (maybe the other team has a small lineup or really need an offensive lift) I want too see McBob or Solo (Hans when he is good to go) on the court with Hibbert or Murph, I know neither one of them are very good both are young and raw. But they also both have potential, size and and can D up 4s and 5s better than anyone else we have. (excluding Foster and Roy on some 5s)

                        And while I'm on a bit of a rant COULD THE REST OF THE TEAM FOLLOW EARL AND DJONES LEAD AND ATTACK THE F'in BASKET ohh and FEED HIBBERT THE BALL IN THE POST 1 OUT OF 3 TIMES WE HAVE THE BALL atleast till we can figure out if its worth it.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: Ok, it's on Bird now....

                          After seeing this title, I got excited thinking Peck was going to lower the boom on Bird. Alas, it wasn't the type of thread I had envisioned about Bird at all from the title. That's not saying it isn't a nice thread, but just not what I was expecting from the title.

                          My feeling is it's been on Bird from the day DW left the Pacers orgainization. Sorry, Mr. Walsh's about using your initials but an old habit is hard to break, but no disrepect intended. I could even see Mr.Bird seemed to have a plan, but somewhere that plan must have changed. As the title of this thread says, "It's on Bird now". Oh how true!

                          I understood Bird's hands were tied with how much money the Simons were going to allow him to spend coming into this season. I understand the "massive" # of injuries the franchise has had to the team to deal with this season. BUT what I don't understand is why you Mr. Bird is/has allowed Jimmy to coach this team in such a putrid manner. The last time I checked Mr. Bird, you were Jimmy's boss, and part of your job description Mr. Bird is direction of this team and it's coach. The way this team is playing it "is on you Mr. Bird", period. The buck stops on your desk Mr. Bird, and you have bungled it serverely. By allowing Jimmy to coach this team the way he has, it is a crime... punishable by termination... both of you. You have given your approval to the way this team is playing that has garnered a whopping 16-32 record with such terrible play it's sickening to even watch the team play. I repeat sickening! By allowing Jimmy to play his helter skelter run n gun with little "D" sickening game, you have become his ENABEABLER saying you approve of it and to continue doing it! As a person, one has to take credit for the BAD as well as take credit for the good of their actions. I don't know how much worse it can get under your leadership, BUT I know one thing "I seen enough to last me a life time of your blunders and poor management skills!" So YES Mr. Bird it's on you... ALL OF IT. Wouldn't you rather be golfing and fishing in Florida? Hint hint.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Ok, it's on Bird now....

                            The only thing that is different at this point is that the Pacers are slowly allowing their media contacts to state the obvious and change their tone regarding how our team is being mismanaged on the floor (due to a combination of unsound strategy and rotations and a lack of players capable of playing the way the coaching staff demands) and the impacts on player performance and health that are being caused by this mismanagement. In my opinion, there are few revelations that have not been discussed here at PD previously, whether there is universal agreement here on these issues or not. Generally, though, it seems like the darker the overall viewpoint of the poster, the more likelihood that they have already been posting frequently regarding these issues for a long time.

                            Note the silence from Bird recently. He is obviously deep in negotiations on trades at this point, but what will he do when he is unable to complete any trades due either to asking for too much or simply not having players that other teams want? This situation screams for a change, and the team is beginning to signal with its media contacts that things are not right. With Bird having given his coaching staff his blessing (hopefully due to financial constraints), what else can change? The franchise risks further alienation of the very small fan base that they are trying to lure back with cheap tickets if they stand pat, so what will they do?

                            At this point, I would not be surprised if nothing happens at all prior to the trade deadline. Then, the way out for the franchise is possibly for Bird to step down during the upcoming offseason (just as Mel Daniels allegedly told Vescey would happen) and whoever steps in to run the team (assuming that there is a team here after the negotiations with the CIB conclude at the end of April) fires the coaching staff and installs a new one that they feel is more what the fans who are left would want, and then begin the process of actually planning for what to do player wise going forward.

                            Things will come to a point where something has to give, even in the eyes of the front office. I am not certain that the front office has quite concluded that it has actually reached that point yet, but it must be getting closer or the tone of its media would not have changed recently.

                            We shall see.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Ok, it's on Bird now....

                              Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                              The problem isn't the lineups the coach uses it is the players, especially at the big positions, that are available. I said before the season that our players at the 4 and 5 as a groupt are the worst in the NBA. And that was with Foster
                              I thought it was because of Foster.



                              Only Hibbert is worthwhile, and he's still a 24-26 mpg guy with youthful inconsistency. If you've got 96 minutes to divide up and Roy accounts for 26 of them, what happens to the other 70?

                              (That's a hypothetical question. Don't answer it.)
                              Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                              Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                              Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                              Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                              And life itself, rushing over me
                              Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                              Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

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