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Thread: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

  1. #26

    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

    I'd like Dampier for 3--4 years at 9-10 a season. That I could live with. Anything longer or more I want nothing to do with Dampier.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

    You guys that would not trade Bender as the primary player in a trade for Dampier have got to be absolutely nuts.

    Bender is a redundant player on our roster.

    Bender is NOT capable of playing SG on the defensive end of the floor. He would also have problems putting the ball on the floor against opposing SGs, although he could post them up if one-on-on situations presented themselves.

    Although SF is Bender's natural position, he has problems guarding most SFs away from the basket.

    As for PF, nearly every PF in the league can take advantage of Bender anywhere near the basket. Bender does not have the base (butt and legs) to prevent opposing PFs from establishing position.

    As far as I'm concerned, the only thing Bender is good for on the defensive end of the floor is the occassional block he provides in help defense. He is an absolutely pathetic one-on-one defender.

    Let's look at where Bender would fall in a depth chart at each position he might play.

    SG 1. Miller 2. Jackson 3. Artest 4. FJones 5. Bender
    SF 1. Artest 2. Jackson 3. Bender 4. Croshere
    PF 1. O'Neal 2. Croshere 3. Bender (maybe)

    IMO, even though Croshere has bulked up enough that he has problems playing SF defensively, he is still able to play perimeter SFs better than Bender.

    I repeat.... Bender is a redundant player.

    Now let's summarize what we would get from Dampier. It's a toss-up, but I think Dampier would be at least a part-time starter at center. And that's being conservative; he'd probably be THE starter.

    Dampier provides significantly better defense at his position than Bender can provide at ANY position. Without scoring, Dampier still makes a significant contribution.

    Without scoring, Bender leaves his coaching staff scratching their heads wondering why in the hell he's still on the roster.

    We need more beef up front. Harrison was acquired as a future resolution of that need, perhaps 2 years down the road. Trading Bender for Dampier addresses a need that we have on our roster without creating a bigger hole elsewhere after the trade.

    If Jeseus Christ were here right now telling me that we should keep Bender over acquiring Dampier, I'd tell him the same thing I'd tell you guys.

    You're absolutely freakin' nuts.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23
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    You guys that would not trade Bender as the primary player in a trade for Dampier have got to be absolutely nuts.

    Bender is a redundant player on our roster.

    Bender is NOT capable of playing SG on the defensive end of the floor. He would also have problems putting the ball on the floor against opposing SGs, although he could post them up if one-on-on situations presented themselves.

    Although SF is Bender's natural position, he has problems guarding most SFs away from the basket.

    As for PF, nearly every PF in the league can take advantage of Bender anywhere near the basket. Bender does not have the base (butt and legs) to prevent opposing PFs from establishing position.

    As far as I'm concerned, the only thing Bender is good for on the defensive end of the floor is the occassional block he provides in help defense. He is an absolutely pathetic one-on-one defender.

    Let's look at where Bender would fall in a depth chart at each position he might play.

    SG 1. Miller 2. Jackson 3. Artest 4. FJones 5. Bender
    SF 1. Artest 2. Jackson 3. Bender 4. Croshere
    PF 1. O'Neal 2. Croshere 3. Bender (maybe)

    IMO, even though Croshere has bulked up enough that he has problems playing SF defensively, he is still able to play perimeter SFs better than Bender.

    I repeat.... Bender is a redundant player.

    Now let's summarize what we would get from Dampier. It's a toss-up, but I think Dampier would be at least a part-time starter at center. And that's being conservative; he'd probably be THE starter.

    Dampier provides significantly better defense at his position than Bender can provide at ANY position. Without scoring, Dampier still makes a significant contribution.

    Without scoring, Bender leaves his coaching staff scratching their heads wondering why in the hell he's still on the roster.

    We need more beef up front. Harrison was acquired as a future resolution of that need, perhaps 2 years down the road. Trading Bender for Dampier addresses a need that we have on our roster without creating a bigger hole elsewhere after the trade.

    If Jeseus Christ were here right now telling me that we should keep Bender over acquiring Dampier, I'd tell him the same thing I'd tell you guys.

    You're absolutely freakin' nuts.

    Might say the same about you
    Guess you missed it BUT WE JUST TRADED HARRINGTON!!!!!!!!!!!
    GUESS WHAT?
    Bender is no longer redundent!
    "scoring only" - guess you missed the Detroit series where we would have paid a million dollars for someone that could put the ball in the hole for 1 game.
    We are a loaded DEFENSIVE team. An "unstoppable" (yeh we wish) offensive talent is a precious gem on this team.
    He's 24 y/o and yet to touch his potential.
    Dampier is as good as he's going to get, or soon to be declining. He had a career year when his contract was up. I'm not impressed.
    What are his CAREER averages?
    He's good, and would be nice to have.
    but not even CLOSE to being worth 10 mil.
    [edit=467=1090040414][/edit]

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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23
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    As for PF, nearly every PF in the league can take advantage of Bender anywhere near the basket. Bender does not have the base (butt and legs) to prevent opposing PFs from establishing position.
    Bender 7'0" 219 (I read he was in the 220's mid season)

    Marcus Camby 6'11" 225

    Chris Bosh 6'10" 211

    Keon Clark 6'11" 221

    Tyson Chandler 7'1" 235


    He not much lighter than any of these guys and he has more natural athletic ability than most all those guys but maybe Bosh. They can all play PF.

    Do you guys realize that the only guys on the team that are younger than Bender are James Jones and the rookie Rashad Wright and only by one year.

    It took JO 5 years before he contributed anything. I'm not ready to give up on Bender for a slow, stoned hand center that might never have a better year than last year.


    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

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    I dunno if we would want to give up on JB so early.We have Harrison and I think we should try to get Vlade.I forgot about Vlade untill Anthem brought it up.But I don't think we should trade JB just yet.He could and a think we as Pacer fans are praying he has a breakout year.What if he averaged 13-15 ppg that would be huge for us.(I doubt he will)
    Too freakin' early?

    That's classic.

    What part of 5 years don't we understand?
    What part of the physical difference of a young man at age 23 vs age 18 do YOU not understand??ed:
    Please tell me taht you watched Bender this year.

    Uh, yeh. And if you cant tell the difference even from LAST year, then there's little point in discussing it further................

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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop
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    Quote Originally Posted by beast23
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    As for PF, nearly every PF in the league can take advantage of Bender anywhere near the basket. Bender does not have the base (butt and legs) to prevent opposing PFs from establishing position.
    Bender 7'0" 219 (I read he was in the 220's mid season)

    Marcus Camby 6'11" 225

    Chris Bosh 6'10" 211

    Keon Clark 6'11" 221

    Tyson Chandler 7'1" 235


    He not much lighter than any of these guys and he has more natural athletic ability than most all those guys but maybe Bosh. They can all play PF.

    Do you guys realize that the only guys on the team that are younger than Bender are James Jones and the rookie Rashad Wright and only by one year.

    It took JO 5 years before he contributed anything. I'm not ready to give up on Bender for a slow, stoned hand center that might never have a better year than last year.


    Save your breath. SOme of these guys will never get it. And if he does break out, they'll say they always liked him. Really.

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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

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    I dunno if we would want to give up on JB so early.We have Harrison and I think we should try to get Vlade.I forgot about Vlade untill Anthem brought it up.But I don't think we should trade JB just yet.He could and a think we as Pacer fans are praying he has a breakout year.What if he averaged 13-15 ppg that would be huge for us.(I doubt he will)
    Too freakin' early?

    That's classic.

    What part of 5 years don't we understand?
    What part of the physical difference of a young man at age 23 vs age 18 do YOU not understand??ed:

    I assume you're talking about the fact that as he gets older, even at the young age of 23, his body is already breaking down?
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Freddies
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    Save your breath. SOme of these guys will never get it. And if he does break out, they'll say they always liked him. Really.

    Since that will never happen I don't feel there's any giant leap to be made here.

    And if he WAS going to break out (which he won't) it'd be at PF anyway. Seems like you already have one of those - maybe you'd prefer to deal JO?
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

    What I will say is that if he does miraculously break out, being a 53-year-old life-long Pacer fan, I will be the happiest guy here.

    And I will be man enough to get on here and eat crow for as long as you guys want to dish it out. Nothing, and I mean nothing, could make me happier than to suddenly see that we have one more viable player on our roster.

    But being someone who would like to live another 25-30 years, please excuse me if I don't hold my breath.

    Based on what I perceive will be permanent inabilities to play perimeter defense, I agree with Peck and all the others that Benders best long-term shot at stardom probably is as a PF.

    But as for the other PFs listed above, even though they all have similar weights as Bender, there is not one in the group that is not capable of pushing Bender all over the paint. Each is capable of moving Bender anywhere they want him. And they are not even among the best at their position.

  10. #35
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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

    What the heck, I haven't gone on an extended Bender post in several years.

    BTW - beast23 - don't expect any of the Bender worshippers to ever come on here and admit they were wrong. He could be 35, still playing 35 games a year, average 7 points and 1 spectacular dunk per game and they'll still say next year will be his breakout season. Two years ago I posted some extended info on why I felt that Bender would absolutely never be an effective perimeter player and his only chance of doing anything would be in the post but that was very doubtful.

    I don't know how many responses I had that consisted of "You're rushing to judgement THIS will be hyis breakout year." That was two breakout years ago.

    Anyway, in outline form:

    a) Why Bendwer will never be an effective perimeter player.
    1) Poor ballhandler
    2) Lacks quickness
    3) Is easily neutralized by 6-5 through 6-7 players
    4) Can't defend there
    5) Is an everage shooter

    Keep in mind that all of the above apply to Jon Bender the SG or SF. It changes radically at PF where he is an above average shooter, ballhandler and quick for the position.

    If teams defend Bender tight on the perimeter he's useless. Completely. He's a pretty fair shooter when given a lot of space and once he gets going with the dribble he can be hard to stop. But teams who play him close with a SG or SF destroy him. He can't dribble against them and he's a lousy shooter when pressured. If he developed a post game and took those 6-6 guys inside to shoot over him it would be a different story but now I think the odds of him doing even that are slim - he doesn't have the mindset to be a physical player on the inside - not offensively. He gives up position way to easily and you never see him really battle in the post on offense.

    I could walk through every team in the league and tell you which ones he'd have success against. If it's a soft defensive team that doesn't play hard man defense he'll do well. He can get space for his shot and once he gets his first step going he's hard to stop one-on one. Teams like Dallas, the Clips, G-S or the Knicks he can be successful against.

    Teams that play tough man-to-man defense eliminate him as a factor. Detroit, Miami, San Antonio, NO, etc. He can't dribble or get space for his shot.

    BTW - I'm coming to believe that even I was wrong about him. Two years ago I thought he could be an effective perimeter player off the bench - sort of a Tim Thomas type. He could come off the bench, provide some instant offense before teams adjusted to him (which would create other matchup problems) and be a solid 6th or 7th man, capable of 10-12 ppg.

    I no longer think that.

    Oh, and yes, he is 7 feet tall and can jump. He'd probably do very well in the 7-footer jumping sport. If someone would invent that sport I think he'd be a superstar - maybe something where you run up and down the floor and jump up to ring a little bell 11 feet high. You'd have a demon.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  11. #36
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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

    It's funny. I've been pretty much in exact agreement with Rimfire on Bender. Right now, I've moved away from that extreme a bit. More into the "well, I've seen a few glimpes..." Maybe I've been worn down by the whole thing. Heck, what's a few more years... But I'll still be suprised if he does "break-out". I hope he does, but I'm not holding my breath. One things for sure, with Al gone, he has is opportunity this year. If he doesn't "break-out" now, he never will.

    But that's not why I don't want to trade him for Dampier. I just don't want Dampier, see above.
    [edit=22=1090079684][/edit]
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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

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    I dunno if we would want to give up on JB so early.We have Harrison and I think we should try to get Vlade.I forgot about Vlade untill Anthem brought it up.But I don't think we should trade JB just yet.He could and a think we as Pacer fans are praying he has a breakout year.What if he averaged 13-15 ppg that would be huge for us.(I doubt he will)
    Too freakin' early?

    That's classic.

    What part of 5 years don't we understand?
    What part of the physical difference of a young man at age 23 vs age 18 do YOU not understand??ed:

    I assume you're talking about the fact that as he gets older, even at the young age of 23, his body is already breaking down?

    Goddanm some of you have short memories. Bender was a STICK when he came here. What did he weigh, 180lbs?? He was an honest 7' tall and the least physically ready to play high schooler to come out. (that I can think of).
    In those years he's put on about 30lbs(?) of muscle and looked NOTICABLY BIGGER last year than the previous year. (for those of you capable of noticing such development )
    Gee, ya THINK being 7' and skinny as hell MIGHT be a problem in the NBA?????

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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

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    Save your breath. SOme of these guys will never get it. And if he does break out, they'll say they always liked him. Really.

    Since that will never happen I don't feel there's any giant leap to be made here.

    And if he WAS going to break out (which he won't) it'd be at PF anyway. Seems like you already have one of those - maybe you'd prefer to deal JO?

    Go back to Knickland dude. Jermaine is a CENTER.

  14. #39

    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

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    It's funny. I've been pretty much in exact agreement with Rimfire on Bender. Right now, I've moved away from that extreme a bit. More into the "well, I've seen a few glimpes..." Maybe I've been worn down by the whole thing. Heck, what's a few more years... But I'll still be suprised if he does "break-out". I hope he does, but I'm not holding my breath. One things for sure, with Al gone, he has is opportunity this year. If he doesn't "break-out" now, he never will.

    But that's not why I don't want to trade him for Dampier. I just don't want Dampier, see above.
    I have never agreed more with a post. And Rimfire's, too.

    And Freddiestheman.....Bender is STILL a stick. Just a little bigger stick. But not much.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

    Good post Rim. A lot of the same reasons that I have also stated over the last 2-3 years.

    Seems like once upon a time, you and I were the only two persistent voices taking ouir stance on this issue.

    With each passing year, the voices are numbering greater and are getting louder.

    Right now, I don't see the Pacers winning the battle to get Dampier. I guess we can only hope that Bender does do something. Otherwise, we hope for something to happen in February or next summer.

    But it would appear he will be here for now. Very unfortunate.

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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

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    BTW - beast23 - don't expect any of the Bender worshippers to ever come on here and admit they were wrong.

    Not sure if I am a "Bender worshipper". But if I turn out to be wrong, you know I will admit I was wrong. I have admitted it in the past and will again.


  17. #42

    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

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    BTW - beast23 - don't expect any of the Bender worshippers to ever come on here and admit they were wrong.

    Not sure if I am a "Bender worshipper". But if I turn out to be wrong, you know I will admit I was wrong. I have admitted it in the past and will again.
    UB, I really do hope you are right in this case.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

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    BTW - beast23 - don't expect any of the Bender worshippers to ever come on here and admit they were wrong.

    Not sure if I am a "Bender worshipper". But if I turn out to be wrong, you know I will admit I was wrong. I have admitted it in the past and will again.

    Second that. For the FIRST time, he will have real, regular minutes, and the NEED for him to produce.
    If he hasn't shut you all up after this season, I'll gladly say I was wrong.

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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

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    Go back to Knickland dude. Jermaine is a CENTER.
    Golly, I thought JO made the all star team as a forward. And I swear JO is listed as a F-C on the Pacer's roster. Gee, what do they know!

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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

    I don't know why you are all arguing using the word "if" and words of that nature. I mean c'mon there is no way of knowing untill it happens. If this and if that is not proving anything.

    It does take awhile to get use to the NBA. I mean its the best players in the world. Everyone said certain seasons were going to be breakout seasons but he was 3rd string. This year is 2nd string and healthy. Injuries plague alot of players but you don't hear anyone talking bout VC up in Toronto and how he is falling out. (I remember he went on the IR and was seen at a Nelly concert dancing.....)

    Bender will be worth the 5 year wait.....

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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

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    BTW - beast23 - don't expect any of the Bender worshippers to ever come on here and admit they were wrong.



    Not sure if I am a "Bender worshipper". But if I turn out to be wrong, you know I will admit I was wrong. I have admitted it in the past and will again.

    Second that. For the FIRST time, he will have real, regular minutes, and the NEED for him to produce.
    If he hasn't shut you all up after this season, I'll gladly say I was wrong.
    I third that, I'm not a Bender apologist, I just don't want to trade him for Damp. If he doesn't contribute this year I'll be as mad at him as anybody.
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

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    Go back to Knickland dude. Jermaine is a CENTER.
    Golly, I thought JO made the all star team as a forward. And I swear JO is listed as a F-C on the Pacer's roster. Gee, what do they know!
    JO is listed at center and he did play center more than he did power forward. Big Ben is listed at center but he played most of his minutes at PF.

    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

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    Go back to Knickland dude. Jermaine is a CENTER.
    Golly, I thought JO made the all star team as a forward. And I swear JO is listed as a F-C on the Pacer's roster. Gee, what do they know!
    JO is listed at PF, but he did play center more than he did power forward. Big Ben is listed at center but he played most of his minutes at PF.
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Will
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddies
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    Go back to Knickland dude. Jermaine is a CENTER.
    Golly, I thought JO made the all star team as a forward. And I swear JO is listed as a F-C on the Pacer's roster. Gee, what do they know!
    Here you are ripping on Rim's credibility with,
    J.O.'s a center....Now that is funny!

    He may drift to center at times, but is a true PF!

    [edit=29=1090092177][/edit]
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

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    Default Re: Latest on Dampier to the Pacers

    I'm still hopeful Bender can at least be what Al was, if not a bit better. I've just learned not to expect it.

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